Re: Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Hello *, while reading the forwarded messages in the BTS, I am supporting Bill to continue maintaining menu since the desktop is hit by to many limitations. I have an Add-On to menu called tdfvwm-menu which is currently not updated since I have some problems here in France... http://devel.debian.tamay-dogan.net/tdfvwm-menu/ However, I will continue updating my package AFTER release of Lenny... Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator 24V Electronic Engineer Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant Am 2008-08-15 21:07:08, schrieb Daniel Dickinson: Begin forwarded message: Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:44:29 +0200 From: Bill Allombert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-policy@lists.debian.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu On Sun, Jul 06, 2008 at 01:08:40PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Josselin Mouette wrote: Therefore, I still feel that, despite it being a big mess, the current situation is the best: * the default menu contains only what is needed, and we are still hunting down entries that are useless to make them not show up by default; * users wanting the Debian menu and its gazillions of entries including window managers, terminal emulators and shell interpreters can enable it easily in the menu editor; * those really wanting only the Debian menu can replace gnome-applications.menu by debian-menu.menu. If you want this to change, you need to seriously think about evolutions to both XDG and Debian menu systems, to convince fd.o and the Debian menu maintainer to implement them Actually, no, if you want this to change, you have only to do nothing. People (many of them MOTUs from Ubuntu in my experience) are filing lots of requestes for random packages to have .desktop files added to them, so they appear in the gnome menu. The criteria seems to be a program that $RANDOM_USER would like to have on the menu and files a bug about || that $RANDOM_UPSTREAM ships a desktop file for, for whatever reason. So, after sufficient time, the gnome menu will contain a random assortment of the menu items that also appear in the debian menu. Not a well-chosen and consistent assortment, but the kind of random assortment that you get when you ignore policy and go off on your own way. I agree with you, but I am only the 'Debian menu maintainer' and I do not have time or interest to maintain the .desktop files in Debian. Instead people (not you) ask me transparently to stop maintaining menu and maintain the .desktop files instead, but no one is willing to do the work. (And of course .desktop is about 10% of the XDG spec). Cheers, -- Bill. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Imagine a large red swirl here. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com END OF REPLIED MESSAGE -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 +49/177/935194750, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:14:07 -0700 From: Russ Allbery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu Charles Plessy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think that Russ is very pessimistic on the quality of the XDG desktop entry sepcification. It uses a simple syntax and 18 different keys, only 4 of them being required. Many of the Lintian errors noted earlier in this thread are related to the desktop menu specification, which is a separate document. http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/ Russ formed his opinion by attempting to write code to the desktop entry specification without additional reference to existing implementations and watching it not work in the real world with real desktop entries. That's the acid test of a standard and the XDG desktop entry specification didn't fare well. The menu specification has other problems, but I am indeed also complaining about the XDG desktop entry specification and specifically saying that the desktop files in Debian do not universally comply with it, that it is unclear and underspecified, and that it needs clarity and additional work to be usable for a Debian policy. I do think that if we had such a standard and additional checks and the intention to enforce it, most of the problems with the desktop files in /usr/share/applications could be relatively quickly cleaned up. (The *.desktop files outside of /usr/share/applications are a whole different problem and are mostly a disaster from a compliance with the specification perspective, but that may not be an issue; most of the ones outside of that tree are legitimately used for internal purposes by different desktop systems and aren't necessarily intended to comply with a spec.) -- Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 12:02:47 +0800 From: Paul Wise [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 6:12 AM, Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Second: XDG has less features than debian-menu currently does. For instance, unless I'm mistaken it's not possible to specify in an XDG .desktop file that a particular application is a curses or similar application that requires an xterm or some such, which is possible with menu. Due to this feature, it's also possible to have a package like pdmenu for non-graphical systems. Terminal=true exists, if it doesn't work, then that is a bug in the implementation. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:40:58 +0900 From: Charles Plessy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu Le Sat, Jul 05, 2008 at 12:35:34PM -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit : I think that writing a policy is the first necessary step and is the main thing required to move this conversation beyond a constantly recurring debian-devel thread and towards something that we can implement. Just saying we should use .desktop files is not sufficient; the standard isn't clear, Debian isn't following the standard currently, and there's no migration strategy. Closing those gaps is hard and necessary work, and until someone has a chance to do that work, this will stay stuck at the recurring conversation stage. Le Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 09:44:29PM +0200, Bill Allombert a écrit : I am only the 'Debian menu maintainer' and I do not have time or interest to maintain the .desktop files in Debian. Instead people (not you) ask me transparently to stop maintaining menu and maintain the .desktop files instead, but no one is willing to do the work. (And of course .desktop is about 10% of the XDG spec). Hi all, From my maintainer point of view, the current situation leads to maintain in parallel two files with similar information and different syntax, with the main difference being that in the .desktop - .menu conversion the translations are discarded. The big advantage of the .desktop format is also that it can be forwarded upstream, so that it reduces the complexity of our packages and is useful to the whole communauty. This is exactly the contrary of adding a burden on the Debian maintainers and Bill. I think that Russ is very pessimistic on the quality of the XDG desktop entry sepcification. It uses a simple syntax and 18 different keys, only 4 of them being required. Many of the Lintian errors noted earlier in this thread are related to the desktop menu specification, which is a separate document. http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/ Now we are close to Lenny release, and there is enough to keep us very busy until September, but after this, if Bill is interested, how about writing a DEP (Debian Enhancement Proposal)? Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Debian-Med packaging team, Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 00:12:23 +0200 From: Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: William Pitcock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Daniel Dickinson [EMAIL PROTECTED], debian-policy@lists.debian.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu On Sat, Jul 05, 2008 at 03:15:28AM -0500, William Pitcock wrote: Hi, On Sat, 2008-07-05 at 02:42 -0400, Daniel Dickinson wrote: For discussion: Gnome, KDE, and XFCE are the the top three desktops used in debian and cover most users of desktops in debian. They all use xdg .desktop-based menus as their main menu. xdg .desktop-based menus are not covered by policy. Honestly, policy really needs to be updated to use the XDG standards menu spec, and every WM at this point really should be using them for their menus. I think the debian-menu system should be seen as legacy, since it has been replaced with a standard used and supported by many upstreams and many other distros. However, there's a few places where debian-menu is a better solution though. (It can be used to build menus for many WMs which do not support XDG, but honestly, do we need all these WMs?) First of all: Yes, we do. Personally, I prefer not to use one of those 'desktop environment' thingies, since they annoy me. One of the main reasons why people use Linux is choice; we should give them that choice, not take it away and give users a pre-chewed monocultural environment (if you want that, go to Windows, MacOS, or Ubuntu). Second: XDG has less features than debian-menu currently does. For instance, unless I'm mistaken it's not possible to specify in an XDG .desktop file that a particular application is a curses or similar application that requires an xterm or some such, which is possible with menu. Due to this feature, it's also possible to have a package like pdmenu for non-graphical systems. Another solution would be to make debian-menu build .desktop entries for the menu in the main menu namespace and not the 'Debian' namespace; this seems like the easiest solution. The separation of a Debian menu and a desktop menu has been seen by some as a feature. I remember a post on Planet Debian by one of the GNOME maintainers (although I don't recall who it was) who explicitly said that he would not like to see non-GNOME applications in the GNOME menu but outside the Debian section. It is not unreasonable to state that it may be confusing for people to have a menu containing both GNOME and non-GNOME applications on a shared system; after all, different UI toolkits often have different UI guidelines and concepts; mixing those is not necessarily a good idea. -- Lo-lan-do Home is where you have to wash the dishes. -- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:11:44 + (UTC) From: Sune Vuorela [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: debian-policy@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu On 2008-07-06, Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: of Debian KDE/Gnome packaging/menu policy to get the proper subset of the packages in menu (e.g. moving Gnome/gtk applications deeper in KDE menu and Qt/KDE - in Gnome one). The users should have equal access to good programs. Are you commenting on OnlyShowIn? This feature is not meant to list No. the thing that makes moving Gnome/gtk application deeper in KDE menu... /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:43:32 +0200 From: Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu Le dimanche 06 juillet 2008 à 21:01 +0200, Loïc Minier a écrit : There are only 47 desktop files with OnlyShowIn on my system out of 218 desktop files installed, so it's not used too wildly I would say. Well, there should be much more than that, see #478286 which is still here despite the fix being trivial. -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 21:01:15 +0200 From: Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], debian-policy@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu On Sun, Jul 06, 2008, Sune Vuorela wrote: On 2008-07-06, Mikhail Gusarov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: fd.o menus are designed to allow distro-specific policy. It's the matter of Debian KDE/Gnome packaging/menu policy to get the proper subset of the packages in menu (e.g. moving Gnome/gtk applications deeper in KDE menu and Qt/KDE - in Gnome one). I actually don't like this - just as I don't like the kde and gnome package sections. The users should have equal access to good programs. Are you commenting on OnlyShowIn? This feature is not meant to list all GNOME-ish apps in GNOME and KDE-ish apps in KDE. It's meant to prevent some silly things to display across desktops. For instance gnome-about (About GNOME) shouldn't show in the KDE menus, nor should the configuration applets for window management, keyboard etc. which touch GNOME specific GConf settings, or nautilus-cd-burner... There are only 47 desktop files with OnlyShowIn on my system out of 218 desktop files installed, so it's not used too wildly I would say. (Some of these are probably bogus.) Most people (no matter what desktop they are using) thinks that - amarok is better than the gnome equivalent (rythmbox?) there isn't one GNOME player; I don't know whether amarok is OnlyShowIn KDE, but Rhythmbox should show up in KDE menus, just like Banshee and I hope the other players as well (Quodlibet, etc.). - gimp is better than the kde equivalent (released versions of krita) - kontact and evolution - fits different to different people These don't have an OnlyShowIn here and should show up in KDE menus. -- Loïc Minier -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 17:51:13 + (UTC) From: Sune Vuorela [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: debian-policy@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu On 2008-07-06, Mikhail Gusarov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: fd.o menus are designed to allow distro-specific policy. It's the matter of Debian KDE/Gnome packaging/menu policy to get the proper subset of the packages in menu (e.g. moving Gnome/gtk applications deeper in KDE menu and Qt/KDE - in Gnome one). I actually don't like this - just as I don't like the kde and gnome package sections. The users should have equal access to good programs. Most people (no matter what desktop they are using) thinks that - amarok is better than the gnome equivalent (rythmbox?) - gimp is better than the kde equivalent (released versions of krita) - kontact and evolution - fits different to different people At least, the KDE section seems to be a nice dumping ground for anything that links against kdelibs - and in some cases just Qt. /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:02:02 -0500 From: Gunnar Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: William Pitcock [EMAIL PROTECTED], Daniel Dickinson [EMAIL PROTECTED], debian-policy@lists.debian.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu Wouter Verhelst dijo [Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 12:12:23AM +0200]: The separation of a Debian menu and a desktop menu has been seen by some as a feature. I remember a post on Planet Debian by one of the GNOME maintainers (although I don't recall who it was) who explicitly said that he would not like to see non-GNOME applications in the GNOME menu but outside the Debian section. It is not unreasonable to state that it may be confusing for people to have a menu containing both GNOME and non-GNOME applications on a shared system; after all, different UI toolkits often have different UI guidelines and concepts; mixing those is not necessarily a good idea. Maybe the menu name should be changed - All of the applications that appear both in the desktop-specific and in the Debian menu are Debian-provided. I think the Debian section should be renamed, to avoid confusion, to not desktop-integrated or such. -- Gunnar Wolf - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:51:16 +0200 From: Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 484656 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu Le lundi 07 juillet 2008 à 02:48 -0400, Daniel Dickinson a écrit : And depends on the package maintainer being cooperative. Because there is no debian policy on this if a package maintainer disagrees they don't have to hide their menu entry. Yes, that’s probably the most important issue with the current situation; nothing prevents the Java maintainer from adding a useless Java policy tool icon in the Preferences menu, even though it has nothing to do with the preferences and no one except a small number of professional Java developers will have anything to do with it. -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:27:43 +0200 From: Michelle Konzack [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-policy@lists.debian.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu Hello Josselin, Am 2008-07-06 14:28:15, schrieb Josselin Mouette: the restrictions of the Debian menu system (no i18n support, 32x32 XPM icons, strict hierarchy), these goals are simply not compatible. For Fvwm it is not right, since you can do $[gt.Hello] and in the ~/.fvwm/config I use LocalePath /usr/share/locale;fvwm-menu:+ I was working last year on this stuff, but since my whole network was destrcted by an very heavy over-voltage the development has stoped. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 +49/177/935194750, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:44:29 +0200 From: Bill Allombert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-policy@lists.debian.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu On Sun, Jul 06, 2008 at 01:08:40PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Josselin Mouette wrote: Therefore, I still feel that, despite it being a big mess, the current situation is the best: * the default menu contains only what is needed, and we are still hunting down entries that are useless to make them not show up by default; * users wanting the Debian menu and its gazillions of entries including window managers, terminal emulators and shell interpreters can enable it easily in the menu editor; * those really wanting only the Debian menu can replace gnome-applications.menu by debian-menu.menu. If you want this to change, you need to seriously think about evolutions to both XDG and Debian menu systems, to convince fd.o and the Debian menu maintainer to implement them Actually, no, if you want this to change, you have only to do nothing. People (many of them MOTUs from Ubuntu in my experience) are filing lots of requestes for random packages to have .desktop files added to them, so they appear in the gnome menu. The criteria seems to be a program that $RANDOM_USER would like to have on the menu and files a bug about || that $RANDOM_UPSTREAM ships a desktop file for, for whatever reason. So, after sufficient time, the gnome menu will contain a random assortment of the menu items that also appear in the debian menu. Not a well-chosen and consistent assortment, but the kind of random assortment that you get when you ignore policy and go off on your own way. I agree with you, but I am only the 'Debian menu maintainer' and I do not have time or interest to maintain the .desktop files in Debian. Instead people (not you) ask me transparently to stop maintaining menu and maintain the .desktop files instead, but no one is willing to do the work. (And of course .desktop is about 10% of the XDG spec). Cheers, -- Bill. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Imagine a large red swirl here. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 14:28:15 +0200 From: Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Daniel Dickinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: debian-policy@lists.debian.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu Le samedi 05 juillet 2008 à 02:42 -0400, Daniel Dickinson a écrit : Gnome, KDE, and XFCE are the the top three desktops used in debian and cover most users of desktops in debian. They all use xdg .desktop-based menus as their main menu. The last time this discussion was raised up, the clear consensus was that, at least for the GNOME menu, the primary goals of the xdg-based menu system and those of the Debian menu are fundamentally different. The GNOME menu is aimed towards usability, and the Debian menu is aimed towards completeness. Given the capabilities of the GNOME panel (for which adding submenus is neither easy nor efficient in terms of usability), the limitations of the XDG system (for which it is not possible to define “views” including or excluding some categories) and the restrictions of the Debian menu system (no i18n support, 32x32 XPM icons, strict hierarchy), these goals are simply not compatible. Therefore, I still feel that, despite it being a big mess, the current situation is the best: * the default menu contains only what is needed, and we are still hunting down entries that are useless to make them not show up by default; * users wanting the Debian menu and its gazillions of entries including window managers, terminal emulators and shell interpreters can enable it easily in the menu editor; * those really wanting only the Debian menu can replace gnome-applications.menu by debian-menu.menu. If you want this to change, you need to seriously think about evolutions to both XDG and Debian menu systems, to convince fd.o and the Debian menu maintainer to implement them, and to find a good way to present them in a nice way in the main menu and in a menu editor. None of these tasks are simple. -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 13:08:40 -0400 From: Joey Hess [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-policy@lists.debian.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu Josselin Mouette wrote: Therefore, I still feel that, despite it being a big mess, the current situation is the best: * the default menu contains only what is needed, and we are still hunting down entries that are useless to make them not show up by default; * users wanting the Debian menu and its gazillions of entries including window managers, terminal emulators and shell interpreters can enable it easily in the menu editor; * those really wanting only the Debian menu can replace gnome-applications.menu by debian-menu.menu. If you want this to change, you need to seriously think about evolutions to both XDG and Debian menu systems, to convince fd.o and the Debian menu maintainer to implement them Actually, no, if you want this to change, you have only to do nothing. People (many of them MOTUs from Ubuntu in my experience) are filing lots of requestes for random packages to have .desktop files added to them, so they appear in the gnome menu. The criteria seems to be a program that $RANDOM_USER would like to have on the menu and files a bug about || that $RANDOM_UPSTREAM ships a desktop file for, for whatever reason. So, after sufficient time, the gnome menu will contain a random assortment of the menu items that also appear in the debian menu. Not a well-chosen and consistent assortment, but the kind of random assortment that you get when you ignore policy and go off on your own way. -- see shy jo -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 00:13:30 +0700 From: Mikhail Gusarov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-policy@lists.debian.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu Twas brillig at 13:08:40 06.07.2008 UTC-04 when [EMAIL PROTECTED] did gyre and gimble: JH So, after sufficient time, the gnome menu will contain a random JH assortment of the menu items that also appear in the debian menu. fd.o menus are designed to allow distro-specific policy. It's the matter of Debian KDE/Gnome packaging/menu policy to get the proper subset of the packages in menu (e.g. moving Gnome/gtk applications deeper in KDE menu and Qt/KDE - in Gnome one). -- -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484656: Fw: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu
Begin forwarded message: Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 15:13:46 +0200 From: Bernhard R. Link [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], debian-policy@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu * Daniel Dickinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [080705 09:05]: xdg .desktop-based menus are not covered by policy. I think this is an important point to acknowledge by all people wanting to see more .desktop files: There is no policy how to use the fields in them. Currently most people just copy the files from their upstreams. That cannot work to get a coherent system. When Debian packages use .desktop files from other packages in Debian, there should be a Debian policy what those files may contain and what not. The system also misses massively documentation. Perhaps it got better in between, but last time I looked it totally missed any documentation except and lengthy document that seemed to be targeted on writers of menu programs displaying. Nothing how to overwrite items as user, not wher to put them to test them, not even the actual paths (only some placeholders without explanation everywhere). The main menu (meaning the primary menu used for program selection; I don't include quick access menus which have a small selection of often used programs) should either be the debian-menu or all packages which are supposed to have menu entires should also be required to supply .desktop files. Having a dual-menu scheme in policy is ugly. Currently the debian-menu is a submenu of the main menu, called 'Debian'. This is indeed very ugly. But I think that is not so much a technical problem, but more a problem of different opinions what a menu should be like. Because from what I gathered in the previous discussions about this, an important reason gnome and kde maintainers refuse to use the Debian menu is that then all the programs (even the text and ugly X programs) would be in the menu equal to the other ones. Switching to .desktop files would of course not fix that, as then all the other programs would have .desktop files, too. The Debian menu system could easily be extended to have some more tags describing such properties (perhaps some ShowAlsoInKDENoviceMode tag or whatever), but that would need an honest discussion about the aims. desktops that want to have .desktop entries for specific programs ought to be responsible for creating the code that merges the debian main menu with their main menu (e.g. in menu-xdg), rather than forcing every other application in debian to do their work for them. I think the easiest solution would be to have some additional tag that menu-xdg uses to filter out menu entries that also have a .desktop file. (hopefully it already has, that only needs documentation, otherwise it should be added), and then policy should say that each package should use this tag to specifiy which entries in the Debian menu are duplicated by a .desktop file. Hochachtungsvoll, Bernhard R. Link -- Never contain programs so few bugs, as when no debugging tools are available! Niklaus Wirth -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org No more sea shells: Daniel's Webloghttp://cshore.wordpress.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
