Re: How to tell users that ia32-libs will go away
Goswin von Brederlow wrote: Also lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Nov 13 2010 /lib/ld-linux.so.2 - /lib32/ld-linux.so.2 and lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Nov 13 2010 /lib/ld-linux.so.2 - /lib/i486-linux-gnu/ld-linux.so.2 conflict. Currently libc6:i386 only Replaces libc6-i386. Which means that installing libc6:i386 and then removing it again leaves biarch in a non-functioning state. If the two packages do no Break/Conflict then diversions or alternatives need to be used. Both of which I don't like for what is a transtion. I see. Is this filed as a bug? I'm surprised the Replaces is needed. Symlinks act like directories in dpkg most of the time, and multiple packages are allowed to share a directory. Thanks, Jonathan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-mentors-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120302094330.GN5248@burratino
Re: How to tell users that ia32-libs will go away
On 2012-03-02 10:43 +0100, Jonathan Nieder wrote: Goswin von Brederlow wrote: Also lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Nov 13 2010 /lib/ld-linux.so.2 - /lib32/ld-linux.so.2 and lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Nov 13 2010 /lib/ld-linux.so.2 - /lib/i486-linux-gnu/ld-linux.so.2 conflict. Currently libc6:i386 only Replaces libc6-i386. Which means that installing libc6:i386 and then removing it again leaves biarch in a non-functioning state. If the two packages do no Break/Conflict then diversions or alternatives need to be used. Both of which I don't like for what is a transtion. I see. Is this filed as a bug? Does not seem so. I'm surprised the Replaces is needed. Symlinks act like directories in dpkg most of the time, Only symlinks to directories, not symlinks to regular files. and multiple packages are allowed to share a directory. They can share a symlink if the target is the same in all packages and is a directory. Neither is the case here. Cheers, Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-mentors-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/877gz39ulj@turtle.gmx.de
Re: How to tell users that ia32-libs will go away
Jonathan Nieder jrnie...@gmail.com writes: (replying on -mentors) Hi Goswin, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: Having multiarch packages and ia32-libs installed will lead to some confusion. The runtime linker will not be able to differentiate between multiarch or ia32-libs libs. One of /usr/lib32/ and /usr/lib/i486-linux-gnu/ will be first in the search path and libs will be taken from there preferably. The multiarch dirs come before the biarch dirs. See glibc-package r4683 for details (prefix biarch-compat.conf with zz_ so that is is sorted last, 2011-05-24). [...] Are there any objections to adding a debconf message to ia32-libs with a short message and reference to a Debian wiki page on how to transition to multiarch? Yes, as devref explains, that is debconf abuse. Please use NEWS.Debian.gz and README.Debian instead. [..] 4) Should we have some Breaks/Conflicts between multiarch and bi-arch packages? No, I don't see why. Because of the above mentioned problem that the runtime linker will mix libraries from multiarch and bi-arch. With the multiarch directory being searched first binaries needing bi-arch libraries will get some multiarch libraries mixed in and cause random crashes. Also lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Nov 13 2010 /lib/ld-linux.so.2 - /lib32/ld-linux.so.2 and lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Nov 13 2010 /lib/ld-linux.so.2 - /lib/i486-linux-gnu/ld-linux.so.2 conflict. Currently libc6:i386 only Replaces libc6-i386. Which means that installing libc6:i386 and then removing it again leaves biarch in a non-functioning state. If the two packages do no Break/Conflict then diversions or alternatives need to be used. Both of which I don't like for what is a transtion. Thanks for your work and hope that helps, Jonathan MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-mentors-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87mx89y5kv.fsf@frosties.localnet
Re: How to tell users that ia32-libs will go away
Thibaut Paumard mlotpot.n...@free.fr writes: Le 09/02/12 15:53, Goswin von Brederlow a écrit : Hi, now that a multiarch dpkg has been uploaded to experimental it looks like we can finaly get rid of ia32-libs* for wheezy. !!!HURAY!!! The problem now is the transition: 1) multiarch and ia32-libs are incompatible [...] What this means is that users that want to use multiarch should remove ia32-libs (and lib32* really) soonest. Couldn't you make ia32-libs a meta-package pulling the multiarch version of the libs it used to include ? Waiting on ftp-master confirmation for this. The idea (see earlier in the thread) was to have Package: ia32-libs Architecture: amd64 Depends: ia32-libs-i386 Package: ia32-libs-i386 Architecture: i386 Depends: libfoo, libbar, libbaz, ... Multi-Arch: foreign The trick with an extra package would avoid the not yet permitted Depends: libfoo:i386 syntax. MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-mentors-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87ipixy5ez.fsf@frosties.localnet
Re: How to tell users that ia32-libs will go away
Dear ftp-master, I wonder if the solution below for transitioning ia32-libs to multiarch would be OK in regards to DAK and testing transition etc. Any technical problems why we couldn't make an exception for the 3 ia32-libs* packages for this? Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org writes: On Thu, Feb 09, 2012 at 04:43:04PM +0100, Thibaut Paumard wrote: Le 09/02/12 15:53, Goswin von Brederlow a écrit : now that a multiarch dpkg has been uploaded to experimental it looks like we can finaly get rid of ia32-libs* for wheezy. !!!HURAY!!! The problem now is the transition: 1) multiarch and ia32-libs are incompatible [...] What this means is that users that want to use multiarch should remove ia32-libs (and lib32* really) soonest. Couldn't you make ia32-libs a meta-package pulling the multiarch version of the libs it used to include ? This would require something like Depends: libpam0g:i386, libssl098:i386, [...] and this syntax is not yet supported (intentionally, because there's a lot of policy that needs to be put in place before we allow such things). Ubuntu, faced with the same issue, kludged a bit to make upgrades possible. Package: ia32-libs Architecture: amd64 Depends: ia32-libs-multiarch Package: ia32-libs-multiarch Architecture: i386 Multi-Arch: foreign Depends: libpam0g, [...] This doesn't require us to support :arch syntax for dependencies anywhere yet; it just requires that the i386 arch is enabled via multiarch, and that the package manager is able to resolve the fact that ia32-libs' dependency is satisfied by the only copy of ia32-libs-multiarch available, the i386 one. However, this still introduces at least some of the same policy problems - for instance, britney has to be taught that this is ok if you want to be able to migrate this package to testing automatically. And you need a multiarch-capable package manager installed and configured *before* you can upgrade this package, so that requires a two-step upgrade of some variety: either holding ia32-libs back until after the dist-upgrade, or upgrading the package manager before the dist-upgrade. MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-mentors-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87wr7vgc2x.fsf@frosties.localnet
How to tell users that ia32-libs will go away
Hi, now that a multiarch dpkg has been uploaded to experimental it looks like we can finaly get rid of ia32-libs* for wheezy. !!!HURAY!!! The problem now is the transition: 1) multiarch and ia32-libs are incompatible Having multiarch packages and ia32-libs installed will lead to some confusion. The runtime linker will not be able to differentiate between multiarch or ia32-libs libs. One of /usr/lib32/ and /usr/lib/i486-linux-gnu/ will be first in the search path and libs will be taken from there preferably. As a result binaries might end up with the wrong version of a library and potentially break. As time goes on the problem will only get worse. What this means is that users that want to use multiarch should remove ia32-libs (and lib32* really) soonest. 2) How to inform the user that ia32-libs is no longer and what to do? I will do one more upload of ia32-libs to unstable to fix a number of critical issues that have collected over the last months. I don't intend to fix anything beyond that and nobody else seems to care enough to help. Therefore I intend to request removal of ia32-libs from wheezy shortly before the release. This gives me the chance to inform testing/unstable users of what is to come. Get more users to test multiarch as replacement for ia32-libs. Are there any objections to adding a debconf message to ia32-libs with a short message and reference to a Debian wiki page on how to transition to multiarch? 3) What about stable users? I don't see a way to transition stable users slowly. As said above I intent to request removal of ia32-libs for wheezy. So there will be no transition period where both ia32-libs and multiarch will be in stable. I guess it is then up to the release notes to tell users about multiarch and how to transition to that from ia32-libs. Hopefully by then the Debian wiki page will have been filled with lots of information that can be used to add to the release notes. 4) Should we have some Breaks/Conflicts between multiarch and bi-arch packages? The libc6:i386 package could Conflicts/Breaks: libc6-i386, ia32-libs-core and the libc6:amd64 package could Conflicts/Breaks: libc6-amd64. This would essentially prevent multiarch and bi-arch packages to be installed in parallel. Enabling multiarch and installing basically any foreign package would then automatically remove any bi-arch package. Given the file conflict on the ld.so between those packages it should be Conflicts or Breaks+Replaces actually. Thoughts? MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-mentors-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87ehu4oy6o.fsf@frosties.localnet
Re: How to tell users that ia32-libs will go away
(replying on -mentors) Hi Goswin, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: Having multiarch packages and ia32-libs installed will lead to some confusion. The runtime linker will not be able to differentiate between multiarch or ia32-libs libs. One of /usr/lib32/ and /usr/lib/i486-linux-gnu/ will be first in the search path and libs will be taken from there preferably. The multiarch dirs come before the biarch dirs. See glibc-package r4683 for details (prefix biarch-compat.conf with zz_ so that is is sorted last, 2011-05-24). [...] Are there any objections to adding a debconf message to ia32-libs with a short message and reference to a Debian wiki page on how to transition to multiarch? Yes, as devref explains, that is debconf abuse. Please use NEWS.Debian.gz and README.Debian instead. [..] 4) Should we have some Breaks/Conflicts between multiarch and bi-arch packages? No, I don't see why. Thanks for your work and hope that helps, Jonathan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-mentors-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120209152634.GA5575@burratino
Re: How to tell users that ia32-libs will go away
Goswin von Brederlow, le Thu 09 Feb 2012 15:53:35 +0100, a écrit : 3) What about stable users? I don't see a way to transition stable users slowly. As said above I intent to request removal of ia32-libs for wheezy. So there will be no transition period where both ia32-libs and multiarch will be in stable. Can't we keep an ia32-libs package which is empty and just depends on the corresponding multiarch packages? Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-mentors-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120209150126.gq4...@type.u-bordeaux.fr
Re: How to tell users that ia32-libs will go away
Le 09/02/12 15:53, Goswin von Brederlow a écrit : Hi, now that a multiarch dpkg has been uploaded to experimental it looks like we can finaly get rid of ia32-libs* for wheezy. !!!HURAY!!! The problem now is the transition: 1) multiarch and ia32-libs are incompatible [...] What this means is that users that want to use multiarch should remove ia32-libs (and lib32* really) soonest. Couldn't you make ia32-libs a meta-package pulling the multiarch version of the libs it used to include ? T. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-mentors-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f33e988.4080...@free.fr
Re: How to tell users that ia32-libs will go away
Samuel Thibault sthiba...@debian.org writes: Goswin von Brederlow, le Thu 09 Feb 2012 15:53:35 +0100, a écrit : 3) What about stable users? I don't see a way to transition stable users slowly. As said above I intent to request removal of ia32-libs for wheezy. So there will be no transition period where both ia32-libs and multiarch will be in stable. Can't we keep an ia32-libs package which is empty and just depends on the corresponding multiarch packages? Samuel I fear not. 1) Debian doesn't allow cross architecture depends (yet, afaiks, problems with DAK, testing migration, etc, might be outdated info). 2) Multiarch doesn't magically work in stable - The user needs to install a multiarch dpkg / apt / aptitude. - The user needs to enable multiarch (add i386 to the architectures) - The user needs to apt-get / aptitude update to fetch i386 Packages.gz - Now the user can install multiarch packages An ia32-libs transitional package that depends on libfoo:i386, libbar:i386, 50 other libs would be uninstallable on upgrade. But maybe that would be acceptable. Something to keep in mind. MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-mentors-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87r4y4ng5b.fsf@frosties.localnet
Re: How to tell users that ia32-libs will go away
On Thu, Feb 09, 2012 at 04:43:04PM +0100, Thibaut Paumard wrote: Le 09/02/12 15:53, Goswin von Brederlow a écrit : now that a multiarch dpkg has been uploaded to experimental it looks like we can finaly get rid of ia32-libs* for wheezy. !!!HURAY!!! The problem now is the transition: 1) multiarch and ia32-libs are incompatible [...] What this means is that users that want to use multiarch should remove ia32-libs (and lib32* really) soonest. Couldn't you make ia32-libs a meta-package pulling the multiarch version of the libs it used to include ? This would require something like Depends: libpam0g:i386, libssl098:i386, [...] and this syntax is not yet supported (intentionally, because there's a lot of policy that needs to be put in place before we allow such things). Ubuntu, faced with the same issue, kludged a bit to make upgrades possible. Package: ia32-libs Architecture: amd64 Depends: ia32-libs-multiarch Package: ia32-libs-multiarch Architecture: i386 Multi-Arch: foreign Depends: libpam0g, [...] This doesn't require us to support :arch syntax for dependencies anywhere yet; it just requires that the i386 arch is enabled via multiarch, and that the package manager is able to resolve the fact that ia32-libs' dependency is satisfied by the only copy of ia32-libs-multiarch available, the i386 one. However, this still introduces at least some of the same policy problems - for instance, britney has to be taught that this is ok if you want to be able to migrate this package to testing automatically. And you need a multiarch-capable package manager installed and configured *before* you can upgrade this package, so that requires a two-step upgrade of some variety: either holding ia32-libs back until after the dist-upgrade, or upgrading the package manager before the dist-upgrade. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-mentors-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120209185255.gc17...@virgil.dodds.net
