Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
On Sun, Jun 04, 2006 at 12:56:05PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote: On Tue, 30 May 2006, Bas Wijnen wrote: Packages containing some contrib material, without which the package functions well, can indeed go in main AFAIK. Yes. That's enough. If you agree on that why do you need after that to find a complicated explication on why finally this is not OK ? Because the package (as I understood it, I don't actually know the package) doesn't actually function at all for some people. That's not because they aren't interested in it, it's because they need non-free stuff to make it work. However, if I understand the situation correctly, this package is completely useless without the non-free firmware if you happen to have a device which needs it. The fact that the package is useful for other people is quite irrelevant: the download script is useless for them anyway, irrespective of their attitude towards non-free software. No it's not irrelevant. You need to consider the package as a whole, it's not a package in one situation and another in a second situation. The split is not justified by any technical need and thus your reasoning is purely ideological. Of course it is! There is never a technical reason to put anything in contrib or non-free. That's all ideological. You make it sound like ideological arguments are not real, and are less important than technical ones. I strongly disagree with that. Debian is an organisation which provides software which is both technically and ideologically very good. Both of these properties should be protected. Putting things in main which really belong in contrib because there's no technical argument for putting them in contrib is damaging the image of Debian IMO. It makes people think we only care about technical matters. If that was the case, contrib wouldn't exist at all. Technical reasons say the split is rather useless: creating a new source package from scratch for a 10 line script is waste of our resources. I wasn't suggesting a new source package. I assumed (and this has been confirmed in this thread) that it is possible to create a contrib binary package from a source package in main. So the decision is entirely up to the maintainer. Of course it is. And if the maintainer comes here to ask what to do, we're going to give advice. He can integrate it in the main package. However if he decides to create a dedicated package for the wrapper, then he needs to create a new contrib source package. IMO any (binary) package containing those lines must be in contrib. Since the rest of the package it currently lives in is usable in main, the split makes sense (because that package doesn't belong in contrib). Then again, this sounds pretty much like a thing for debian-legal. :-) Not at all. We all know what is DFSG and what is not in this case. It is totally clear that for some people this package depends on (as in: doesn't do anything useful without) non-free things. IMO that makes it contrib, but others don't seem to agree. In case of such (theoretically based) disagreements I think of debian-legal. That thought can be completely misplaced of course. :-) Thanks, Bas Wijnen -- I encourage people to send encrypted e-mail (see http://www.gnupg.org). If you have problems reading my e-mail, use a better reader. Please send the central message of e-mails as plain text in the message body, not as HTML and definitely not as MS Word. Please do not use the MS Word format for attachments either. For more information, see http://129.125.47.90/e-mail.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
On Thu, 08 Jun 2006, Bas Wijnen wrote: Because the package (as I understood it, I don't actually know the package) doesn't actually function at all for some people. That's not because they aren't interested in it, it's because they need non-free stuff to make it work. Indeed and our job is to help our users who are in this situation. They want to use their hardware, we have to tell them how they can get it to work. Hiding the script in contrib doesn't help our users. The split is not justified by any technical need and thus your reasoning is purely ideological. Of course it is! There is never a technical reason to put anything in contrib or non-free. That's all ideological. You make it sound like ideological arguments are not real, and are less important than technical ones. I strongly disagree with that. Debian is an organisation which provides software which is both technically and ideologically very good. Both of these properties should be protected. Putting things in main which really belong in contrib because there's no technical argument for putting them in contrib is damaging the image of Debian IMO. It makes people think we only care about technical matters. If that was the case, contrib wouldn't exist at all. Well contrib serves an ideological purpose that I share: not cluttering the package database of people who are not interested in installing non-free software (because they will have to install something non-free to make use of contrib). However extracting a script from a package in main in a new contrib package doesn't make any sense. You're not thinking what's best for the user and for Debian, you're only applying a narrow-minded interpretation of the definition of contrib. I wasn't suggesting a new source package. I assumed (and this has been confirmed in this thread) that it is possible to create a contrib binary package from a source package in main. Where has this been confirmed? I was convinced of the contrary since main, contrib and non-free are top directories in the pool and I expected them to be self containing (sources+binaries). So the decision is entirely up to the maintainer. Of course it is. And if the maintainer comes here to ask what to do, we're going to give advice. Contradictory advice... so it's better (when possible) to come to a consensus. Not at all. We all know what is DFSG and what is not in this case. It is totally clear that for some people this package depends on (as in: doesn't do anything useful without) non-free things. IMO that makes it contrib, but others don't seem to agree. In case of such (theoretically based) disagreements I think of debian-legal. That thought can be completely misplaced of course. :-) There's no notion of contrib for some and main for others. So the package is in main and should provide the helper script to make it useful for the largest number of users. In any case -legal is not the moral authority of Debian and since the problem is not license related, -legal is not a list to consult. -devel would be more appropriate but we would probably have the same discussion as here so a general resolution would be the only way to decide. :-) Actually a new official definition of contrib might be welcome since we're having discussion about it very regularly (remember ndisplayer?). Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 05:20:44PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote: On Thu, 08 Jun 2006, Bas Wijnen wrote: Because the package (as I understood it, I don't actually know the package) doesn't actually function at all for some people. That's not because they aren't interested in it, it's because they need non-free stuff to make it work. Indeed and our job is to help our users who are in this situation. They want to use their hardware, we have to tell them how they can get it to work. Hiding the script in contrib doesn't help our users. Users who accept that they might need non-free software to use things have contrib (and non-free) in their sources.list. Users who don't want it don't. If this script is in contrib, it is very visible for people who have contrib in sources.list (a Suggests: would be appropriate), while people who don't want to be bothered with non-free things don't see it. This is exactly the kind of thing contrib is for. The split is not justified by any technical need and thus your reasoning is purely ideological. Of course it is! There is never a technical reason to put anything in contrib or non-free. That's all ideological. You make it sound like ideological arguments are not real, and are less important than technical ones. I strongly disagree with that. Debian is an organisation which provides software which is both technically and ideologically very good. Both of these properties should be protected. Putting things in main which really belong in contrib because there's no technical argument for putting them in contrib is damaging the image of Debian IMO. It makes people think we only care about technical matters. If that was the case, contrib wouldn't exist at all. Well contrib serves an ideological purpose that I share: not cluttering the package database of people who are not interested in installing non-free software (because they will have to install something non-free to make use of contrib). So why should people who are not interested in non-free software and own a device which needs non-free firmware to work with the package be bothered with this script? They should simply see this package is not supported by free software. That's what they want to see if it is true. (I know what I'm talking about, I am such a person. ;-) ) However extracting a script from a package in main in a new contrib package doesn't make any sense. You're not thinking what's best for the user and for Debian, you're only applying a narrow-minded interpretation of the definition of contrib. Not at all, I am entirely looking at it from a user's perspective, in particular a user which doesn't want non-free software (those people are the reason contrib and non-free exist, so it seems appropriate to look especially at them). I'm saying that those users do not want to see that script. So it must not be in main. They _want_ it to be hidden, as you call it. It's not a disservice to them to keep it where they won't see it, but a service. I wasn't suggesting a new source package. I assumed (and this has been confirmed in this thread) that it is possible to create a contrib binary package from a source package in main. Where has this been confirmed? I've seen a response to http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2006/05/msg00324.html, but it isn't in the archive and I've already deleted it from my local mail box. Perhaps it was only off-list. Anyway, why wouldn't it be possible to put a Section: contrib/... in the binary package part of the control file? Other overrides are possible there anyway. Can someone confirm that this works? I was convinced of the contrary since main, contrib and non-free are top directories in the pool and I expected them to be self containing (sources+binaries). That sounds plausible as well. So the decision is entirely up to the maintainer. Of course it is. And if the maintainer comes here to ask what to do, we're going to give advice. Contradictory advice... so it's better (when possible) to come to a consensus. I agree with you there, but I can't do that alone. ;-) Not at all. We all know what is DFSG and what is not in this case. It is totally clear that for some people this package depends on (as in: doesn't do anything useful without) non-free things. IMO that makes it contrib, but others don't seem to agree. In case of such (theoretically based) disagreements I think of debian-legal. That thought can be completely misplaced of course. :-) There's no notion of contrib for some and main for others. Correct. So the package is in main and should provide the helper script to make it useful for the largest number of users. Incorrect (IMO). Contrib is not about reaching large number of users. It's about being free. This script makes the package depend on non-free stuff. It totally makes sense that only people who actually care about that (and
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
Bas Wijnen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wasn't suggesting a new source package. I assumed (and this has been confirmed in this thread) that it is possible to create a contrib binary package from a source package in main. Where has this been confirmed? I've seen a response to http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2006/05/msg00324.html, but it isn't in the archive and I've already deleted it from my local mail box. Perhaps it was only off-list. Anyway, why wouldn't it be possible to put a Section: contrib/... in the binary package part of the control file? Other overrides are possible there anyway. Can someone confirm that this works? I was convinced of the contrary since main, contrib and non-free are top directories in the pool and I expected them to be self containing (sources+binaries). That sounds plausible as well. According to http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/a/alsa-tools/alsa-tools_1.0.11-1.diff.gz the alsa-tools source package creates: +Source: alsa-tools +Section: sound [...] +Package: alsa-tools [...] +Package: alsa-tools-gui [...] +Package: alsa-firmware-loaders +Section: contrib/sound and this binary package is also not in http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/a/alsa-tools/, but in the corresponding contrib directory. Regards, Frank -- Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX)
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
Bas Wijnen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not at all, I am entirely looking at it from a user's perspective, in particular a user which doesn't want non-free software (those people are the reason contrib and non-free exist, so it seems appropriate to look especially at them). No, there is a much more important reason why non-free exists: some of its contents cannot be legally distributed on CDs (and sold with magazines, etc.). -- Florent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
tag 368857 patch
thanks
* Enrico Tassi [Sun, 28 May 2006 13:44:57 +0200]:
Hello Enrico (and Victor),
Could you please examine this bts entry and give me suggestions.
Please CC me, since I'm not subscribed.
So there was a 20-message long thread in -mentors, but you were dropped
from CC when the interesting bits came. In particular, two messages from
Frank Küster (kudos) that:
- first, pointed out that the downloading script was in a separate
binary package already, linux-wlan-ng-firmware [1]
- secondly, demonstrated that it is possible for a source package in
main to ship a binary package in contrib [2]
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2006/05/msg00324.html
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2006/06/msg00135.html
So I think the conclusion is that:
- the discussion of what happens if the script is shipped in the same
package as the free firmware is one that could expand itself beyond
imaginable limits, but it is _NOT_ the case here
- the linux-wlan-ng-firmware binary package is a downloader package
which should be in contrib without a doubt
- because of [2] above, and barring any input from the ftpmaster team,
the attached patch should be enough to fix RC Bug#368857
HTH,
--
Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es
Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org
Listening to: Amon Tobin - Mission
diff -u linux-wlan-ng-0.2.4+svn20060414/debian/changelog
linux-wlan-ng-0.2.4+svn20060414/debian/changelog
--- linux-wlan-ng-0.2.4+svn20060414/debian/changelog
+++ linux-wlan-ng-0.2.4+svn20060414/debian/changelog
@@ -1,3 +1,10 @@
+linux-wlan-ng (0.2.4+svn20060414-3.1) unstable; urgency=low
+
+ * NMU.
+ * Move linux-wlan-ng-firmware to contrib. (Closes: #368857)
+
+ -- Adeodato Simó [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri, 9 Jun 2006 01:55:57 +0200
+
linux-wlan-ng (0.2.4+svn20060414-3) unstable; urgency=low
* shared.prism2 is back (Closes: #365553)
diff -u linux-wlan-ng-0.2.4+svn20060414/debian/control
linux-wlan-ng-0.2.4+svn20060414/debian/control
--- linux-wlan-ng-0.2.4+svn20060414/debian/control
+++ linux-wlan-ng-0.2.4+svn20060414/debian/control
@@ -56,6 +56,7 @@
Package: linux-wlan-ng-firmware
Architecture: all
+Section: contrib/admin
Depends: linux-wlan-ng (= ${Source-Version}), build-essential, debhelper,
subversion, fakeroot
Description: firmware files used by the linux-wlan-ng driver
linux-wlan-ng is a set of drivers and utilities that is intended to
signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
On Tue, 30 May 2006, Bas Wijnen wrote: Packages containing some contrib material, without which the package functions well, can indeed go in main AFAIK. Yes. That's enough. If you agree on that why do you need after that to find a complicated explication on why finally this is not OK ? However, if I understand the situation correctly, this package is completely useless without the non-free firmware if you happen to have a device which needs it. The fact that the package is useful for other people is quite irrelevant: the download script is useless for them anyway, irrespective of their attitude towards non-free software. No it's not irrelevant. You need to consider the package as a whole, it's not a package in one situation and another in a second situation. The split is not justified by any technical need and thus your reasoning is purely ideological. Technical reasons say the split is rather useless: creating a new source package from scratch for a 10 line script is waste of our resources. So the decision is entirely up to the maintainer. He can integrate it in the main package. However if he decides to create a dedicated package for the wrapper, then he needs to create a new contrib source package. Then again, this sounds pretty much like a thing for debian-legal. :-) Not at all. We all know what is DFSG and what is not in this case. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
Frank Küster [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bas Wijnen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 03:26:56PM +0200, Frank K?ster wrote: No, it wasn't. As long as I can remember, packages which contained a small part of contrib material, which was not crucial for the function of the package as a whole, can go to main. Look at the policy: , 2.2.1 The main category | Every package in main must comply with the DFSG (Debian Free Software | Guidelines). | | In addition, the packages in main | | * must not require a package outside of main for compilation or | execution (thus, the package must not declare a Depends, | Recommends, or Build-Depends relationship on a non-main | package), ` This explicitly does *not* mention Suggests. Packages containing some contrib material, without which the package functions well, can indeed go in main AFAIK. However, if I understand the situation correctly, this package is completely useless without the non-free firmware if you happen to have a device which needs it. It seems we are confusing source packages and binary packages here. The source package is linux-wlan-ng, and this clearly has a use independently of any non-free files. The binary package is linux-wlan-ng-firmware, and this is only a downloader. Then again, this sounds pretty much like a thing for debian-legal. :-) I rather think it's a technical question: Can a source package in main produce one binary package that is installed in contrib, or is the separation done only on the level of source packages? Regards, Frank Afaik they can and that is what should happen. MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
Hi, Goswin von Brederlow schrieb: But does it have any use without the non-free firmware? Only then can you close an eye and let it stay in main due to its other functions. Yes: Loading free firmware. Whether such a thing exists is largely irrelevant; for the loader, it is just data, and we do not discriminate on fields of endeavour (i.e. it is fine to copy your non-free data around as you like it, even into your hardware if you so choose). A downloader package is a bit of grey area; much like a typical contrib package, it has some more-or-less hardcoded string that points to non-free data; it does not, however, depend on anything outside of main to function (since main is enough to get a network up and running, and the web service, while not dealing with free software, is not Debian's concern as it is only between the user and the company publishing the data files). The real problem with firmware in my opinion is that it ignites a flamewar between people that don't really care whether they have free software as long as it works, and free software purists that want to be able to change their entire system, including the firmware. The former group usually emphasizes that our priority are our users, the latter our priority is free software. We have yet to find a sane middle ground; largely because it would probably be display a dialog educating the user that they are now leaving the wonderful world of free software where you can expect the development team to consist of actual humans that reply to bug reports, and entering the evil corporate dystopia where emails are answered by 'your opinion is very important to us' -- and this would upset both groups (You zealots should not pester the users with your ideology all the time vs. Yeah, as if somebody read all those messages). Good ideas welcome. Simon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
Simon Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi, Goswin von Brederlow schrieb: But does it have any use without the non-free firmware? Only then can you close an eye and let it stay in main due to its other functions. Yes: Loading free firmware. Whether such a thing exists is largely irrelevant; for the loader, it is just data, and we do not discriminate on fields of endeavour (i.e. it is fine to copy your non-free data around as you like it, even into your hardware if you so choose). I disagree there. As long as there is no way to create free firmware (no specs, secret checksum/signature, ...) or even as long as nobody has done so the package has no practical use in main (without the non-free firmware) and belongs to contrib. The purely theoretical (untill someone does it) use of creating free firmware is no argument for main in my opinion. Having it in contrib is no hardship for users. A downloader package is a bit of grey area; much like a typical contrib package, it has some more-or-less hardcoded string that points to non-free data; it does not, however, depend on anything outside of main to function (since main is enough to get a network up and running, and the web service, while not dealing with free software, is not Debian's concern as it is only between the user and the company publishing the data files). It depends on software not in debian to function properly. If the firmware is no longer supplied on the firms webserver then the donwload package stops working. Imho that is a clear dependency even if it doesn't fall under the Depends: field. The real problem with firmware in my opinion is that it ignites a flamewar between people that don't really care whether they have free software as long as it works, and free software purists that want to be able to change their entire system, including the firmware. The former group usually emphasizes that our priority are our users, the latter our priority is free software. The problem only arises when people want to include non-free firmware in main with such excuses as this isn't software or it isn't run on your cpu. Just like anything else firmware can be free (like the adaptec firmware in the kernel source) or non-free and must be placed as such in main or non-free. Purist can then choose not to use non-free while sane people do. We have yet to find a sane middle ground; largely because it would probably be display a dialog educating the user that they are now leaving the wonderful world of free software where you can expect the development team to consist of actual humans that reply to bug reports, and entering the evil corporate dystopia where emails are answered by 'your opinion is very important to us' -- and this would upset both groups (You zealots should not pester the users with your ideology all the time vs. Yeah, as if somebody read all those messages). Good ideas welcome. Simon MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
On Tue, 30 May 2006, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: A downloader package is a bit of grey area; much like a typical contrib package, it has some more-or-less hardcoded string that points to non-free data; it does not, however, depend on anything outside of main to function (since main is enough to get a network up and running, and the web service, while not dealing with free software, is not Debian's concern as it is only between the user and the company publishing the data files). It depends on software not in debian to function properly. If the firmware is no longer supplied on the firms webserver then the donwload package stops working. Imho that is a clear dependency even if it doesn't fall under the Depends: field. Contrib is effectively meant for wrapper on non-free stuff. But contrib is really needed when the wrapper stuff is the *main purpose* of the package. In the case concerning us, we have 10 lines of DFSG-free code that can be used to download non-free firmwares within a bigger DFSG-free package. For me it's no worse than putting the 10 lines of code in README.Debian, it serves really the same purpose. So my vote is keep that little wrapper in the main package, it doesn't hurt. In fact, I go even further: I wish that the package use a low-priority debconf question (defaulting to do not download) to let the user execute the wrapper at installation time. Of course, the question should warn the user that he's about to download non-free stuff. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
This one time, at band camp, Raphael Hertzog said: Contrib is effectively meant for wrapper on non-free stuff. But contrib is really needed when the wrapper stuff is the *main purpose* of the package. In the case concerning us, we have 10 lines of DFSG-free code that can be used to download non-free firmwares within a bigger DFSG-free package. For me it's no worse than putting the 10 lines of code in README.Debian, it serves really the same purpose. So my vote is keep that little wrapper in the main package, it doesn't hurt. In fact, I go even further: I wish that the package use a low-priority debconf question (defaulting to do not download) to let the user execute the wrapper at installation time. Of course, the question should warn the user that he's about to download non-free stuff. Can't you just ship those ten lines in contrib, and the rest in main? This may be archive bloat, but surely it's arch:all, so that minimizes the bloat at least. I am not over fond of the freer-than-free holy wars, but it does seem like this script is exactly the sort of thing that contrib was designed for. -- - | ,''`.Stephen Gran | | : :' :[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer | |`- http://www.debian.org | - signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
On Tue, 30 May 2006, Stephen Gran wrote: Can't you just ship those ten lines in contrib, and the rest in main? This may be archive bloat, but surely it's arch:all, so that minimizes the bloat at least. I am not over fond of the freer-than-free holy wars, but it does seem like this script is exactly the sort of thing that contrib was designed for. Please think about what makes sense. Contrib has been designed for free stuff which are useless without non-free stuff. So when you create a wrapper package to install non-free fonts, it goes clearly in contrib because having that package in main would advertise too much the non-free fonts within Debian (the package name appears in synaptic, and the description clearly mentions non-free stuff) and we do not want that. However in our case, this wrapper script is *not* a package on its own. It's a helper script for a regular main package. The purpose of the script is not to encourage people to use non-free stuff but only to enable users which need those firmwares to download them... it's really not at the same level than the other wrapper for me. The freer-than-free inquisitors will explain that this is only rhetoric but for me it's not. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
Stephen Gran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In fact, I go even further: I wish that the package use a low-priority debconf question (defaulting to do not download) to let the user execute the wrapper at installation time. Of course, the question should warn the user that he's about to download non-free stuff. Can't you just ship those ten lines in contrib, and the rest in main? This may be archive bloat, but surely it's arch:all, so that minimizes the bloat at least. I am not over fond of the freer-than-free holy wars, but it does seem like this script is exactly the sort of thing that contrib was designed for. No, it wasn't. As long as I can remember, packages which contained a small part of contrib material, which was not crucial for the function of the package as a whole, can go to main. Look at the policy: , 2.2.1 The main category | Every package in main must comply with the DFSG (Debian Free Software | Guidelines). | | In addition, the packages in main | | * must not require a package outside of main for compilation or | execution (thus, the package must not declare a Depends, | Recommends, or Build-Depends relationship on a non-main | package), ` This explicitly does *not* mention Suggests. Regards, Frank -- Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX)
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 03:26:56PM +0200, Frank K?ster wrote: No, it wasn't. As long as I can remember, packages which contained a small part of contrib material, which was not crucial for the function of the package as a whole, can go to main. Look at the policy: , 2.2.1 The main category | Every package in main must comply with the DFSG (Debian Free Software | Guidelines). | | In addition, the packages in main | | * must not require a package outside of main for compilation or | execution (thus, the package must not declare a Depends, | Recommends, or Build-Depends relationship on a non-main | package), ` This explicitly does *not* mention Suggests. Packages containing some contrib material, without which the package functions well, can indeed go in main AFAIK. However, if I understand the situation correctly, this package is completely useless without the non-free firmware if you happen to have a device which needs it. The fact that the package is useful for other people is quite irrelevant: the download script is useless for them anyway, irrespective of their attitude towards non-free software. To me it does indeed sound like this is a good example of what contrib is meant for. That is, I think the whole package should be in contrib if it contains this script, because it provides typical contrib-functionality for a group of people (and no significant other functionality, to that group). I can see that having the whole package in contrib is not desirable, though. It can only be avoided by splitting off the script (or removing it altogether, but that's not very nice to our users). Then again, this sounds pretty much like a thing for debian-legal. :-) Thanks, Bas Wijnen -- I encourage people to send encrypted e-mail (see http://www.gnupg.org). If you have problems reading my e-mail, use a better reader. Please send the central message of e-mails as plain text in the message body, not as HTML and definitely not as MS Word. Please do not use the MS Word format for attachments either. For more information, see http://129.125.47.90/e-mail.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
Bas Wijnen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 03:26:56PM +0200, Frank K?ster wrote: No, it wasn't. As long as I can remember, packages which contained a small part of contrib material, which was not crucial for the function of the package as a whole, can go to main. Look at the policy: , 2.2.1 The main category | Every package in main must comply with the DFSG (Debian Free Software | Guidelines). | | In addition, the packages in main | | * must not require a package outside of main for compilation or | execution (thus, the package must not declare a Depends, | Recommends, or Build-Depends relationship on a non-main | package), ` This explicitly does *not* mention Suggests. Packages containing some contrib material, without which the package functions well, can indeed go in main AFAIK. However, if I understand the situation correctly, this package is completely useless without the non-free firmware if you happen to have a device which needs it. It seems we are confusing source packages and binary packages here. The source package is linux-wlan-ng, and this clearly has a use independently of any non-free files. The binary package is linux-wlan-ng-firmware, and this is only a downloader. Then again, this sounds pretty much like a thing for debian-legal. :-) I rather think it's a technical question: Can a source package in main produce one binary package that is installed in contrib, or is the separation done only on the level of source packages? Regards, Frank -- Frank Küster Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich Debian Developer (teTeX)
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
This one time, at band camp, Frank Küster said: Stephen Gran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can't you just ship those ten lines in contrib, and the rest in main? This may be archive bloat, but surely it's arch:all, so that minimizes the bloat at least. I am not over fond of the freer-than-free holy wars, but it does seem like this script is exactly the sort of thing that contrib was designed for. This explicitly does *not* mention Suggests. Who said anything about Suggests? I am not talking about inter-package dependencies. I am only talking about the script that downloads some non-free firmware. The rest of the package is of course fine for main, as far as I can tell from the conversation so far. I rather think it's a technical question: Can a source package in main produce one binary package that is installed in contrib, or is the separation done only on the level of source packages? I don't know the answer to that myself, although I can't see why not, legally or ideologically, since contrib is defined as free in and of itself, but with missing and/or non-free dependencies. It shouldn't be impossible to have a source in main/binary in contrib arrangement, although maybe it is due to limitations of the archive software. Not that I'm set on forcing this (as yet nonexistant) _binary_ package into contrib. It's just that all the other download packages are moving there, and I thought it should be with it's friends. -- - | ,''`.Stephen Gran | | : :' :[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer | |`- http://www.debian.org | - signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
Hi, As I understand it, the sole purpose of this package is to download non-free firmware. This fits into 'contrib', not 'main', since it depends on non-free software for its ultimate operation. Packages like this are given as an example of packages for contrib. From Policy 2.2.2: Hm, that is close to the case of mISDN's loadfirm utility. The consensus back then was that splitting off a (free) firmware loader from a free package was not worth the effort required (after all, we're not violating licenses here); also IMO it is a bit counterproductive, as people wishing to write free firmware would have to get the firmware loader from contrib then. Simon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
Simon Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi, As I understand it, the sole purpose of this package is to download non-free firmware. This fits into 'contrib', not 'main', since it depends on non-free software for its ultimate operation. Packages like this are given as an example of packages for contrib. From Policy 2.2.2: Hm, that is close to the case of mISDN's loadfirm utility. The consensus back then was that splitting off a (free) firmware loader from a free package was not worth the effort required (after all, we're not violating licenses here); also IMO it is a bit counterproductive, as people wishing to write free firmware would have to get the firmware loader from contrib then. Simon But does it have any use without the non-free firmware? Only then can you close an eye and let it stay in main due to its other functions. MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question about linux-wlan-ng-firmware in main
On Mon, May 29, 2006 at 09:40:01PM +0200, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: Simon Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi, As I understand it, the sole purpose of this package is to download non-free firmware. This fits into 'contrib', not 'main', since it depends on non-free software for its ultimate operation. Packages like this are given as an example of packages for contrib. From Policy 2.2.2: Hm, that is close to the case of mISDN's loadfirm utility. The consensus back then was that splitting off a (free) firmware loader from a free package was not worth the effort required (after all, we're not violating licenses here); also IMO it is a bit counterproductive, as people wishing to write free firmware would have to get the firmware loader from contrib then. Simon But does it have any use without the non-free firmware? Only then can you close an eye and let it stay in main due to its other functions. Sure. Only few models really need the firmware. For example my DWL-122 USB stick works fine without the 'non-free' firmware. Thanks for the answers. -- Enrico Tassi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
