Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects
Hey again, Jonas Meurer: >>> So here's the idea we came up with: We could explicitely broaden the >>> scope of debian-mentors to include any questions regarding Debian >>> infrastructure software. >>> That basicly would mean to explicitely mention "questions on >>> infrastruc-ture projects" in our docs about debian-mentors. >>> Additionally, when the infrastructure teams don't have time to mentor >>> new contributors, they could point them to debian-mentors. >>> >>> My hope is that having debian-mentors as an endorsed entry point for >>> diving into Debian infrastructure would lower the entry barrier >>> significantly for new contributors who'd like to dive into our >>> infrastructure software projects. >> >> Next step will be to update the documentation about debian-mentors: >> >> Once this is done, it should be announced on more popular channels. Misc >> Developer News[4] would be a good one and maybe also a dedicated mail to >> debian-devel-announce? >> >> [4] https://wiki.debian.org/DeveloperNews >> >> I think the key to success here is that people in Debian (especially >> those in infrastructure/service teams) have to adapt to the practice of >> pointing newbies with their questions to debian-mentors. > > Will do that once the list description got updated. Since the mailinglist description got updated very quickly I went ahead and added a paragraph about the broadened debian-mentors scope to DeveloperNews: https://wiki.debian.org/DeveloperNews#Scope_of_debian-mentors_broadened_to_help_with_infrastructure_questions Again, feel free to review and improve :) Cheers jonas signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects
Hello, Jonas Meurer: > Jonas Meurer: >> So here's the idea we came up with: We could explicitely broaden the >> scope of debian-mentors to include any questions regarding Debian >> infrastructure software. >> That basicly would mean to explicitely mention "questions on >> infrastruc-ture projects" in our docs about debian-mentors. >> Additionally, when the infrastructure teams don't have time to mentor >> new contributors, they could point them to debian-mentors. >> >> My hope is that having debian-mentors as an endorsed entry point for >> diving into Debian infrastructure would lower the entry barrier >> significantly for new contributors who'd like to dive into our >> infrastructure software projects. > > Next step will be to update the documentation about debian-mentors: > > * Update the DebianMentorsFaq wiki page[1] and make it explicit that > questions about Debian infrastructure projects and services are > on-topic. I finally found some time to update the DebianMentorsFaq. Would be great if some native english speakers could review (and improve) it: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMentorsFaq?action=diff=69=70 > * Update the debian-mentors list description[2]. I filed bugreport #931634 and asked to update the list description: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=931634 > * Maybe add a shore paragraph about the scope of the debian-mentors > channels to the startpage of mentors.debian.net? While it's a separate > service, it probably is an entry point for prospective contributors. Maybe that one should be left as is for now, as the whole purpose of mentors.debian.net is to coordinate sponsored package uploads. > Once this is done, it should be announced on more popular channels. Misc > Developer News[4] would be a good one and maybe also a dedicated mail to > debian-devel-announce? > > [4] https://wiki.debian.org/DeveloperNews > > I think the key to success here is that people in Debian (especially > those in infrastructure/service teams) have to adapt to the practice of > pointing newbies with their questions to debian-mentors. Will do that once the list description got updated. Cheers jonas signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects
Hi again, Jonas Meurer: > So here's the idea we came up with: We could explicitely broaden the > scope of debian-mentors to include any questions regarding Debian > infrastructure software. > That basicly would mean to explicitely mention "questions on > infrastruc-ture projects" in our docs about debian-mentors. > Additionally, when the infrastructure teams don't have time to mentor > new contributors, they could point them to debian-mentors. > > My hope is that having debian-mentors as an endorsed entry point for > diving into Debian infrastructure would lower the entry barrier > significantly for new contributors who'd like to dive into our > infrastructure software projects. Thanks a lot to everybody involved in the discussion so far. Apparently there's some support for the idea, so I'll try to drive it forward. Next step will be to update the documentation about debian-mentors: * Update the DebianMentorsFaq wiki page[1] and make it explicit that questions about Debian infrastructure projects and services are on-topic. * Update the debian-mentors list description[2]. * Maybe add a shore paragraph about the scope of the debian-mentors channels to the startpage of mentors.debian.net? While it's a separate service, it probably is an entry point for prospective contributors. * I already updated the description about #debian-mentors on the IRC wiki page[3]. [1] https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMentorsFaq [2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/ [3] https://wiki.debian.org/IRC I'll try to take care of this within the next days. Nevertheless, help would be appreciated ;) Are there any places that I'm missing? Once this is done, it should be announced on more popular channels. Misc Developer News[4] would be a good one and maybe also a dedicated mail to debian-devel-announce? [4] https://wiki.debian.org/DeveloperNews I think the key to success here is that people in Debian (especially those in infrastructure/service teams) have to adapt to the practice of pointing newbies with their questions to debian-mentors. Paul Wise: > As someone who is regularly answering mentors questions, is a DSA > member, a wiki admin, maintainer of the derivatives services and > contributor to some of the QA services, I would be happy to answer any > infrastructure questions that come up on debian-mentors. That's fantastic news. Thanks a lot for being open to it and offering help :) Sam Hartman: > I wonder whether it might be a good idea to write down which > infrastructure services people in the mentors community are most able > to help with. I don't think, that's necessary - or even helpful. Also, it would mean that some kind of "experts" for infrastructure projects would have to volunteer for ansering questions on debian-mentors, which in my eyes makes the whole idea way to complicated. I think we should give it a try without explicitely documenting *which* infrastructure services will be supported by debian-mentors. As Paul said, people on debian-mentors might be able to help with research and looking up things in case they don't know the answers themselves - something that's already very useful for new contributers that tend to get lost in the huge Debian ecosystem ;) Cheers jonas signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects
Adrian Bunk wrote: > […] I'm not sure whether this particular sub-thread is salvagable but I thought I might briefly share the below in order that it might prevent parallel cases elsewhere. There exists a particular argument style where one participant in the discussion asks a collection of essentially reasonable "devil's advocate" questions to the group. Whilst this can superfically appear to be an instance of the Socratic method this can unfortunately be inadvertently and subconsciously interpreted as passive-agressive. This is due to the way it can mask provocative positions as "mere" questions but it generally shifts the burden of proof and — as it requires an asymmetric level of energy to "answer" the implied viewpoints — it can make as others feel cornered, leading to a defensive and ultimately unproductive discussion. Naturally, if there was any perception that this tactic was deployed deliberately this will only heighten any antagonism felt by the group. Do note that that it is not necessarily the questions themselves that are considered the problem but rather that the response is constructed predominantly of them. Personally, I have been over-indulgent in using such "devil's advocate" positions in the past, but after some feedback I realised that it did not have the intellectually stimulating quality I was hoping for and merely distanced myself from whom I wished to convince. After reducing my usage and spending moretime & effort adopting alternative modes of argument I found my attempts to connect with and ultimately persuade others to be far more effective. Best wishes, -- ,''`. : :' : Chris Lamb `. `'` la...@debian.org chris-lamb.co.uk `-
Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects
On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 6:17 AM Sam Hartman wrote: > I wonder whether it might be a good idea to write down which > infrastructure services people in the mentors community are most able to > help with. I don't want to discourage people from for example asking > dak questions, but it might be valuable to indicate that for example we > have better coverage of LDAP than dak (assuming that's true). To be honest the only Debian service I have good knowledge of is the derivatives census (since I wrote it) and some of the QA services (especially the old PTS). For the rest I have the server access and git clones needed to investigate and find the answers. I expect that I will need to investigate for most questions that come up and I'm comfortable with that. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects
Paul, it's really cool to see that you are open to this. I wonder whether it might be a good idea to write down which infrastructure services people in the mentors community are most able to help with. I don't want to discourage people from for example asking dak questions, but it might be valuable to indicate that for example we have better coverage of LDAP than dak (assuming that's true). I find setting expectations helps avoid frustration. --Sam
Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects
Adrian Bunk writes: > On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 02:56:53PM +0200, Philip Hands wrote: >> Adrian Bunk writes: >> > On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 12:55:14PM +0200, Jonas Meurer wrote: >>... >> >> [1] Let me give two examples for such "infrastructure projects": >> >> */ Many in Debian agree that Debbugs could need some love, but still >> >> it's developed and maintained largely by one brave soul. >> >>... >> > >> > What will happen if a newbie starts asking questions about debbugs on >> > debian-mentors? >> > >> > Will the questions be ignored, or will you try to force this one brave >> > soul to become a mentor for whatever people from the internet start >> > asking questions? >> >> Are you coming up with hypothetical worst case scenarios because you >> actually think something about this is a bad idea? or because you do >> not think the problem described exists? or just because you think life >> is a hopeless shuffle towards our inevitable oblivion and that any >> glimmer of hope needs to be exposed as the delusion that it is? >>... > > Why are you assaulting me personally? That was supposed to be humorous hyperbole, but clearly it missed its mark, so I apologise. > This was one of two examples provided by Jonas, > and I was questioning how it would work in practice. If you look at what I wrote, I asked you a series of questions to discover why you were apparently being negative about the suggestion. Having looked again at what you wrote, I see that you were also just asking a series of questions. Perhaps now that you've assumed that what I wrote was an assault you may be able to better understand how your original series of negative questions could be open to an abusive interpretation. > If you disagree with me, there would have been civilized ways to do > so. I've no idea if I disagree with you, since you didn't actually say what you think AFAICT, since you tell me that what you wrote were just some questions. > The sun is shining and I'd rather go outside than wasting more time > on an abuser like you. An entry in my kill file will protect me from > receiving further assaults. Well, I guess you won't see this then. *sigh* Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg,GERMANY signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects
On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 02:56:53PM +0200, Philip Hands wrote: > Adrian Bunk writes: > > On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 12:55:14PM +0200, Jonas Meurer wrote: >... > >> [1] Let me give two examples for such "infrastructure projects": > >> */ Many in Debian agree that Debbugs could need some love, but still > >> it's developed and maintained largely by one brave soul. > >>... > > > > What will happen if a newbie starts asking questions about debbugs on > > debian-mentors? > > > > Will the questions be ignored, or will you try to force this one brave > > soul to become a mentor for whatever people from the internet start > > asking questions? > > Are you coming up with hypothetical worst case scenarios because you > actually think something about this is a bad idea? or because you do > not think the problem described exists? or just because you think life > is a hopeless shuffle towards our inevitable oblivion and that any > glimmer of hope needs to be exposed as the delusion that it is? >... Why are you assaulting me personally? This was one of two examples provided by Jonas, and I was questioning how it would work in practice. If you disagree with me, there would have been civilized ways to do so. The sun is shining and I'd rather go outside than wasting more time on an abuser like you. An entry in my kill file will protect me from receiving further assaults. cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects
Adrian Bunk writes: > On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 12:55:14PM +0200, Jonas Meurer wrote: >> Hi, > > Hi Jonas, > >>... >> So here's the idea we came up with: We could explicitely broaden the >> scope of debian-mentors to include any questions regarding Debian >> infrastructure software. >> That basicly would mean to explicitely mention "questions on >> infrastruc-ture projects" in our docs about debian-mentors. >> Additionally, when the infrastructure teams don't have time to mentor >> new contributors, they could point them to debian-mentors. >> >> My hope is that having debian-mentors as an endorsed entry point for >> diving into Debian infrastructure would lower the entry barrier >> significantly for new contributors who'd like to dive into our >> infrastructure software projects. >> >> What do you think about this proposal? > > who will provide the answers to non-trivial questions? > > For most packaging questions a list with plenty of DM/DD is sufficient > to get an answer. > > For the typical infrastructure project the number of people in Debian > who can answer non-trivial questions is in the low single-digits. However the number of people who know who those people are is considerably higher, which might well be part of the problem that makes getting involved hard for newbies. Also, if the same question comes up again, if it was asked via -mentors the first time it might well be possible to refer the latest newbie to the previous reply without needing to bother the limited resource. >> Cheers >> jonas >> >> [1] Let me give two examples for such "infrastructure projects": >> */ Many in Debian agree that Debbugs could need some love, but still >> it's developed and maintained largely by one brave soul. >>... > > What will happen if a newbie starts asking questions about debbugs on > debian-mentors? > > Will the questions be ignored, or will you try to force this one brave > soul to become a mentor for whatever people from the internet start > asking questions? Are you coming up with hypothetical worst case scenarios because you actually think something about this is a bad idea? or because you do not think the problem described exists? or just because you think life is a hopeless shuffle towards our inevitable oblivion and that any glimmer of hope needs to be exposed as the delusion that it is? Personally, I think this is a good idea. At worst someone might get told to talk the people that they'd eventually have worked out they needed to talk to anyway. Given pabs's enthusiastic response it seems to have a good chance of achieving a much greater success than that. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg,GERMANY signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects
On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 02:44:40PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 12:55:14PM +0200, Jonas Meurer wrote: > > Hi, > > Hi Jonas, Hello both mailinglists, > >... > > So here's the idea we came up with: We could explicitely broaden the > > scope of debian-mentors to include any questions regarding Debian > > infrastructure software. > > > > What do you think about this proposal? I think it is a good proposal. The thing I real like is adding scope to a mailinglist. (I'm no fan of splitting our community in many many mailinglists.) > > who will provide the answers to non-trivial questions? > > For most packaging questions a list with plenty of DM/DD is sufficient > to get an answer. > > For the typical infrastructure project the number of people in Debian > who can answer non-trivial questions is in the low single-digits. > > > Cheers > > jonas > > > > [1] Let me give two examples for such "infrastructure projects": > > */ Many in Debian agree that Debbugs could need some love, but still > > it's developed and maintained largely by one brave soul. > >... > > What will happen if a newbie starts asking questions about debbugs on > debian-mentors? > > Will the questions be ignored, or will you try to force this one brave > soul to become a mentor for whatever people from the internet start > asking questions? Just let see what happens. In case the questions were to prevent that things get happen[1], please express the concern. Groeten Geert Stappers [1] getting forward, moving on, evolution. -- Leven en laten leven
Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects
On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 12:55:14PM +0200, Jonas Meurer wrote: > Hi, Hi Jonas, >... > So here's the idea we came up with: We could explicitely broaden the > scope of debian-mentors to include any questions regarding Debian > infrastructure software. > That basicly would mean to explicitely mention "questions on > infrastruc-ture projects" in our docs about debian-mentors. > Additionally, when the infrastructure teams don't have time to mentor > new contributors, they could point them to debian-mentors. > > My hope is that having debian-mentors as an endorsed entry point for > diving into Debian infrastructure would lower the entry barrier > significantly for new contributors who'd like to dive into our > infrastructure software projects. > > What do you think about this proposal? who will provide the answers to non-trivial questions? For most packaging questions a list with plenty of DM/DD is sufficient to get an answer. For the typical infrastructure project the number of people in Debian who can answer non-trivial questions is in the low single-digits. > Cheers > jonas > > [1] Let me give two examples for such "infrastructure projects": > */ Many in Debian agree that Debbugs could need some love, but still > it's developed and maintained largely by one brave soul. >... What will happen if a newbie starts asking questions about debbugs on debian-mentors? Will the questions be ignored, or will you try to force this one brave soul to become a mentor for whatever people from the internet start asking questions? cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
Re: RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects
On Sun, Jun 9, 2019 at 6:55 PM Jonas Meurer wrote: > My hope is that having debian-mentors as an endorsed entry point for > diving into Debian infrastructure would lower the entry barrier > significantly for new contributors who'd like to dive into our > infrastructure software projects. > > What do you think about this proposal? This sounds like a great idea :) As someone who is regularly answering mentors questions, is a DSA member, a wiki admin, maintainer of the derivatives services and contributor to some of the QA services, I would be happy to answer any infrastructure questions that come up on debian-mentors. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
RFC: endorse debian-mentors as entrance to our infrastructure projects
Hi, During MiniDebConf in Hamburg, I had an interesting conversation about the question of how we can attract more people to contribute to Debian infrastructure projects. There seems to be some consensus that such infrastructure projects are the ones in Debian that most badly need more contributors. [1] At the same time, our infrastructure projects/teams have a rather high entry barrier. Apparently, one reason is that understaffed teams with high workload usually lack the time and ressources to mentor new contributors. At the same time we have a fantastic entrance area for new contributors when it comes to packaging questions: the debian-mentors channels (IRC channel and mailinglist) both stand out with a nice and welcoming atmosphere that actively encourages new contributors to ask their questions. So here's the idea we came up with: We could explicitely broaden the scope of debian-mentors to include any questions regarding Debian infrastructure software. That basicly would mean to explicitely mention "questions on infrastruc-ture projects" in our docs about debian-mentors. Additionally, when the infrastructure teams don't have time to mentor new contributors, they could point them to debian-mentors. My hope is that having debian-mentors as an endorsed entry point for diving into Debian infrastructure would lower the entry barrier significantly for new contributors who'd like to dive into our infrastructure software projects. What do you think about this proposal? Cheers jonas [1] Let me give two examples for such "infrastructure projects": */ Many in Debian agree that Debbugs could need some love, but still it's developed and maintained largely by one brave soul. */ The concept of bikeshed keeps popping up for years and usually gets a lot of affirmation. Still, only one developer worked on it so far and nobody else stepped up to implement a working solution. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
