Re: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
Hi, Britton == Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Britton Good individuals will almost invariably harbor a few bad Britton individual ideas, for whatever reason. This is especially Britton true in the technical fields. The process appears to be Britton sufficiently democratic that this doesn't matter, but Britton rotation would ensure that it wouldn't. I think you may be right n the first count: the process appears to be sufficiently democratic that this doesn't matter, and we do not need to add bureaucratic overhead to aid that (what ain't broke ...) Britton [...] in a way I think was bad for Debian. Dave got his back Britton up. Mayby he wouldn't have stayed anyway, but I think it was Britton a shame to lose him. He made CDs, he presumably told his Britton friends abou Debian, brought them CDs the next day, etc. There are some things I would not subject myself to just for the sake of Debian's popularity. I prefer to have a group of people around that work together well enough to be conducive to the synergy that is Debian. manoj -- We Americans, we're a simple people... but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities. Robin Williams, _Good Morning Vietnam_ Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
Re: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
On 28 Oct 1997, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Hi, Britton == Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Britton Good individuals will almost invariably harbor a few bad Britton individual ideas, for whatever reason. This is especially Britton true in the technical fields. The process appears to be Britton sufficiently democratic that this doesn't matter, but Britton rotation would ensure that it wouldn't. I think you may be right n the first count: the process appears to be sufficiently democratic that this doesn't matter, and we do not need to add bureaucratic overhead to aid that (what ain't broke ...) I guess the question is how much overhead would really be imposed. It does not seem to me like changing from one competent and fully informed leader (eg Bruce) to another (eg Ian) every 2 years would be too hard. The recent talk about the filesystem standard is a good examle. Ian doesn't want to go along with it in some places. I don't really know enough to say if this is good or bad, but it looks almost certain to be a sticking point, with some potential outcomes being bad (years of failure to conform, or years of living with a bad standard). Britton [...] in a way I think was bad for Debian. Dave got his back Britton up. Mayby he wouldn't have stayed anyway, but I think it was Britton a shame to lose him. He made CDs, he presumably told his Britton friends abou Debian, brought them CDs the next day, etc. There are some things I would not subject myself to just for the sake of Debian's popularity. I prefer to have a group of people Fair enough, but the reaction didn't exactly stop Dave, just the opposite in fact. And of course popularity is synonymous with survival in the end. I should note that I don't recall seeing anything particularly insulting from you Manoj, your debate has always been conducted respectfully. around that work together well enough to be conducive to the synergy that is Debian. manoj -- We Americans, we're a simple people... but piss us off, and we'll bomb your cities. Robin Williams, _Good Morning Vietnam_ Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
Re: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
M == M W Blunier [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: M On 27 Oct 1997, Manoj Srivastava wrote: What problems are term limits supposed to solve, exactly? M They prevent the voters from re-electing someone that due to M his entrenchment in the system, has more power than a freshman M would have. Greedy and self serving voters vote for the M incumbant not because is better for the larger comunity, but M because he can use the power for the people that voted for M them. What power does Bruce have that someone running against him wouldn't have? M This is especially prevelant in US politics. For example, it M would be very difficult to beat Ted Kennedy in an election, as M he has enough power from the committees he chairs and the votes M he can trade with his other cronies that it would cost his M state a lot of money if he were replaced by someone else. You just made a HUGE leap my friend. US Government and Debian are more than a tad different. (Hey Bruce, I'll vote for you if you make sure jobs get generated in my district from that Debian powered power plant ;-}). M Hopefully the members of the Debian board is not motivated by M self serving reasons, and are smarter that the typical M American. Most Americans realize they all ready have term limits. They are called elections. When it comes to US positions, sure the Incumbents have an advantage due to the money and influence they can shift around during election time. You have a pretty weak argument if you are saying this applies to Debian like it does in the US Government. This is not a yes or no on Ted Kennedy, but if he was doing that bad of a job wouldn't he have been out of office a long time ago? To buy your argument, the Republicans would have to be under-funded and never have been in a position of power during Ted's office. Think about it. Sorry for being off-topic, but I couldn't help it. Bruce has done a hell of a job and is now getting smashed on the Net for doing so. Look at your screen and decide if you want to be reaping the benefits of Bruce and all the other Debian developers or Bill Gates's work. If you want term limits, think about Bill, not Bruce. Glenn -- Glenn Amerine Inet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer Systems AnalystVoice: (614)224-1336 Metropolitan Human Services Commission Fax: (614)224-6472
Re: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Glenn Amerine wrote: M == M W Blunier [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: M On 27 Oct 1997, Manoj Srivastava wrote: What problems are term limits supposed to solve, exactly? M They prevent the voters from re-electing someone that due to M his entrenchment in the system, has more power than a freshman M would have. Greedy and self serving voters vote for the M incumbant not because is better for the larger comunity, but M because he can use the power for the people that voted for M them. What power does Bruce have that someone running against him wouldn't have? M This is especially prevelant in US politics. For example, it M would be very difficult to beat Ted Kennedy in an election, as M he has enough power from the committees he chairs and the votes M he can trade with his other cronies that it would cost his M state a lot of money if he were replaced by someone else. You just made a HUGE leap my friend. US Government and Debian are more than a tad different. (Hey Bruce, I'll vote for you if you make sure jobs get generated in my district from that Debian powered power plant ;-}). Heck, I'd vote for Bruce if he ran for President. Mayby this isn't what you were saying though. M Hopefully the members of the Debian board is not motivated by M self serving reasons, and are smarter that the typical M American. Most Americans realize they all ready have term limits. They are called elections. When it comes to US positions, sure the Incumbents have an advantage due to the money and influence they can shift around during election time. You have a pretty weak argument if you are saying this applies to Debian like it does in the US Government. What I like about the term limits idea is that they permit authority to be rotated around regularly with no hard feelings anywhere. I would feel bad voting Bruce out of office after all the work he has done. Term limits make change automatic, which is perhaps good. This is not a yes or no on Ted Kennedy, but if he was doing that bad of a job wouldn't he have been out of office a long time ago? To buy So I take it you are from Vladivodstock or some such place? your argument, the Republicans would have to be under-funded and never have been in a position of power during Ted's office. Think about it. Sorry for being off-topic, but I couldn't help it. Bruce has done a hell of a job and is now getting smashed on the Net for doing so. Look at your screen and decide if you want to be reaping the benefits of Bruce and all the other Debian developers or Bill Gates's work. If you want term limits, think about Bill, not Bruce. I don't mean it to be unpleasant or ungrateful to Bruce, just the opposite in fact. I don't like to think of any Debian volunteer stepping down after being voted out, term limits seem to me like a better idea for this reason and others. Glenn -- Glenn Amerine Inet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer Systems Analyst Voice: (614)224-1336 Metropolitan Human Services CommissionFax: (614)224-6472
Re: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
Hi, Richard == Richard Braakman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Richard M W Blunier wrote: On 27 Oct 1997, Manoj Srivastava wrote: What problems are term limits supposed to solve, exactly? They prevent the voters from re-electing someone that due to his entrenchment in the system, has more power than a freshman would have. Greedy and self serving voters vote for the incumbant not because is better for the larger comunity, but because he can use the power for the people that voted for them. Richard Hm. I can't say I agree with this view. The problem is that Richard when someone has been leader for too long, it becomes very Richard difficult to imagine anyone else in that position. How many Richard Debian developers remember when Bruce was not project leader? I do. And I resent the implication that Debian developers are stupid sheep (umm, though voting is fairly intelligent for sheep) who can't decide on the merits of candidates. Also, if the developers want to elect someone, why should they be thwarted by someone right now who thinks he knows better than them? What does make you think you know better than the collective Debian group at election ime, to a-priory restrict their choices? Even without an inkling of how matters stand? Richard However, I don't think term limits are a good answer to this. Richard They're much too harsh and inflexible. It seems much better Richard to simply count it as a possible reason to vote for someone Richard else this year. I'm happy with Bruce as project leader, but Richard I worry that the project might come to depend on him too Richard much. That, sir, is your riht. Imposing term limits on me (as a voter) is not. (Oh, I'll never run for any office. I don't have the right temprament). manoj -- I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid the artificial person, from _Aliens_ Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
Re: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
Hi, Britton == Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Britton What I like about the term limits idea is that they permit Britton authority to be rotated around regularly with no hard Britton feelings anywhere. I would feel bad voting Bruce out of Britton office after all the work he has done. Term limits make Britton change automatic, which is perhaps good. Why is rotation of officers beneficial? I understand rotation in crops and agriculture, but in my team at work, I'd make a horrible document writer or a vms client design/code person. Why does authority rotation make sense? espescially as authority is not an disembodied entity passed around like a baton; it comes encumbered with responsibility and needs time commitments. This is not a yes or no on Ted Kennedy, but if he was doing that bad of a job wouldn't he have been out of office a long time ago? To buy Britton So I take it you are from Vladivodstock or some such place? Huh? Britton I don't mean it to be unpleasant or ungrateful to Bruce, just Britton the opposite in fact. I don't like to think of any Debian Britton volunteer stepping down after being voted out, term limits Britton seem to me like a better idea for this reason and others. Oh, bruce is tough. He can take it. Waste no tears on him (sorry, bruce). And I don't think that the job of the president is for the sensitive types anyway. Herding cats is not for the thinskinned. manoj -- The more you have, the more you have that needs fixing. Karl Lehenbauer Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
Re: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
Hi, M == M W Blunier [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: M On 27 Oct 1997, Manoj Srivastava wrote: What problems are term limits supposed to solve, exactly? M They prevent the voters from re-electing someone that due to his M entrenchment in the system, has more power than a freshman would M have. Greedy and self serving voters vote for the incumbant not M because is better for the larger comunity, but because he can use M the power for the people that voted for them. So, you are arguing that Debian developers are too stupid to elect someone on merit, and we like people who have been elected already mindlessly. Unlike general election, the larger campaign war chest of an incumbent does not apply on the mailing lists. Use the power for people who voted for him --- (bruce supports his constituency by giving people *yet* more unpaid work and responsibilitites. Darn. That doesn't work. Bruce takes away juicy packages and gives them to his cronies. Ummm. Bruce rewards cronies by giving them less work, so they aer no longer developers. Ooops). M This is especially prevelant in US politics. For example, it would M be very difficult to beat Ted Kennedy in an election, as he has M enough power from the committees he chairs and the votes he can M trade with his other cronies that it would cost his state a lot of M money if he were replaced by someone else. This. Is. Not. US. Politics. M Hopefully the members of the Debian board is not motivated by self M serving reasons, and are smarter that the typical American. You think the congress can put together a distribution like Debian? manoj -- HOFSTADTER'S LAW: Everything takes longer and costs more than expected, even when taking into account Hofstadter's Law. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
Re: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
On 28-Oct-97 Manoj Srivastava wrote: You think the congress can put together a distribution like Debian? manoj Yes ... and they would call it Slacklaw.
RE: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
On 27-Oct-97 Richard G. Roberto wrote: I fear that I've come to a conclusion that may bring a fair bit of flame mail my way, but Dave Cinege has to be dealt with. We must revoke his license to victimize the community at large. There is an expression in the US ... you have the right to swing your arms but that right ends where my nose begins. He can practice freedom of speech elsewhere on the net. Freedom to speak is one thing, disrupting a forum designed to facillitate the accomplishment of work and supporting users is something different. My personal opinion is that he is using his freedom of speech to impeed the quiet enjoyment of the distribution by others. In other words, I am starting to feel that the postings are nothing more than chaff designed to jam the mailing lists and he relies on freedom of speech as armor. In the US, the government can not prosecute you for your views but your neighbors can tell you to shut the hell up and throw you in jail for disturbing the peace. PROPOSAL FOR TERM LIMITS I completely disagree with this. The people that vote are smart enough to know if their leadership is competant of if a fresh face is needed or if an opponent would make a better leader. What is all boils down to is who do the developers want to work for. They are voting for their boss. If I had a good boss, I would hate to loos him if we wanted him and he wanted to stay but had to go just because of some arbitrary rule. By the by, for the record, I think Bruce is a huge asset to debian as a computer scientist and as project leader. I think people forget the traveling he does, the hours he spends helping folks in debian-user, keeping the distribution focused, I think he was even flooded out last winter for a while during the rain in California but still kept up with things somehow. Remember that these are not just names at the end of email messages, these are real people. It is easy to stare into a tube and attack someone that is to you only words on your CRT but on the other end those words look out onto a real face of a real person that has a job, a home, and is still managing to guide the distribution because right now, he seems to think that it is a good thing to do. I, for one, am thankful for it. I happen to like debian as it exists right now and hope for beter things in the future. Debian does not OWE me a distribution. It exists because people want it to exist and work hard at it. At some point when the kid gets older and I put in less time commuting, I might be able to contribute more myself and maybe I might be asked to help out in some way. In the meantime, I loose respect for someone that demands inclusion on the team without at least continued maintenance of a contrib package with a track record of quality product. DC can bugger off. gb
Re: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
Britton == Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [snip] Britton Heck, I'd vote for Bruce if he ran for President. Mayby Britton this isn't what you were saying though. I'd vote for him to. [snip] Britton What I like about the term limits idea is that they Britton permit authority to be rotated around regularly with no Britton hard feelings anywhere. I would feel bad voting Bruce Britton out of office after all the work he has done. Term Britton limits make change automatic, which is perhaps good. This is not a yes or no on Ted Kennedy, but if he was doing that bad of a job wouldn't he have been out of office a long time ago? To buy Britton So I take it you are from Vladivodstock or some such Britton place? Not at all. I wasn't saying yes or no to Ted. You can substitute any politician you want. I used Ted because he was in an original post. Britton I don't mean it to be unpleasant or ungrateful to Bruce, Britton just the opposite in fact. I don't like to think of any Britton Debian volunteer stepping down after being voted out, Britton term limits seem to me like a better idea for this reason Britton and others. I'm not sure I follow you on this. Term limits are good because they make volunteers step down rather than being voted out? Glenn -- Glenn Amerine Inet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer Systems AnalystVoice: (614)224-1336 Metropolitan Human Services Commission Fax: (614)224-6472
Re: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Manoj Srivastava) wrote on 27.10.97 in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Use the power for people who voted for him --- (bruce supports his constituency by giving people *yet* more unpaid work and responsibilitites. Darn. That doesn't work. Bruce takes away juicy packages and gives them to his cronies. Ummm. Bruce rewards cronies by giving them less work, so they aer no longer developers. Ooops). and You think the congress can put together a distribution like Debian? CJ|NK, or something. Can we vote Manoj chief Debian comedy officer? I feel much better now, thank you! MfG Kai (still laughing)
On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
Sorry to have come into this so late, but I was tuned in to a different soap opera ;) This is not the first time someone has requested that Bruce be impeached or removed from his post as project leader, or president, or whatever it is currently. This is the first time Dave Cinege has done it. Its usually not met with such unilateral support for Bruce. This is a testimony to how frightening an individual Dave Cinege really is. On the one hand, I do think most of his posts are hilarious. On the other hand, he's sent some that I thought bordered on violent criminal intent. I believe in a freedom much broader than the GPL, but freedom is a right only as long as it doesn't become an instrument for victimization. I fear that I've come to a conclusion that may bring a fair bit of flame mail my way, but Dave Cinege has to be dealt with. We must revoke his license to victimize the community at large. He can practice freedom of speech elsewhere on the net. Please digest-ize his (apparently private) domain. However, please do not include the digest posting to debian-user (or debian-user-digest) as was the case a few weeks ago. As far as Bruce goes, I sometimes think he's a putz. But then again, I sometimes think I'm a putz, so there. That's a part of life. I do remember that Bruce was not going to pursue project leadership at all last term, but then changed his mind and accepted nomination to the Board of Directors. He was later elected president by this board, behind closed doors. He then stated that this would be his last year as leader, a sort of turnover year. That, of course, has not been the case. I think Bruce has done an enormous service to Debian. His contribution has been so significant, I can't begin to thank him for it. He's done an absolutely outstanding job. But its time to pass the baton. I sincerely hope the election will be between more than just two candidates. I also think that there should be a formal term limit decided. Below, I have proposed such a limit. For all I know there may already be one, but recent posts suggest otherwise. PROPOSAL FOR TERM LIMITS I propose that all elected posts in the Debian organization be subject to the following term limits: All terms will necessarily be limited to no more than two consecutive years, unless there is no electoral challenge for the post. If there is only one challenge, there must be a fair election between incumbent and challenger. But if there are two challengers, and the incumbent has served two consecutive years, the incumbent is necessarily replaced by one of the two challengers. I suggest that this is for the greater good of the project. Change is good. It keeps things fresh. The above should apply to all elected posts, and all who hold them. If agreed upon, this policy should apply from this time forward (limiting any one post currently held by anyone, necessarily open in the event of an electoral challenge for the year 2000.) Since Bruce has already held his position for longer than two years, I suggest he consider the above policy request. If he finds it sound, he should endorse it and withdraw his nomination for re-election (although the policy would not require it until the year 2000.) This does not mean that Bruce (or anyone) needs to become uninvolved in the Debian process. Indeed, we have many contributers who are not project leader ;) Bruce was indeed a major contributer _before_ he became project leader. I suspect he'll be a major contributor in any event. This has been sent to debian-user since that's where I got the original thread from. It has also been cross posted to debian-policy, in the event anyone actually gives a rat's behind about the proposal ;) By the by, for the record, I think Bruce is a huge asset to debian as a computer scientist and as project leader. Thanks -- Until we extend the circle of our compassion to all living things, we will not ourselves find peace -Albert Schweitzer Richard G. Roberto
Re: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
Hi, I think term limits may not be the panacea that people think they are. 1) Unlike general elections, incumbents do not have more money to spend than challengers 2) Unlike general elections, incumbents do not get more into the constituents eye (any body can mail on the lists any time) 3) I hope we are less lackadaisical than the genral case and do not continue electing incumbents from sheer sloth 4) Term limits may also force us to loose valuable talent, even if they are the best fit for the job at hand 5) Term limits have litte technical merit; they are merely political devices. I think that the election to any post in Debian should be based on merit. What problems are term limits supposed to solve, exactly? manoj -- I will defend to your death my right to my opinion. Author Unknown Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ Key C7261095 fingerprint = CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
Re: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Syrus Nemat-Nasser wrote: On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Richard G. Roberto wrote: [snip] PROPOSAL FOR TERM LIMITS I propose that all elected posts in the Debian organization be subject to the following term limits: I actually like this proposal. I have no problem with Bruce, he has done a gret job. I just don't see the point in making the process of succession so competitive. The limits need not be short. Richards other points were quite good also. So, Richard. Are you ready to commit a lot of your private time to becoming project leader for a year? Will you step to the plate and pledge away a significant portion of your life to Debian? If not, then I suggest that you retract your proposal. I don't have the time or expertise required to do Bruce's job. Do you? When and if there is a viable candidate that shows the same dedication and resposibility to the project as Bruce, then I will gladly support him or her. Until then, a proposal like this is meaningless IMHO. Well, there is Ian Jackson. I don't really know enough to decide between them myself. Thanks. Syrus. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Syrus Nemat-Nasser [EMAIL PROTECTED]UCSD Physics Dept.
Re: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
On 27 Oct 1997, Manoj Srivastava wrote: What problems are term limits supposed to solve, exactly? They prevent the voters from re-electing someone that due to his entrenchment in the system, has more power than a freshman would have. Greedy and self serving voters vote for the incumbant not because is better for the larger comunity, but because he can use the power for the people that voted for them. This is especially prevelant in US politics. For example, it would be very difficult to beat Ted Kennedy in an election, as he has enough power from the committees he chairs and the votes he can trade with his other cronies that it would cost his state a lot of money if he were replaced by someone else. Hopefully the members of the Debian board is not motivated by self serving reasons, and are smarter that the typical American. Mark
Re: On Bruce Perens and Dave Cinege, etc.
M W Blunier wrote: On 27 Oct 1997, Manoj Srivastava wrote: What problems are term limits supposed to solve, exactly? They prevent the voters from re-electing someone that due to his entrenchment in the system, has more power than a freshman would have. Greedy and self serving voters vote for the incumbant not because is better for the larger comunity, but because he can use the power for the people that voted for them. Hm. I can't say I agree with this view. The problem is that when someone has been leader for too long, it becomes very difficult to imagine anyone else in that position. How many Debian developers remember when Bruce was not project leader? However, I don't think term limits are a good answer to this. They're much too harsh and inflexible. It seems much better to simply count it as a possible reason to vote for someone else this year. I'm happy with Bruce as project leader, but I worry that the project might come to depend on him too much.
