Re: Non-english license and documents

2006-05-24 Thread Jamie Jones
On Tue, 2006-05-23 at 15:22 -0400, Joe Smith wrote:
 Jamie Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 
 news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Based on my understanding of Japanese law, the original document being
 in Japanese is the one that is legally binding, even if the author makes
 an English translation. Other jurisdictions may accept a hypothetical
 English translation, but in the event of a dispute, the correct terms
 are in the Japanese version.
 
 I assume that the author could in theory make the English document 
 caniconical,
 and the Japanese version non-binding. Would this be corretct?

As I understand it, in Japan, no. Of course that assumes the author is
fluent in English, which may not be the case.

It has been my experience that no English documents (excluding the
constitution of Japan) have any legal status. 

Would your country (if it has one official language) accept documents
written in another language, without a government certified
translation ? Mine does not.  

Regards
-- 
Jamie Jones
Proprietor
E-Yagi Consulting
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Re: Non-english license and documents

2006-05-24 Thread Jamie Jones
On Tue, 2006-05-23 at 15:21 -0400, Joe Smith wrote:
 Jamie Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 
 news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Only if an adequate
  English version was available [1], pruning the Japanese docs would be
  an option IMO (and only because ~99.9% of Japanese people have good
  command of English).
 
 You must have a very different experience of Japanese people then I do.
 If we talk percentages using my immediate family as an example, only 33%
 of them speak any English, and of that, only 16% would speak what is
 considered good English. Far less then the ~99.9% you quote.
 
 In short dropping the Japanese docs should not be an option even if an
 English version is available.
 
 Well, remember that there are four distinct parts to language comprehension.
 Reading, writing, listening, and speaking.

Perhaps you feel I don't understand this, but as I deal with this on a
daily basis, I assure you I understand this very well, more so then most
monolingual people would.

 
 Reading is easier than writing, and listening is easier than speaking.

Debatable. It very much depends on the person and how they learn a
language. I'd argue that listening, and speaking are easier, then
reading and writing. Don't believe me ? Watch children learn their first
(or second) language, they always speak second, after listening first.
Very different to formal language classes.


 I suspect that some of your family can understand English far better than 
 they can produce it.

Yes, that's the 17% that don't speak good English. While it is common
for most Japanese to attend an English class, that by no means enables
them to understand it, after all, it is not the language they use to
carry out their daily duties.

 
 Japanese's relationship with English is complicated. There is regular 
 English, transliterated English,
 and several transliterated English words have been adopted by the Japanese 
 language.

I really see no difference between how Japanese and English languages
evolve. They both adopt useful words from other languages, sometimes
changing the meaning in the process.

 
 I have heard of some Japanese product manuals written entirely in 
 transliterated English! (Using kana. This is a bit annoying to
 US importers of the product, who would prefer real English, or at the very 
 least, transliterated English written in romaji. [Normal English speakers 
 could probably guess the original English word often enough to understand 
 the sentences.]) 
 

Well, the importer could a gotten a sample product first to determine if
they would need to translate the manual themselves. Then we could debate
which dialect of English should be used, that used in the Commonwealth
and former colonies, or that used by the USA and former colonies.


This has been a fascinating learning experience for me. I've discovered
that it seems that people believe that it is ok to insist on changing
the language of a document into English, because they don't understand
the language it is in. It also shows there is a widespread belief that
most if not all Japanese understand English, so it is ok to remove
Japanese documentation. In the words of an exasperated Japanese person I
know while stuck trying to express themselves in English What makes
English so fucking great ? I have my language too!

What I'd like these people to do for a moment is assume you speak a
language other then English as your only language, say an East-Asian
one, Chinese, Japanese or Korean. Now, you are packaging some software,
but the license is in English. Do you insist the author re-write the
license in your language and remove the English version? Why/Why Not ? 

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Re: Non-english license and documents

2006-05-24 Thread Jamie Jones
On Wed, 2006-05-24 at 14:52 +0800, Ying-Chun Liu wrote:
 Jamie Jones wrote:
  On Tue, 2006-05-23 at 13:27 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
  
 On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 02:30:50PM +1000, Jamie Jones wrote:
 
 In the event of any license related issues perhaps caused by
 mis-translation, the Japanese version is the canonical version that must
 be followed.
 
 Isn't this the case only if someone else than the author translated
 the license?
  
  
  Based on my understanding of Japanese law, the original document being
  in Japanese is the one that is legally binding, even if the author makes
  an English translation. Other jurisdictions may accept a hypothetical
  English translation, but in the event of a dispute, the correct terms
  are in the Japanese version.
  
  IANAL, TINLA.
  Regards,
 
 Many of the non-English speaking countries only accept the law terms
 written in their official languages. What should I do if I want to
 package the software if the license in every files in the source tarball
 is non-English? Should I paste the non-English license to debian-legal
 for comments? Or should I ask the upstream author to remove the
 non-English version and add an English one? What is the proper way?
 
 Thanks,
 Ying-Chun Liu
 

You should do the exact same thing as if the license was written in
English. You leave the license in the source, solicit feedback from
-legal (which may take a while), and see if you can get an unofficial
translation from a translation team.

To be perfectly honest, had the license been written in English, you'd
have never asked this question, would you ? Why is the process any
different for other languages.

Regards
-- 
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Proprietor
E-Yagi Consulting
ABN: 32 138 593 410
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Re: Non-english license and documents

2006-05-23 Thread Jamie Jones
On Mon, 2006-05-22 at 22:10 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
 On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 10:32:18PM +0800, Ying-Chun Liu wrote:
  Second, the javadoc documents coming with the source files are Japanese.
  Should I prune the documents or include them? How do I include them?
 
 Please, keep them.  Removing documentation is a disservice to the
 users, even if only a part of them can read it.

I second keeping them.

   Only if an adequate
 English version was available [1], pruning the Japanese docs would be
 an option IMO (and only because ~99.9% of Japanese people have good
 command of English).

You must have a very different experience of Japanese people then I do.
If we talk percentages using my immediate family as an example, only 33%
of them speak any English, and of that, only 16% would speak what is
considered good English. Far less then the ~99.9% you quote.

In short dropping the Japanese docs should not be an option even if an
English version is available.


  But in every *.java (source code) the license is written in
  Japanese (same as the license shown on the Japanese page). Because
  I'm not good at Japanese, so I can't make sure the license in
  Japanese is free or not. Is there any way to deal with the problem
  without asking the upstream author to change the source files?
 
 FTPmasters and our debian-legal mavens tend to REALLY look down upon
 removing license notices from source files.  If we have a license in
 English that came from the author (and thus is legally binding), the
 Japanese copy is harmless, and it will get compressed away by tar|gz
 so disk space is not a concern as well.  Of course, let's have a
 Japanese-speaking person take a look at the text, but IMHO you don't
 need to bother about any accuracy higher than this looks to be the
 same as the English version.

In the event of any license related issues perhaps caused by
mis-translation, the Japanese version is the canonical version that must
be followed.

Regards,
-- 
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ABN: 32 138 593 410
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Re: Non-english license and documents

2006-05-23 Thread Jamie Jones
On Tue, 2006-05-23 at 13:27 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
 On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 02:30:50PM +1000, Jamie Jones wrote:
  In the event of any license related issues perhaps caused by
  mis-translation, the Japanese version is the canonical version that must
  be followed.
 
 Isn't this the case only if someone else than the author translated
 the license?

Based on my understanding of Japanese law, the original document being
in Japanese is the one that is legally binding, even if the author makes
an English translation. Other jurisdictions may accept a hypothetical
English translation, but in the event of a dispute, the correct terms
are in the Japanese version.

IANAL, TINLA.
Regards,
-- 
Jamie Jones
Proprietor
E-Yagi Consulting
ABN: 32 138 593 410
Mob: +61 4 16 025 081
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Handling of GnuWin32 source packages

2006-03-14 Thread Jamie Jones
On Tue, 2006-03-14 at 00:28 +0100, Volker Grabsch wrote:

 The extra work of duplicate security fixes is IMHO very small
 compared to the additional infrastructural work of keeping lots
 of Debian packages win32 portable, duplicating maintaining work
 which is already done by the GnuWin32 project.

Is it really that much more work then what is required keep Debian
packages portable to both the Hurd and Freebsd kernels ? There already
is a free implementation of a Win32 kernel at ReactOS
( http://www.reactos.org/xhtml/en/index.html ) so it's not a non-free
kernel anymore (although granted it is not a *NIX style kernel)

Regards,
-- 
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Re: performance tip for the package development stage

2005-05-21 Thread Jamie Jones
On Sat, 2005-05-21 at 14:28 +0300, Shachar Shemesh wrote:

 Personally, I wouldn't use this for compiling the package after you have 
 done with the debian related development, but the ccache author claims 
 it's totally safe for that as well.

I haven't had any problems with ccache on my unoffical packages, so it
should be fine.

Another very useful program if you have multiple computers is distcc, it
farms out compilation jobs to speed compiling up. I found a nice write
up here http://www.debian-administration.org/?article=112 ccache is also
mentioned here http://www.debian-administration.org/?article=129

To get the best benefit you would probaly want to configure your system
so when you call gcc/g++ it goes ccache - distcc - gcc/g++

Jamie

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Re: build test

2005-04-28 Thread Jamie Jones
On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 16:29 +0300, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:

No problems. Built the new package on amd64. Still some warnings in
avinfo.c about cast from pointer to integer of different size

Jamie
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Script started on Thu 28 Apr 2005 14:24:52 UTC
]0;[EMAIL PROTECTED]: /home/jamie/avinfo(devel_ubuntu_hoary_amd64)[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]:~/avinfo# sudo pbulilder build avinfo_1.0.a15-1.dsc
W: /home/jamie/.pbuilderrc does not exist
I: using fakeroot in build.
pbuilder-buildpackage/amd64 $Id: pbuilder-buildpackage-funcs,v 1.15 2005/01/04 
01:47:18 dancer Exp $
$Id: pbuilder-buildpackage,v 1.110 2005/01/04 01:47:18 dancer Exp $

Current time: Thu Apr 28 14:25:15 UTC 2005
pbuilder-time-stamp: 1114698315
Building the build Environment
 - extracting base tarball 
[/home/jamie/chroots/pbuilder/ubuntu-hoary-amd64/base.tar.gz]
 - creating local configuration
 - copying local configuration
 - mounting /proc filesystem
 - mounting /dev/pts filesystem
 - policy-rc.d already exists
 - created buildresult dir 
:/home/jamie/chroots/pbuilder/ubuntu-hoary-amd64/result/
Obtaining the cached apt archive contents
Installing the build-deps
 - Attempting to parse the build-deps : pbuilder-satisfydepends,v 1.18 
2003/04/20 03:40:36 dancer Exp $
 - Considering  debhelper (= 4.0.0)
   - Trying debhelper
 - Considering  bison
   - Trying bison
 - Installing  debhelper bison

Reading package lists... 0%
Reading package lists... 100%
Reading package lists... Done

Building dependency tree... 0%
Building dependency tree... 0%
Building dependency tree... 50%
Building dependency tree... 50%
Building dependency tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
  debconf-utils file gettext gettext-base html2text intltool-debian libmagic1 
m4 po-debconf
Suggested packages:
  dh-make cvs gettext-doc
Recommended packages:
  libmail-sendmail-perl
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  bison debconf-utils debhelper file gettext gettext-base html2text 
intltool-debian libmagic1 m4 po-debconf
0 upgraded, 11 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 0B/3310kB of archives.
After unpacking 10.9MB of additional disk space will be used.

debconf: delaying package configuration, since apt-utils is not installed
Selecting previously deselected package libmagic1.
(Reading database ... 8075 files and directories currently installed.)
Unpacking libmagic1 (from .../libmagic1_4.12-1_amd64.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package file.
Unpacking file (from .../archives/file_4.12-1_amd64.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package gettext-base.
Unpacking gettext-base (from .../gettext-base_0.14.1-6_amd64.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package m4.
Unpacking m4 (from .../archives/m4_1.4.2-1_amd64.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package bison.
Unpacking bison (from .../bison_1%3a1.875d-1_amd64.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package debconf-utils.
Unpacking debconf-utils (from .../debconf-utils_1.4.42ubuntu4_all.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package html2text.
Unpacking html2text (from .../html2text_1.3.2a-1_amd64.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package gettext.
Unpacking gettext (from .../gettext_0.14.1-6_amd64.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package intltool-debian.
Unpacking intltool-debian (from .../intltool-debian_0.30+20040213_all.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package po-debconf.
Unpacking po-debconf (from .../po-debconf_0.8.17_all.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package debhelper.
Unpacking debhelper (from .../debhelper_4.2.28ubuntu4_all.deb) ...
Setting up libmagic1 (4.12-1) ...

Setting up file (4.12-1) ...
Setting up gettext-base (0.14.1-6) ...

Setting up m4 (1.4.2-1) ...

Setting up bison (1.875d-1) ...

Setting up debconf-utils (1.4.42ubuntu4) ...

Setting up html2text (1.3.2a-1) ...

Setting up gettext (0.14.1-6) ...

Setting up intltool-debian (0.30+20040213) ...
Setting up po-debconf (0.8.17) ...
Setting up debhelper (4.2.28ubuntu4) ...
 - Finished parsing the build-deps

Reading package lists... 0%
Reading package lists... 0%
Reading package lists... 94%
Reading package lists... Done

Building dependency tree... 0%
Building dependency tree... 0%
Building dependency tree... 50%
Building dependency tree... 50%
Building dependency tree... Done
gnupg is already the newest version.
devscripts is already the newest version.
sudo is already the newest version.
fakeroot is already the newest version.
fakeroot is already the newest version.
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Copying back the cached apt archive contents
Copying source file
- copying [avinfo_1.0.a15-1.dsc]
- copying [./avinfo_1.0.a15.orig.tar.gz]
- copying [./avinfo_1.0.a15-1.diff.gz]
Extracting source
dpkg-source: warning: no utmp entry available and LOGNAME not defined; 

Re: build test

2005-04-27 Thread Jamie Jones
On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 16:54 +0300, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
 If somebody tests it on archs different from i386 or Sparc it
 will help me a lot! If somebody decides to sponsor it that will
 be even better ;-)
 
Builds on amd64.

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Re: build test

2005-04-27 Thread Jamie Jones
On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 00:23 +1000, Jamie Jones wrote:
 On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 16:54 +0300, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
  If somebody tests it on archs different from i386 or Sparc it
  will help me a lot! If somebody decides to sponsor it that will
  be even better ;-)
  
 Builds on amd64.
 
Oops. Forgot to attach the build log earlier.

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Script started on Wed 27 Apr 2005 15:58:18 UTC
]0;[EMAIL PROTECTED]: /home/jamie/avinfo(devel_ubuntu_hoary_amd64)[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]:~/avinfo# sudo pbuilder build avinfo_1.0.a15-1.dsc
W: /home/jamie/.pbuilderrc does not exist
I: using fakeroot in build.
pbuilder-buildpackage/amd64 $Id: pbuilder-buildpackage-funcs,v 1.15 2005/01/04 
01:47:18 dancer Exp $
$Id: pbuilder-buildpackage,v 1.110 2005/01/04 01:47:18 dancer Exp $

Current time: Wed Apr 27 15:58:29 UTC 2005
pbuilder-time-stamp: 1114617509
Building the build Environment
 - extracting base tarball 
[/home/jamie/chroots/pbuilder/ubuntu-hoary-amd64/base.tar.gz]
 - creating local configuration
 - copying local configuration
 - mounting /proc filesystem
 - mounting /dev/pts filesystem
 - policy-rc.d already exists
 - created buildresult dir 
:/home/jamie/chroots/pbuilder/ubuntu-hoary-amd64/result/
Obtaining the cached apt archive contents
Installing the build-deps
 - Attempting to parse the build-deps : pbuilder-satisfydepends,v 1.18 
2003/04/20 03:40:36 dancer Exp $
 - Considering  debhelper (= 4.0.0)
   - Trying debhelper
 - Considering  bison
   - Trying bison
 - Installing  debhelper bison

Reading package lists... 0%
Reading package lists... 100%
Reading package lists... Done

Building dependency tree... 0%
Building dependency tree... 0%
Building dependency tree... 50%
Building dependency tree... 50%
Building dependency tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
  debconf-utils file gettext gettext-base html2text intltool-debian libmagic1 
m4 po-debconf
Suggested packages:
  dh-make cvs gettext-doc
Recommended packages:
  libmail-sendmail-perl
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  bison debconf-utils debhelper file gettext gettext-base html2text 
intltool-debian libmagic1 m4 po-debconf
0 upgraded, 11 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 0B/3310kB of archives.
After unpacking 10.9MB of additional disk space will be used.

debconf: delaying package configuration, since apt-utils is not installed
Selecting previously deselected package libmagic1.
(Reading database ... 8075 files and directories currently installed.)
Unpacking libmagic1 (from .../libmagic1_4.12-1_amd64.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package file.
Unpacking file (from .../archives/file_4.12-1_amd64.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package gettext-base.
Unpacking gettext-base (from .../gettext-base_0.14.1-6_amd64.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package m4.
Unpacking m4 (from .../archives/m4_1.4.2-1_amd64.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package bison.
Unpacking bison (from .../bison_1%3a1.875d-1_amd64.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package debconf-utils.
Unpacking debconf-utils (from .../debconf-utils_1.4.42ubuntu4_all.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package html2text.
Unpacking html2text (from .../html2text_1.3.2a-1_amd64.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package gettext.
Unpacking gettext (from .../gettext_0.14.1-6_amd64.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package intltool-debian.
Unpacking intltool-debian (from .../intltool-debian_0.30+20040213_all.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package po-debconf.
Unpacking po-debconf (from .../po-debconf_0.8.17_all.deb) ...
Selecting previously deselected package debhelper.
Unpacking debhelper (from .../debhelper_4.2.28ubuntu4_all.deb) ...
Setting up libmagic1 (4.12-1) ...

Setting up file (4.12-1) ...
Setting up gettext-base (0.14.1-6) ...

Setting up m4 (1.4.2-1) ...

Setting up bison (1.875d-1) ...

Setting up debconf-utils (1.4.42ubuntu4) ...

Setting up html2text (1.3.2a-1) ...

Setting up gettext (0.14.1-6) ...

Setting up intltool-debian (0.30+20040213) ...
Setting up po-debconf (0.8.17) ...
Setting up debhelper (4.2.28ubuntu4) ...
 - Finished parsing the build-deps

Reading package lists... 0%
Reading package lists... 0%
Reading package lists... 94%
Reading package lists... Done

Building dependency tree... 0%
Building dependency tree... 0%
Building dependency tree... 50%
Building dependency tree... 50%
Building dependency tree... Done
gnupg is already the newest version.
devscripts is already the newest version.
sudo is already the newest version.
fakeroot is already the newest version.
fakeroot is already the newest version.
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Copying back the cached apt archive contents
Copying source file
- copying [avinfo_1.0.a15-1.dsc]
- copying [./avinfo_1.0.a15.orig.tar.gz

Revision control systems and Debian packages

2005-04-13 Thread Jamie Jones
Can anybody suggest some good revision control systems for maintaining
Debian packages. I'm about to outgrow using RCS on the debian directory
and wanted to get an idea of what other maintainers are using for their
packages.

Thanks

Jamie
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Re: Revision control systems and Debian packages

2005-04-13 Thread Jamie Jones
On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 08:39 -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
 On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Christoph Berg wrote:
  Re: Jamie Jones in [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Can anybody suggest some good revision control systems for maintaining
   Debian packages. I'm about to outgrow using RCS on the debian directory
   and wanted to get an idea of what other maintainers are using for their
   packages.
  
  svn-buildpackage.
 
 or tla-buildpackage (using bazaar, NOT tla) for that matter.
 
 Read http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/scm.html to help you make up your mind
 about which...

Thank You. That was an interesting read. I'll give subversion a try
first as it's closer to what I'm used to.

Jamie
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Re: Revision control systems and Debian packages

2005-04-13 Thread Jamie Jones
On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 14:31 +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
 also sprach Jamie Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.04.13.1317 +0200]:
  Can anybody suggest some good revision control systems for maintaining
  Debian packages. I'm about to outgrow using RCS on the debian directory
  and wanted to get an idea of what other maintainers are using for their
  packages.
 
 http://arch.debian.org/arch/private/srivasta/
 http://debian.madduck.net/pkg-zope/wiki/Arch/Package
 
Thanks, those are excellent links for using revision control systems
with Debian Packages. It would be nice if they were linked to in the FAQ
or NM guide, because I didn't find anything like that with google.

Jamie
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Re: reassigning bugs

2005-03-30 Thread Jamie Jones
On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 10:23 -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
 On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Jeroen van Wolffelaar wrote:
  This should be better documented indeed, but most if not all tools
 
 Time to file a bug report.  What is the package responsible for the BTS
 documentation on the web?

I would assume it is either the www.debian.org pesudo-package or the
bugs.debian.org pesudo-package.

My rational is that if it is on the website then www.debian.org is
responsible, but it affects the bts so bugs.debian.org is responsible.

Pick one, the other or both :) If it's wrong then it will get
reassigned.
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Directing bug reports away from the Debian BTS

2005-03-08 Thread Jamie Jones
G'day,

I maintain a few unoffical Debian packages. Before I make my repository
available to the world, I'd like to ensure that if someone runs
reportbug on one of my packages, it will email me, and not the Debian
BTS.

The packages are targeted at sarge or better.

Thank you for your kind assistance

Jamie

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Re: Directing bug reports away from the Debian BTS

2005-03-08 Thread Jamie Jones
On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 18:28 -0800, Don Armstrong wrote:
 On Wed, 09 Mar 2005, Jamie Jones wrote:
  G'day,
  
  I maintain a few unoffical Debian packages. Before I make my repository
  available to the world, I'd like to ensure that if someone runs
  reportbug on one of my packages, it will email me, and not the Debian
  BTS.
 
 See /usr/share/doc/reportbug/README.Developers;
 
 Basically, you want a Send-To: foobts.foobar.org or whatever in
 /usr/share/bug/$package/control;
 
 Alternatively, add a Bugs: and Origin: field to your control file so
 reportbug (and otherfrontends) will know to read it and send bugs to
 the appropriate location.
 
Excellent.

Thank you Don.

In case anyone was intrested a list of my packages is here
http://eyagi.bpa.nu/~jamie/doomsday.html

Jamie

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