Re: Supported Hardware ?
Le 25/10/2016 06:19, Lennart Sorensen a écrit : That one would be powerpcspe, not powerpc, unless I have misunderstood the e500v2. e300, e500mc, e5500 and e6500 are all normal sane powerpc designs, while e500v1 and e500v2 are the SPE chips that don't have normal powerpc FPUs. Whyever would they be playing with that chip? I would expect them to hit software compatibility problems. I suppose since AmigaOS never really did worry about FPU (most Amigas never had one), a powerpc build that doesn't use the FPU much would run on either, and they could even use math libraries (which I seem to recall AmigaOS always did anyhow) to hide the difference in architecture of the hardware. The only way I see they could be running Debian on that board, is with a custom built kernel with MATH_EMULATION enabled. That might be what they have done. I do see one of the blog pages running powerpcspe on it instead, which makes more sense. Hey. This is something I've been testing for years on SBCs with Freescale MPC8540 and MPC8548E. MPC8540 (e500v1): the kernel must be compiled with -mcpu=8540 (with math emul of course); compiled for generic powerpc, even with math emul, it doesn't run. Then Debian for Powerpc runs OK. Means the illegal FP instructions which are trapped by kernel math emulation are the generic ppc FP instructions, not the e500v2. Those have been running in production for years. MPC8548E (e500v2): compiling the kernel is no problem, but of course Debian for Powerpc doesn't work, and math emul is impossible. The only way is the powerpcspe port. Didn't exist when I needed it and I gave up. Didier
Re: Supported Hardware ?
On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 09:45:29PM +0200, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) wrote: > That is indeed the case. > > That's what the sane part of the Amiga world has been asking for a while. > > That's what the sane part of the Amiga world has been telling for a while. > :) Oh good, everyone seems to agree then. > That doesn't apply to Amiga PowerPC software. All Amiga PowerPC systems > and expansion cards from the very early days had a full standard PPC FPU. > (We are talking about almost two decades of compatibility in this case.) Hmm, that does make sense. OK, this board should just die and go away then. :) I only have an over equipped A500, so no ppc amiga for me so far. > So this board will be an exception in every possible sense, and either > incompatible with existing software base, or running them with a huge > penalty hit. Heck, almost all performance-intensive PPC software is full > with hand-optimized stuff like memcopy with FPU, and so on, to squeeze > out all bits of performance from the previous low-end boards which were > the only ones available... > > Yes, the A1222 is running powerpcspe, although some ran the normal powerpc > kernel as well with math emu, but it's "not recommended", AFAIK. Certainly it doesn't look like linux distributions for powerpc tend to ship with MATH_EMULATION enabled in their kernels. So to claim the board is compatible with standard linux distributions for powerpc is false. > For AmigaOS, where most of the software, esp. legacy ones only exist in > binary distributions, they always make an analogy with the "software > supported" FPU of the 68040 and 68060 CPUs (in short for those unfamiliar: > those CPUs never implemented the full 68881 FPU instruction set, mainly > trigonometry-related instructions were missing, and they were supported by > a software library provided by Motorola for user space apps), meaning that > because that was working reasonably well, this should be working fine too > in the end. > > Obviously anyone with that reasoning doesn't get the depth of the problem > in this case. Yes the 68k programs used the libraries because most hardware didn't have an FPU so the libraries were handy. It makes sense for PPC code to expect an FPU. > I'd say a "performance hit" is quite an understatement, given the existing > software base. But we'll see. At least not many of their betatesters is > so willing to post benchmarks, which is always an answer to many > questions... I remember the difference between arm and armel and then armhf. Emulation of hardware sucks when you trap, and using libraries when you could use hardware directly also sucks (but not as much). > Yeah, same here. I wonder if they will sell any. -- Len Sorensen
Re: Supported Hardware ?
Hi, On Mon, 24 Oct 2016, Lennart Sorensen wrote: > That one would be powerpcspe, not powerpc, unless I have misunderstood > the e500v2. e300, e500mc, e5500 and e6500 are all normal sane powerpc > designs, while e500v1 and e500v2 are the SPE chips that don't have normal > powerpc FPUs. That is indeed the case. > Whyever would they be playing with that chip? That's what the sane part of the Amiga world has been asking for a while. > I would expect them to hit software compatibility problems. That's what the sane part of the Amiga world has been telling for a while. :) > I suppose since AmigaOS never really did worry about FPU (most Amigas > never had one), a powerpc build that doesn't use the FPU much would > run on either, and they could even use math libraries (which I seem to > recall AmigaOS always did anyhow) to hide the difference in architecture > of the hardware. That doesn't apply to Amiga PowerPC software. All Amiga PowerPC systems and expansion cards from the very early days had a full standard PPC FPU. (We are talking about almost two decades of compatibility in this case.) So this board will be an exception in every possible sense, and either incompatible with existing software base, or running them with a huge penalty hit. Heck, almost all performance-intensive PPC software is full with hand-optimized stuff like memcopy with FPU, and so on, to squeeze out all bits of performance from the previous low-end boards which were the only ones available... > The only way I see they could be running Debian on that board, is with > a custom built kernel with MATH_EMULATION enabled. That might be what > they have done. I do see one of the blog pages running powerpcspe on > it instead, which makes more sense. Yes, the A1222 is running powerpcspe, although some ran the normal powerpc kernel as well with math emu, but it's "not recommended", AFAIK. For AmigaOS, where most of the software, esp. legacy ones only exist in binary distributions, they always make an analogy with the "software supported" FPU of the 68040 and 68060 CPUs (in short for those unfamiliar: those CPUs never implemented the full 68881 FPU instruction set, mainly trigonometry-related instructions were missing, and they were supported by a software library provided by Motorola for user space apps), meaning that because that was working reasonably well, this should be working fine too in the end. Obviously anyone with that reasoning doesn't get the depth of the problem in this case. > But at least you can run powerpc on the X1000 and X5000, even if the > A1222 can without a custom kernel and a performance hit on FPU code. I'd say a "performance hit" is quite an understatement, given the existing software base. But we'll see. At least not many of their betatesters is so willing to post benchmarks, which is always an answer to many questions... > Too bad in the past at least they cost way more than I was willing to pay. Yeah, same here. Charlie
Re: Supported Hardware ?
On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 03:51:01PM +0200, Christian Zigotzky wrote: > A-EON Technology has released some new PowerPC computers. Debian PPC works > in these computers. > > AmigaOne X5000 (Freescale P5020 CPU 2GHz, 64-bit e5500 dual-core PowerPC > SoC) > > Links: > http://www.amigaos.net/hardware/133/amigaone-x5000 > http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-1.pdf > http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-3.pdf > https://www.facebook.com/AEonTechnologyLtd/photos/a.461608890516168.110788.447768335233557/1359104280766620/?type=3&theater > http://wiki.amiga.org/index.php?title=AmigaONE_X5000 > > > AmigaOne X1000 (P.A. Semi PA6T-1682M CPU 1.8GHz, 64-bit dual-core PowerPC > SoC) > > Links: > http://www.amigaos.net/hardware/35/amigaone-x1000 > http://www.a-eon.com/?page=x1000 > http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-5.pdf > http://www.supertuxkart-amiga.de/amiga/x1000.html > http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewforum.php?f=35 > > > In development: > > AmigaOne X5000 (Freescale P5040 CPU 2.2GHz, 64-bit e5500 quad-core PowerPC > SoC) > > AmigaOne A1222 (Freescale P1022 CPU 1.2GHz, 32-bit, e500v2, dual-core > PowerPC SoC) That one would be powerpcspe, not powerpc, unless I have misunderstood the e500v2. e300, e500mc, e5500 and e6500 are all normal sane powerpc designs, while e500v1 and e500v2 are the SPE chips that don't have normal powerpc FPUs. Whyever would they be playing with that chip? I would expect them to hit software compatibility problems. I suppose since AmigaOS never really did worry about FPU (most Amigas never had one), a powerpc build that doesn't use the FPU much would run on either, and they could even use math libraries (which I seem to recall AmigaOS always did anyhow) to hide the difference in architecture of the hardware. The only way I see they could be running Debian on that board, is with a custom built kernel with MATH_EMULATION enabled. That might be what they have done. I do see one of the blog pages running powerpcspe on it instead, which makes more sense. But at least you can run powerpc on the X1000 and X5000, even if the A1222 can without a custom kernel and a performance hit on FPU code. Too bad in the past at least they cost way more than I was willing to pay. > Links: > http://a-eon.biz/news/News_Release_A1222.pdf > http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/X500_case.jpg > http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/X500_case2.jpg > http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Tabor_Booting.jpg > http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/01/my-a1222-has-arrived.html > http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/01/debian-linux-on-amigaone-a1222.html > http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/02/new-case-for-amigaone-a1222.html > http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/02/classic-amiga-emulation-on-amigaone.html > http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/07/amigaone-a1222-debian-9-build.html > > > AmigaOne Linux PPC screenshots and some information: > https://plus.google.com/u/0/115515624056477014971 > > > We are a very active Linux PPC community with some new PowerPC computers. > ;-) -- Len Sorensen
Re: Supported Hardware ?
typo. :-( I meant: Debian PPC works on these computers. -- Christian On 10/24/16 3:51 PM, Christian Zigotzky wrote: Hi All, A-EON Technology has released some new PowerPC computers. Debian PPC works in these computers. AmigaOne X5000 (Freescale P5020 CPU 2GHz, 64-bit e5500 dual-core PowerPC SoC) Links: http://www.amigaos.net/hardware/133/amigaone-x5000 http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-1.pdf http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-3.pdf https://www.facebook.com/AEonTechnologyLtd/photos/a.461608890516168.110788.447768335233557/1359104280766620/?type=3&theater http://wiki.amiga.org/index.php?title=AmigaONE_X5000 AmigaOne X1000 (P.A. Semi PA6T-1682M CPU 1.8GHz, 64-bit dual-core PowerPC SoC) Links: http://www.amigaos.net/hardware/35/amigaone-x1000 http://www.a-eon.com/?page=x1000 http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-5.pdf http://www.supertuxkart-amiga.de/amiga/x1000.html http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewforum.php?f=35 In development: AmigaOne X5000 (Freescale P5040 CPU 2.2GHz, 64-bit e5500 quad-core PowerPC SoC) AmigaOne A1222 (Freescale P1022 CPU 1.2GHz, 32-bit, e500v2, dual-core PowerPC SoC) Links: http://a-eon.biz/news/News_Release_A1222.pdf http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/X500_case.jpg http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/X500_case2.jpg http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Tabor_Booting.jpg http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/01/my-a1222-has-arrived.html http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/01/debian-linux-on-amigaone-a1222.html http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/02/new-case-for-amigaone-a1222.html http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/02/classic-amiga-emulation-on-amigaone.html http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/07/amigaone-a1222-debian-9-build.html AmigaOne Linux PPC screenshots and some information: https://plus.google.com/u/0/115515624056477014971 We are a very active Linux PPC community with some new PowerPC computers. ;-) Cheers, Christian On 10/24/16 2:52 PM, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) wrote: Hi, On Mon, 24 Oct 2016, Antoine Durand wrote: after reading the Supported Hardware doc https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/powerpc/ch02s01.html.en#idp40476048 I still can't understand if the following NXP/Freescale PowerPC Cpus are supported or not That page seems to contain some obsolete information if you ask me... Like, does current Debian even work on OldWorld PCI PowerMac? MPC8641D I'm pretty confident this has e600 cores, which is an updated version of the PowerPC 7400 series, which Apple called the "G4". So this is normal 32bit PowerPC, with Altivec, so normal powerpc branch in Debian. T1042 T2081 These should be e5500 and e6500 cores, therefore they're PowerPC64, but *not* PPC64LE, they are only able to run in big endian. That is, if the kernel has support for them, but I think it does. They also should be able to run a PPC32 kernel, much like the 8641D, but I'm not sure that combination is actually supported. The e5500 core doesn't have Altivec extensions, the e6500 has, if i'm correct. Can anybody confirm or explain which PowerPC branch they belong ? Thank You Very Much, Hopefully I got it right. :) Maybe someone will correct me if I was wrong. Cheers, -- Charlie
Re: Supported Hardware ?
Hi All, A-EON Technology has released some new PowerPC computers. Debian PPC works in these computers. AmigaOne X5000 (Freescale P5020 CPU 2GHz, 64-bit e5500 dual-core PowerPC SoC) Links: http://www.amigaos.net/hardware/133/amigaone-x5000 http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-1.pdf http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-3.pdf https://www.facebook.com/AEonTechnologyLtd/photos/a.461608890516168.110788.447768335233557/1359104280766620/?type=3&theater http://wiki.amiga.org/index.php?title=AmigaONE_X5000 AmigaOne X1000 (P.A. Semi PA6T-1682M CPU 1.8GHz, 64-bit dual-core PowerPC SoC) Links: http://www.amigaos.net/hardware/35/amigaone-x1000 http://www.a-eon.com/?page=x1000 http://a-eon.biz/18-10-2013-5.pdf http://www.supertuxkart-amiga.de/amiga/x1000.html http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewforum.php?f=35 In development: AmigaOne X5000 (Freescale P5040 CPU 2.2GHz, 64-bit e5500 quad-core PowerPC SoC) AmigaOne A1222 (Freescale P1022 CPU 1.2GHz, 32-bit, e500v2, dual-core PowerPC SoC) Links: http://a-eon.biz/news/News_Release_A1222.pdf http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/X500_case.jpg http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/X500_case2.jpg http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Tabor_Booting.jpg http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/01/my-a1222-has-arrived.html http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/01/debian-linux-on-amigaone-a1222.html http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/02/new-case-for-amigaone-a1222.html http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/02/classic-amiga-emulation-on-amigaone.html http://amigax1000.blogspot.de/2016/07/amigaone-a1222-debian-9-build.html AmigaOne Linux PPC screenshots and some information: https://plus.google.com/u/0/115515624056477014971 We are a very active Linux PPC community with some new PowerPC computers. ;-) Cheers, Christian On 10/24/16 2:52 PM, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) wrote: Hi, On Mon, 24 Oct 2016, Antoine Durand wrote: after reading the Supported Hardware doc https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/powerpc/ch02s01.html.en#idp40476048 I still can't understand if the following NXP/Freescale PowerPC Cpus are supported or not That page seems to contain some obsolete information if you ask me... Like, does current Debian even work on OldWorld PCI PowerMac? MPC8641D I'm pretty confident this has e600 cores, which is an updated version of the PowerPC 7400 series, which Apple called the "G4". So this is normal 32bit PowerPC, with Altivec, so normal powerpc branch in Debian. T1042 T2081 These should be e5500 and e6500 cores, therefore they're PowerPC64, but *not* PPC64LE, they are only able to run in big endian. That is, if the kernel has support for them, but I think it does. They also should be able to run a PPC32 kernel, much like the 8641D, but I'm not sure that combination is actually supported. The e5500 core doesn't have Altivec extensions, the e6500 has, if i'm correct. Can anybody confirm or explain which PowerPC branch they belong ? Thank You Very Much, Hopefully I got it right. :) Maybe someone will correct me if I was wrong. Cheers, -- Charlie
Re: Supported Hardware ?
Ok, so : - powerpc port for MPC8641D (e600) is ok - maybe powerpc too for T1042 (e5500) and T2081 (e6500) but with a 64 bits kernel, not ppc64el (they may run little endian but they don't have VSX nor altivec, or only big endian altivec) Thank you,I think I got it. 2016-10-24 15:56 GMT+02:00 Konstantinos Margaritis : > Στις 24-10-2016, ημέρα Δευ, και ώρα 09:45 -0400, ο/η Lennart Sorensen > έγραψε: > > Running powerpc with the 64bit kernel is probably the best bet for > > those. > > > > At least the 6500 is supposed to be able to run little endian as far > > as > > I know, but I don't think it can run ppc64el. The altivec part is > > big > > endian only though. > > It cannot run ppc64el, that one includes VSX in the ABI by default, > which 6500 lacks. Also, its altivec part )saw it as Altivec 2 > somewhere) by FSL (with extra instructions), is also different than > plain altivec supported by other IBM cpus. So, code tuned for 6500's > altivec unit won't even run on big-endian IBM cpus. Good job, > Freescale. > > Konstantinos
Re: Supported Hardware ?
Στις 24-10-2016, ημέρα Δευ, και ώρα 09:45 -0400, ο/η Lennart Sorensen έγραψε: > Running powerpc with the 64bit kernel is probably the best bet for > those. > > At least the 6500 is supposed to be able to run little endian as far > as > I know, but I don't think it can run ppc64el. The altivec part is > big > endian only though. It cannot run ppc64el, that one includes VSX in the ABI by default, which 6500 lacks. Also, its altivec part )saw it as Altivec 2 somewhere) by FSL (with extra instructions), is also different than plain altivec supported by other IBM cpus. So, code tuned for 6500's altivec unit won't even run on big-endian IBM cpus. Good job, Freescale. Konstantinos signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: ppc64el porter situation
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 09:01:26PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > Are they developing new powerpc products? AMCC? I have no idea. Maybe not. Freescale certainly seems to be. > Their latest products are also pretty ARM. That they are. > Are you talking about new e6500 SoCs, or are you only talking about > support for existing products? New ones. > I have no doubt they will continue to provide support for e6500 for > several years, just like they supported SoCs with SPE cpus in their > SDK until December 2015. > > They released only two e6500 based SoCs for QorIQ (T2080 and T4240),[1] > and for one of them samples of ARM replacements are already available. They are not intended as replacements, just alternatives. Some people have powerpc code and see no reason to port to a little endian platform (which can be a pain in the rear). Some would rather have more options for CPUs and would like ARM. The IO bits seem to be identical between the powerpc and arm chips, so at least that only needs to be developed once. Now I suppose if demand disappears they will change their plans, but at least the place I was working until a few months ago, we were told that they were going to continue designing new powerpc and arm chips. We explicitly asked if powerpc was a dead end going forward (we were already using freescale ppc chips in some designs, and arm chips in other designs, so either was an option for us). > These are anyway big endian, but the general situation is that there > is not much powerpc development left that does not depend on IBM. I do agree that people are not running little endian on the freescale chips. -- Len Sorensen
Re: Supported Hardware ?
On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 02:52:47PM +0200, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, 24 Oct 2016, Antoine Durand wrote: > > > after reading the Supported Hardware doc > > https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/powerpc/ch02s01.html.en#idp40476048 > > I still can't understand if the following NXP/Freescale PowerPC Cpus are > > supported or not > > That page seems to contain some obsolete information if you ask me... > Like, does current Debian even work on OldWorld PCI PowerMac? > > > MPC8641D > > I'm pretty confident this has e600 cores, which is an updated version of > the PowerPC 7400 series, which Apple called the "G4". So this is normal > 32bit PowerPC, with Altivec, so normal powerpc branch in Debian. > > > T1042 > > T2081 > > These should be e5500 and e6500 cores, therefore they're PowerPC64, but > *not* PPC64LE, they are only able to run in big endian. That is, if the > kernel has support for them, but I think it does. They also should be able > to run a PPC32 kernel, much like the 8641D, but I'm not sure that > combination is actually supported. Running powerpc with the 64bit kernel is probably the best bet for those. At least the 6500 is supposed to be able to run little endian as far as I know, but I don't think it can run ppc64el. The altivec part is big endian only though. > The e5500 core doesn't have Altivec extensions, the e6500 has, if i'm > correct. > > > Can anybody confirm or explain which PowerPC branch they belong ? > > Thank You Very Much, > > Hopefully I got it right. :) Maybe someone will correct me if I was wrong. I think it was pretty good. -- Len Sorensen
Re: Supported Hardware ?
Hi, On Mon, 24 Oct 2016, Antoine Durand wrote: > after reading the Supported Hardware doc > https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/powerpc/ch02s01.html.en#idp40476048 > I still can't understand if the following NXP/Freescale PowerPC Cpus are > supported or not That page seems to contain some obsolete information if you ask me... Like, does current Debian even work on OldWorld PCI PowerMac? > MPC8641D I'm pretty confident this has e600 cores, which is an updated version of the PowerPC 7400 series, which Apple called the "G4". So this is normal 32bit PowerPC, with Altivec, so normal powerpc branch in Debian. > T1042 > T2081 These should be e5500 and e6500 cores, therefore they're PowerPC64, but *not* PPC64LE, they are only able to run in big endian. That is, if the kernel has support for them, but I think it does. They also should be able to run a PPC32 kernel, much like the 8641D, but I'm not sure that combination is actually supported. The e5500 core doesn't have Altivec extensions, the e6500 has, if i'm correct. > Can anybody confirm or explain which PowerPC branch they belong ? > Thank You Very Much, Hopefully I got it right. :) Maybe someone will correct me if I was wrong. Cheers, -- Charlie
Supported Hardware ?
Hi, after reading the Supported Hardware doc https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/powerpc/ch02s01.html.en#idp40476048 I still can't understand if the following NXP/Freescale PowerPC Cpus are supported or not MPC8641D T1042 T2081 Can anybody confirm or explain which PowerPC branch they belong ? Thank You Very Much, -- Antoine
