Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 11/08/2016 10:10 AM, Thadeu Lima de Souza Cascardo wrote:
>> The best thing that could happen right now was a company approaching
>> Debian, emphasizing the importance of the powerpc architecture for
>> their business, and declaring they will hire two Debian Developers who
>> will contribute to the project as part of their job. But let's not
>> hope for a miracle.

Someone could send a mail to Cumulus Networks which are apparently providing
a Linux distribution based on Debian which supports current PowerPC-based
switches like the Broadcom Trident/Trident+/Trident2 [1].

Adrian

> [1] https://cumulusnetworks.com/support/linux-hardware-compatibility-list/

-- 
 .''`.  John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' :  Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org
`. `'   Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de
  `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546  0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Thadeu Lima de Souza Cascardo]

On Fri, Nov 04, 2016 at 07:16:00PM +0100, Christoph Biedl wrote:
> luigi burdo wrote...
> 
> > Im thinking to start a petition about ... "dont kill debian penguins on 
> > powerpc"
> 
> Don't. The release team folks are not politicians who get convinced by
> a lot of noise. Unless I completely misunderstand their position, the
> only question that matters is: Can we (as the Debian project) be sure
> powerpc will have backing until EOL stretch (somewhen 2020)?
> 
> The right answer is to create trust for this, not whining around.
> 
> The best thing that could happen right now was a company approaching
> Debian, emphasizing the importance of the powerpc architecture for
> their business, and declaring they will hire two Debian Developers who
> will contribute to the project as part of their job. But let's not
> hope for a miracle.
> 
> A remaining idea was was to appeal and ask for a grace peroid. This
> appeal requires substantiation: Several people would have to sign
> this, people who are well-established contributors to the Debian
> project so it is certain they can do the job and their enthusiasm
> will last (I wouldn't expect I would qualify for that). And during
> that grace period, some two or three weeks, we, the powerpc people,
> show significant progress by fixing all the open issues. The fact
> #832931 did not get resolved in due course was one of things that hit
> the reputation quite badly.

I just got a G4 machine last week and did a succesful build of mariadb.
I sent an update to the bug report and will try to do the build on a
porter box.

Cascardo.

> 
> Even if the appeal is unsuccessful on any stage, a clean backlog will
> certainly help to have jessie-LTS for powerpc, and re-entry as well.
> So please start cracking.
> 
> Christoph

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Dragan Stojkovic]

I'm willing to support somehow.
I own several PowerPC (G4 & G5) machines and could also spent some time for 
doing testings.

I studied IT in 2000 and since then I haven’t spent much time on real IT stuff. 
Only IS Service- and Release Mgmt so far. I even don’t remember the last time i 
installed Eclipse or similar IDEs.
If someone is able and willing to do some more fancy stuff on PowerPC arch, I 
could donate one or two of my machines. They are all located in Switzerland.
This would be a much better idea than to let them gather dust in a corner.

Just let me know how I could support you.

Regards
Dragan


> Am 04.11.2016 um 19:34 schrieb Christoph Biedl 
> :
> 
> Herminio Hernandez Jr.  wrote...
> 
>> To say that no one stepped forward is not true. Adrian stepped up
>> and asked to be the porter for PowerPC.
> 
> Digging in the past isn't very helpful, but there one thing I'd like
> to understand: Nobody responded to the initial role call in August.
> Some folks had done this for jessie some two years ago. Who were they?
> Are they still around? Did they silently disappear, or did they sign
> off somewhat formally?
> 
> I was quite shocked to learn so few people are backing this
> architecture. I'm afraid I couldn't spend more time on this but real
> life was pretty tough in the past weeks, and my job is slowly killing
> me.
> 
> And personally I'm cut as well - with powerpc I finally saw a niche
> where I could do something useful without interference of the Debian
> bullies. Some boxes are on their way to me, I had plans to rebuild the
> entire archive on G4 CPU systems since appearently there are more
> issues that don't show on the G5 buildds - I'm not sure how much of
> this I will still do.
> 
> Also I consider big-endian architectures crucial: There still is a
> tremendous amount of endianness bugs in the code, powerpc helps to
> detect them.
> 
>Christoph

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[luigi burdo]

Had been some one try to contact NXP

about?


Luigi



Da: Christoph Biedl <debian.a...@manchmal.in-ulm.de>
Inviato: venerdì 4 novembre 2016 19.16
A: PowerPC List Debian
Oggetto: Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

luigi burdo wrote...

> Im thinking to start a petition about ... "dont kill debian penguins on 
> powerpc"

Don't. The release team folks are not politicians who get convinced by
a lot of noise. Unless I completely misunderstand their position, the
only question that matters is: Can we (as the Debian project) be sure
powerpc will have backing until EOL stretch (somewhen 2020)?

The right answer is to create trust for this, not whining around.

The best thing that could happen right now was a company approaching
Debian, emphasizing the importance of the powerpc architecture for
their business, and declaring they will hire two Debian Developers who
will contribute to the project as part of their job. But let's not
hope for a miracle.

A remaining idea was was to appeal and ask for a grace peroid. This
appeal requires substantiation: Several people would have to sign
this, people who are well-established contributors to the Debian
project so it is certain they can do the job and their enthusiasm
will last (I wouldn't expect I would qualify for that). And during
that grace period, some two or three weeks, we, the powerpc people,
show significant progress by fixing all the open issues. The fact
#832931 did not get resolved in due course was one of things that hit
the reputation quite badly.

Even if the appeal is unsuccessful on any stage, a clean backlog will
certainly help to have jessie-LTS for powerpc, and re-entry as well.
So please start cracking.

Christoph

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Christoph Biedl]

Herminio Hernandez Jr.  wrote...

> To say that no one stepped forward is not true. Adrian stepped up
> and asked to be the porter for PowerPC.

Digging in the past isn't very helpful, but there one thing I'd like
to understand: Nobody responded to the initial role call in August.
Some folks had done this for jessie some two years ago. Who were they?
Are they still around? Did they silently disappear, or did they sign
off somewhat formally?

I was quite shocked to learn so few people are backing this
architecture. I'm afraid I couldn't spend more time on this but real
life was pretty tough in the past weeks, and my job is slowly killing
me.

And personally I'm cut as well - with powerpc I finally saw a niche
where I could do something useful without interference of the Debian
bullies. Some boxes are on their way to me, I had plans to rebuild the
entire archive on G4 CPU systems since appearently there are more
issues that don't show on the G5 buildds - I'm not sure how much of
this I will still do.

Also I consider big-endian architectures crucial: There still is a
tremendous amount of endianness bugs in the code, powerpc helps to
detect them.

Christoph


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Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Christoph Biedl]

luigi burdo wrote...

> Im thinking to start a petition about ... "dont kill debian penguins on 
> powerpc"

Don't. The release team folks are not politicians who get convinced by
a lot of noise. Unless I completely misunderstand their position, the
only question that matters is: Can we (as the Debian project) be sure
powerpc will have backing until EOL stretch (somewhen 2020)?

The right answer is to create trust for this, not whining around.

The best thing that could happen right now was a company approaching
Debian, emphasizing the importance of the powerpc architecture for
their business, and declaring they will hire two Debian Developers who
will contribute to the project as part of their job. But let's not
hope for a miracle.

A remaining idea was was to appeal and ask for a grace peroid. This
appeal requires substantiation: Several people would have to sign
this, people who are well-established contributors to the Debian
project so it is certain they can do the job and their enthusiasm
will last (I wouldn't expect I would qualify for that). And during
that grace period, some two or three weeks, we, the powerpc people,
show significant progress by fixing all the open issues. The fact
#832931 did not get resolved in due course was one of things that hit
the reputation quite badly.

Even if the appeal is unsuccessful on any stage, a clean backlog will
certainly help to have jessie-LTS for powerpc, and re-entry as well.
So please start cracking.

Christoph


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Description: Digital signature

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[luigi burdo]

yes...and you are only calculating the laptop ...
when there are T2080 and T4080 Servers and X5000, X5000/20 and X5000/040

Luigi


Da: Joe Nosay <superbisq...@gmail.com>
Inviato: venerdì 4 novembre 2016 16.33
A: luigi burdo
Cc: PowerPC List Debian; Herminio Hernandez Jr.
Oggetto: Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

A shame seeing that there is a laptop being developed that is powerpc.
http://www.powerpc-notebook.org/en/
[http://i1.wp.com/www.powerpc-notebook.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/join_powerpc_notebook_team-300x188.jpg?fit=300%2C188]<http://www.powerpc-notebook.org/en/>

GNU/Linux PowerPC notebook - To make this happen a new 
...<http://www.powerpc-notebook.org/en/>
www.powerpc-notebook.org
The game has changed, now GNU/Linux is everywhere running on every CPU 
architectures and devices. It's the right time to make new choices, a new 
PowerPC Notebook ...




On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:31 AM, luigi burdo 
<intermedi...@hotmail.com<mailto:intermedi...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

yes no support for all PPC BE , PPC64 too.

Only PPCLE (power8 and power9) are supported.


Luigi



Da: Joe Nosay <superbisq...@gmail.com<mailto:superbisq...@gmail.com>>
Inviato: venerdì 4 novembre 2016 16.25
A: luigi burdo
Cc: Herminio Hernandez Jr.; PowerPC List Debian
Oggetto: Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

Does this mean no support for e6500?

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:13 AM, luigi burdo 
<intermedi...@hotmail.com<mailto:intermedi...@hotmail.com>> wrote:


Im thinking to start a petition about ... "dont kill debian penguins on powerpc"

Luigi

Da: Herminio Hernandez Jr. 
<herminio.hernande...@gmail.com<mailto:herminio.hernande...@gmail.com>>
Inviato: venerdì 4 novembre 2016 11.05
A: Christoph Biedl
Cc: PowerPC List Debian
Oggetto: Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

To say that no one stepped forward is not true. Adrian stepped up and asked to 
be the porter for PowerPC. There was an entire thread on PowerPC qualifying for 
Stretch where he stated his desire to support it. In the end his request was 
turned down.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 2:08 AM, Christoph Biedl 
> <debian.a...@manchmal.in-ulm.de<mailto:debian.a...@manchmal.in-ulm.de>> wrote:
>
> Lennart Sorensen wrote...
>
>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 09:09:56AM -0700, Herminio Hernandez Jr.  wrote:
>>> Is there even a chance for PowerPC to return as a release architecture for 
>>> Debian 10 or is that just wishful thinking.
>>
>> Well as pointed out in the meeting, it does not seem any architecture
>> has ever done so.
>
> I bet never before an architecture got kicked out that is ranking as
> number 4 according to popcon. The question is, are there enough people
> that are willing to support powerpc in Debian? The way downhill began
> when nobody stepped forward in the role call.
>
>Christoph
>

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Joe Nosay]

A shame seeing that there is a laptop being developed that is powerpc.
http://www.powerpc-notebook.org/en/

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:31 AM, luigi burdo <intermedi...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> yes no support for all PPC BE , PPC64 too.
>
> Only PPCLE (power8 and power9) are supported.
>
>
> Luigi
>
>
> --
> *Da:* Joe Nosay <superbisq...@gmail.com>
> *Inviato:* venerdì 4 novembre 2016 16.25
> *A:* luigi burdo
> *Cc:* Herminio Hernandez Jr.; PowerPC List Debian
> *Oggetto:* Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'
>
> Does this mean no support for e6500?
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:13 AM, luigi burdo <intermedi...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Im thinking to start a petition about ... "dont kill debian penguins on
>> powerpc"
>>
>> Luigi
>> --
>> *Da:* Herminio Hernandez Jr. <herminio.hernande...@gmail.com>
>> *Inviato:* venerdì 4 novembre 2016 11.05
>> *A:* Christoph Biedl
>> *Cc:* PowerPC List Debian
>> *Oggetto:* Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'
>>
>> To say that no one stepped forward is not true. Adrian stepped up and
>> asked to be the porter for PowerPC. There was an entire thread on PowerPC
>> qualifying for Stretch where he stated his desire to support it. In the end
>> his request was turned down.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Nov 4, 2016, at 2:08 AM, Christoph Biedl <
>> debian.a...@manchmal.in-ulm.de> wrote:
>> >
>> > Lennart Sorensen wrote...
>> >
>> >>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 09:09:56AM -0700, Herminio Hernandez Jr.
>> wrote:
>> >>> Is there even a chance for PowerPC to return as a release
>> architecture for Debian 10 or is that just wishful thinking.
>> >>
>> >> Well as pointed out in the meeting, it does not seem any architecture
>> >> has ever done so.
>> >
>> > I bet never before an architecture got kicked out that is ranking as
>> > number 4 according to popcon. The question is, are there enough people
>> > that are willing to support powerpc in Debian? The way downhill began
>> > when nobody stepped forward in the role call.
>> >
>> >Christoph
>> >
>>
>>
>

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[luigi burdo]

yes no support for all PPC BE , PPC64 too.

Only PPCLE (power8 and power9) are supported.


Luigi



Da: Joe Nosay <superbisq...@gmail.com>
Inviato: venerdì 4 novembre 2016 16.25
A: luigi burdo
Cc: Herminio Hernandez Jr.; PowerPC List Debian
Oggetto: Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

Does this mean no support for e6500?

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:13 AM, luigi burdo 
<intermedi...@hotmail.com<mailto:intermedi...@hotmail.com>> wrote:


Im thinking to start a petition about ... "dont kill debian penguins on powerpc"

Luigi

Da: Herminio Hernandez Jr. 
<herminio.hernande...@gmail.com<mailto:herminio.hernande...@gmail.com>>
Inviato: venerdì 4 novembre 2016 11.05
A: Christoph Biedl
Cc: PowerPC List Debian
Oggetto: Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

To say that no one stepped forward is not true. Adrian stepped up and asked to 
be the porter for PowerPC. There was an entire thread on PowerPC qualifying for 
Stretch where he stated his desire to support it. In the end his request was 
turned down.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 2:08 AM, Christoph Biedl 
> <debian.a...@manchmal.in-ulm.de<mailto:debian.a...@manchmal.in-ulm.de>> wrote:
>
> Lennart Sorensen wrote...
>
>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 09:09:56AM -0700, Herminio Hernandez Jr.  wrote:
>>> Is there even a chance for PowerPC to return as a release architecture for 
>>> Debian 10 or is that just wishful thinking.
>>
>> Well as pointed out in the meeting, it does not seem any architecture
>> has ever done so.
>
> I bet never before an architecture got kicked out that is ranking as
> number 4 according to popcon. The question is, are there enough people
> that are willing to support powerpc in Debian? The way downhill began
> when nobody stepped forward in the role call.
>
>Christoph
>

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Joe Nosay]

Does this mean no support for e6500?

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:13 AM, luigi burdo <intermedi...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Im thinking to start a petition about ... "dont kill debian penguins on
> powerpc"
>
> Luigi
> --
> *Da:* Herminio Hernandez Jr. <herminio.hernande...@gmail.com>
> *Inviato:* venerdì 4 novembre 2016 11.05
> *A:* Christoph Biedl
> *Cc:* PowerPC List Debian
> *Oggetto:* Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'
>
> To say that no one stepped forward is not true. Adrian stepped up and
> asked to be the porter for PowerPC. There was an entire thread on PowerPC
> qualifying for Stretch where he stated his desire to support it. In the end
> his request was turned down.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 4, 2016, at 2:08 AM, Christoph Biedl <
> debian.a...@manchmal.in-ulm.de> wrote:
> >
> > Lennart Sorensen wrote...
> >
> >>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 09:09:56AM -0700, Herminio Hernandez Jr.
> wrote:
> >>> Is there even a chance for PowerPC to return as a release architecture
> for Debian 10 or is that just wishful thinking.
> >>
> >> Well as pointed out in the meeting, it does not seem any architecture
> >> has ever done so.
> >
> > I bet never before an architecture got kicked out that is ranking as
> > number 4 according to popcon. The question is, are there enough people
> > that are willing to support powerpc in Debian? The way downhill began
> > when nobody stepped forward in the role call.
> >
> >Christoph
> >
>
>

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[luigi burdo]

Im thinking to start a petition about ... "dont kill debian penguins on powerpc"

Luigi

Da: Herminio Hernandez Jr. <herminio.hernande...@gmail.com>
Inviato: venerdì 4 novembre 2016 11.05
A: Christoph Biedl
Cc: PowerPC List Debian
Oggetto: Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

To say that no one stepped forward is not true. Adrian stepped up and asked to 
be the porter for PowerPC. There was an entire thread on PowerPC qualifying for 
Stretch where he stated his desire to support it. In the end his request was 
turned down.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 2:08 AM, Christoph Biedl <debian.a...@manchmal.in-ulm.de> 
> wrote:
>
> Lennart Sorensen wrote...
>
>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 09:09:56AM -0700, Herminio Hernandez Jr.  wrote:
>>> Is there even a chance for PowerPC to return as a release architecture for 
>>> Debian 10 or is that just wishful thinking.
>>
>> Well as pointed out in the meeting, it does not seem any architecture
>> has ever done so.
>
> I bet never before an architecture got kicked out that is ranking as
> number 4 according to popcon. The question is, are there enough people
> that are willing to support powerpc in Debian? The way downhill began
> when nobody stepped forward in the role call.
>
>Christoph
>

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Herminio Hernandez Jr.]

To say that no one stepped forward is not true. Adrian stepped up and asked to 
be the porter for PowerPC. There was an entire thread on PowerPC qualifying for 
Stretch where he stated his desire to support it. In the end his request was 
turned down. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 2:08 AM, Christoph Biedl  
> wrote:
> 
> Lennart Sorensen wrote...
> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 09:09:56AM -0700, Herminio Hernandez Jr.  wrote:
>>> Is there even a chance for PowerPC to return as a release architecture for 
>>> Debian 10 or is that just wishful thinking. 
>> 
>> Well as pointed out in the meeting, it does not seem any architecture
>> has ever done so.
> 
> I bet never before an architecture got kicked out that is ranking as
> number 4 according to popcon. The question is, are there enough people
> that are willing to support powerpc in Debian? The way downhill began
> when nobody stepped forward in the role call.
> 
>Christoph
> 

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[luigi burdo]

Hi Debian mantainers,

for understand how much people are interested in installing linux on powerpc 
(powermac g5) just check

this video views https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5yZ9oF_mgU

it was created 3 months ago ... and have "only"  more than 70.000 views.

Hope you will understand this choice was a really worst choice.

Luigi

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Rick Thomas]

On Nov 3, 2016, at 11:17 PM, Christoph Biedl  
wrote:

> Herminio Hernandez, Jr. wrote...
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Rick Thomas  wrote:
>> 
>>> Will there be an LTS (long-term-support) release for powerpc — best would
>>> be one based on Jessie?
>> 
>> No there is no lts for ppc only i386, amd64, and arm
>> 
>> https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/
> 
> Perhaps Rick's question was about a future jessie-LTS for powerpc.
> That would extend powerpc support beyond around spring 2018. I bet the
> LTS folks will not object in general. However somebody, more than one
> person, should be willing and able to support this.
> 
> It's however more than a year until this becomes an issue.
> 
>Christoph

Thanks, Christoph…  Yes, that was my question.  I’m hoping to get another 
couple of good years out of my old PowerPC Macs before security updates stop 
being available.

I’ll volunteer to do what I can to help with the support effort.  I’m not a 
developer but I can certainly test new software and provide detailed reports to 
the developers.  I’ve got over 40 years of professional experience doing just 
that!

Rick

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Christoph Biedl]

Herminio Hernandez Jr.  wrote...

> I saw that after I asked the question. It just really stinks. 

Keep it down. From an outsider's point of view the decision is more
than understandable. Their interest is only "are there enough people
willing to support powerpc?", and the indications were pretty bad.
Reading the log I cannot see any bias against powerpc in general,
rather the opposite.

Christoph


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Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Christoph Biedl]

Herminio Hernandez, Jr. wrote...

> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Rick Thomas  wrote:
> 
> > Will there be an LTS (long-term-support) release for powerpc — best would
> > be one based on Jessie?
>
> No there is no lts for ppc only i386, amd64, and arm
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/

Perhaps Rick's question was about a future jessie-LTS for powerpc.
That would extend powerpc support beyond around spring 2018. I bet the
LTS folks will not object in general. However somebody, more than one
person, should be willing and able to support this.

It's however more than a year until this becomes an issue.

Christoph


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Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Christoph Biedl]

Lennart Sorensen wrote...

> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 09:09:56AM -0700, Herminio Hernandez Jr.  wrote:
> > Is there even a chance for PowerPC to return as a release architecture for 
> > Debian 10 or is that just wishful thinking. 
> 
> Well as pointed out in the meeting, it does not seem any architecture
> has ever done so.

I bet never before an architecture got kicked out that is ranking as
number 4 according to popcon. The question is, are there enough people
that are willing to support powerpc in Debian? The way downhill began
when nobody stepped forward in the role call.

Christoph

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[txt.file]

There are some architectures which have once been release architectures
but are now 'only' available in sid. E.g. alpha (slink to lenny), hppa
(woody to lenny) or m68k (hamm to etch). The only architecture I see
which once was release but I am unable to find in sid is ia64.[0]

In summary: PowerPC is not dead (yet).

And to everybody working on keeping PowerPC alive and usable. A big
thank you. If everything works out I will attend 33C3 with at least 5
cpu architectures. ;-) Among them powerPC and sparc64.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_version_history#Port_timeline
--
This message is signed.

Herminio Hernandez, Jr.:
> There is some hope then...
> 
> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:56 PM, Thadeu Lima de Souza Cascardo <
> casca...@minaslivre.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 04:34:15PM -0700, Herminio Hernandez, Jr. wrote:
>>> I have they in the past kept and architecture that was dropped as a
>> release
>>> arch?
>>
>> GNU/kFreeBSD was released as a technology preview for squeeze, kept as
>> TP in wheezy, then not made part of the jessie. I can't find it in
>> testing, but I see it in sid. So, it doesn't have any chance of being
>> part of a new release, as far as I understand, but it's still kept in
>> the archive.
>>
>> Cascardo.
>>


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Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Herminio Hernandez, Jr.]

There is some hope then...

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:56 PM, Thadeu Lima de Souza Cascardo <
casca...@minaslivre.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 04:34:15PM -0700, Herminio Hernandez, Jr. wrote:
> > I have they in the past kept and architecture that was dropped as a
> release
> > arch?
>
> GNU/kFreeBSD was released as a technology preview for squeeze, kept as
> TP in wheezy, then not made part of the jessie. I can't find it in
> testing, but I see it in sid. So, it doesn't have any chance of being
> part of a new release, as far as I understand, but it's still kept in
> the archive.
>
> Cascardo.
>

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Thadeu Lima de Souza Cascardo]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 04:34:15PM -0700, Herminio Hernandez, Jr. wrote:
> I have they in the past kept and architecture that was dropped as a release
> arch?

GNU/kFreeBSD was released as a technology preview for squeeze, kept as
TP in wheezy, then not made part of the jessie. I can't find it in
testing, but I see it in sid. So, it doesn't have any chance of being
part of a new release, as far as I understand, but it's still kept in
the archive.

Cascardo.


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Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Herminio Hernandez, Jr.]

No there is no lts for ppc only i386, amd64, and arm

https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/


On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Rick Thomas  wrote:

>
> Will there be an LTS (long-term-support) release for powerpc — best would
> be one based on Jessie?
>
>
> On Oct 31, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Mathieu Malaterre  wrote:
>
> > Anyone has a summary of the powerpc specific discussion ?
> >
> >
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > [...]
> > The only change from Jessie is the removal of powerpc as a release
> > architecture. We discussed this at length, and eventually took
> > the view that the least disservice to users of that port is to provide
> > reasonable notice of its discontinuation. We recognise and acknowledge
> > that discontinuing any port is unavoidably disruptive.
> >
> > The question of whether powerpc remains an architecture in the main
> archive
> > or moves to ports is one for FTP masters, not the release team.
> > [...]
> >
>
>

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Herminio Hernandez, Jr.]

I have they in the past kept and architecture that was dropped as a release
arch?

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Thadeu Lima de Souza Cascardo <
casca...@minaslivre.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 11:58:31PM +0100, Riccardo Mottola wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > On 31/10/2016 18:44, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> > > I am not a DD, or a DM, but I have certainly helped fix problems for
> > > powerpc, including in language runtimes for languages I don't use.
> > > Unfortunately it seems the upstream for most things don't care much for
> > > anything other than x86 and arm these days which makes it harder for
> > > other architectures to stay working.
> >
> > since I am "upstream" for certain software I assure that I do care.
> Actually
> > I am one of the persons who tested GNUstep stuff on PPC. I know of other
> > people happily using GNUstep on PPC. To do that, I need a usable
> operating
> > system of course... up to know it was debian. What could it be int he
> > future?
> > Perhaps not all upstream counts and we don't even need al possible
> packages
> > on PPC. But it is still possible today to have a ncie usable desktop
> setup.
> >
> > This Debian decision will make a dim future for PowerPC developers, not
> just
> > users: a chicken-egg problem.
> >
> > Riccardo
> >
>
> Well, as I understand, the release team decided there is not going to be
> a Debian Stretch release for PowerPC. We can still ask the ftp-masters
> and DSA to keep powerpc for testing and sid, and we will have to do our
> own release. It's harder without all the infrastructure and work the
> release team puts into a release. But it's still something we could do.
> In the worst case, we can try to publish some install media and use the
> debian-ports infrastructure that is going to use a rolling release,
> based on sid.
>
> The only powerpc I had until now was a Nintendo Wii, and though there
> are patches around that would make D-I usable, I was still playing with
> some other hacks before I could try to push for them in Debian proper,
> and it was not on my top priority. Too bad I couldn't foresee that if I
> got much more involved long before, I could say to the release team I
> was already doing porter work. But since I was not, it looked like any
> volunteering from my part would have made no difference at all.
>
> However, I just ordered and old iBook G4, and I hope I can at least test
> D-I images I could maybe help prepare. Would that help you keep testing
> your code on PPC?  :-)
>
> By the way, thanks a lot for helping all these years with the ppc port.
> I have watched from a distance, which was a mistake. Hope I can help
> with keeping up the port alive somehow.
>
> Best regards.
> Cascardo.
>

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Thadeu Lima de Souza Cascardo]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 11:58:31PM +0100, Riccardo Mottola wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> On 31/10/2016 18:44, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> > I am not a DD, or a DM, but I have certainly helped fix problems for
> > powerpc, including in language runtimes for languages I don't use.
> > Unfortunately it seems the upstream for most things don't care much for
> > anything other than x86 and arm these days which makes it harder for
> > other architectures to stay working.
> 
> since I am "upstream" for certain software I assure that I do care. Actually
> I am one of the persons who tested GNUstep stuff on PPC. I know of other
> people happily using GNUstep on PPC. To do that, I need a usable operating
> system of course... up to know it was debian. What could it be int he
> future?
> Perhaps not all upstream counts and we don't even need al possible packages
> on PPC. But it is still possible today to have a ncie usable desktop setup.
> 
> This Debian decision will make a dim future for PowerPC developers, not just
> users: a chicken-egg problem.
> 
> Riccardo
> 

Well, as I understand, the release team decided there is not going to be
a Debian Stretch release for PowerPC. We can still ask the ftp-masters
and DSA to keep powerpc for testing and sid, and we will have to do our
own release. It's harder without all the infrastructure and work the
release team puts into a release. But it's still something we could do.
In the worst case, we can try to publish some install media and use the
debian-ports infrastructure that is going to use a rolling release,
based on sid.

The only powerpc I had until now was a Nintendo Wii, and though there
are patches around that would make D-I usable, I was still playing with
some other hacks before I could try to push for them in Debian proper,
and it was not on my top priority. Too bad I couldn't foresee that if I
got much more involved long before, I could say to the release team I
was already doing porter work. But since I was not, it looked like any
volunteering from my part would have made no difference at all.

However, I just ordered and old iBook G4, and I hope I can at least test
D-I images I could maybe help prepare. Would that help you keep testing
your code on PPC?  :-)

By the way, thanks a lot for helping all these years with the ppc port.
I have watched from a distance, which was a mistake. Hope I can help
with keeping up the port alive somehow.

Best regards.
Cascardo.


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Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Rick Thomas]

Will there be an LTS (long-term-support) release for powerpc — best would be 
one based on Jessie?


On Oct 31, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Mathieu Malaterre  wrote:

> Anyone has a summary of the powerpc specific discussion ?
> 
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> [...]
> The only change from Jessie is the removal of powerpc as a release
> architecture. We discussed this at length, and eventually took
> the view that the least disservice to users of that port is to provide
> reasonable notice of its discontinuation. We recognise and acknowledge
> that discontinuing any port is unavoidably disruptive.
> 
> The question of whether powerpc remains an architecture in the main archive
> or moves to ports is one for FTP masters, not the release team.
> [...]
> 

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi,


On 31/10/2016 18:44, Lennart Sorensen wrote:

I am not a DD, or a DM, but I have certainly helped fix problems for
powerpc, including in language runtimes for languages I don't use.
Unfortunately it seems the upstream for most things don't care much for
anything other than x86 and arm these days which makes it harder for
other architectures to stay working.


since I am "upstream" for certain software I assure that I do care. 
Actually I am one of the persons who tested GNUstep stuff on PPC. I know 
of other people happily using GNUstep on PPC. To do that, I need a 
usable operating system of course... up to know it was debian. What 
could it be int he future?
Perhaps not all upstream counts and we don't even need al possible 
packages on PPC. But it is still possible today to have a ncie usable 
desktop setup.


This Debian decision will make a dim future for PowerPC developers, not 
just users: a chicken-egg problem.


Riccardo

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[luigi burdo]

i can understand about old powermac but what i dont understand is

why not made a standard ppc32 604/G3 base code compatible with all ppc systems 
64 too

leave is a really bad way.


yes SPE is another thing, but i think Adrian is working hard for this port .


Luigi




Da: Lennart Sorensen <lsore...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Inviato: lunedì 31 ottobre 2016 18.49
A: luigi burdo
Cc: PowerPC List Debian
Oggetto: Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 05:00:35PM +, luigi burdo wrote:
> and not only Riccardo,
> if we count amcc 44x , chrp, Xe and e500,e600 in addition to 32bit and 
> G5,Power5,6,7 and e5500,e6500 and P6T...
> read about this news is a really punch in the stomac for all user,dev and 
> factory who belive in BE ppc.

e500 doesn't count.  e500mc is the only e500* that can run powerpc
properly without FPU emulation.

But there are a lot of other ones.

Focusing on old powermacs is a useless distraction.  That's not what
powerpc is these days (and powermac was a drop in the bucket for the
powerpc market in the past too).

At least powerpc has multiple vendors that care if the tool chains work,
unlike sparc where there pretty much was just one vendor behind it and
they had their own OS to worry about.  Linux was not their primary
concern.

--
Len Sorensen

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Lennart Sorensen]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 05:00:35PM +, luigi burdo wrote:
> and not only Riccardo,
> if we count amcc 44x , chrp, Xe and e500,e600 in addition to 32bit and 
> G5,Power5,6,7 and e5500,e6500 and P6T...
> read about this news is a really punch in the stomac for all user,dev and 
> factory who belive in BE ppc.

e500 doesn't count.  e500mc is the only e500* that can run powerpc
properly without FPU emulation.

But there are a lot of other ones.

Focusing on old powermacs is a useless distraction.  That's not what
powerpc is these days (and powermac was a drop in the bucket for the
powerpc market in the past too).

At least powerpc has multiple vendors that care if the tool chains work,
unlike sparc where there pretty much was just one vendor behind it and
they had their own OS to worry about.  Linux was not their primary
concern.

-- 
Len Sorensen

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Lennart Sorensen]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 05:45:30PM +0100, Riccardo Mottola wrote:
> I think nobody ever got back.. we got dropped. Are we "dead" ? I don't feel
> dead bu apparently we just got declared so. All the nice G3 and G4
> hardware...

I am more concerned with the embedded systems still being produced,
and the nice IBM servers.

Some people think ppc64 is a useful option, but most of us are perfectly
happy with powerpc with a 64bit kernel.

Not that ppc64 appears to be getting to be a release architecture any
time soon.

I am not a DD, or a DM, but I have certainly helped fix problems for
powerpc, including in language runtimes for languages I don't use.
Unfortunately it seems the upstream for most things don't care much for
anything other than x86 and arm these days which makes it harder for
other architectures to stay working.

-- 
Len Sorensen

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[luigi burdo]

and not only Riccardo,
if we count amcc 44x , chrp, Xe and e500,e600 in addition to 32bit and 
G5,Power5,6,7 and e5500,e6500 and P6T...
read about this news is a really punch in the stomac for all user,dev and 
factory who belive in BE ppc.

luigi

Inviato da iPad

> Il giorno 31 ott 2016, alle ore 17:43, Riccardo Mottola 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>> Well as pointed out in the meeting, it does not seem any architecture
>> has ever done so.  No rule against it, but the standards for getting in
>> are higher than for staying in.
> 
> I think nobody ever got back.. we got dropped. Are we "dead" ? I don't feel 
> dead bu apparently we just got declared so. All the nice G3 and G4 hardware...
> 
> Riccardo

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi,

Lennart Sorensen wrote:

Well as pointed out in the meeting, it does not seem any architecture
has ever done so.  No rule against it, but the standards for getting in
are higher than for staying in.


I think nobody ever got back.. we got dropped. Are we "dead" ? I don't 
feel dead bu apparently we just got declared so. All the nice G3 and G4 
hardware...


Riccardo

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Herminio Hernandez Jr.]

I saw that after I asked the question. It just really stinks. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 31, 2016, at 9:18 AM, Lennart Sorensen  
> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 09:09:56AM -0700, Herminio Hernandez Jr.  wrote:
>> Is there even a chance for PowerPC to return as a release architecture for 
>> Debian 10 or is that just wishful thinking. 
> 
> Well as pointed out in the meeting, it does not seem any architecture
> has ever done so.  No rule against it, but the standards for getting in
> are higher than for staying in.
> 
> -- 
> Len Sorensen

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Lennart Sorensen]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 09:09:56AM -0700, Herminio Hernandez Jr.  wrote:
> Is there even a chance for PowerPC to return as a release architecture for 
> Debian 10 or is that just wishful thinking. 

Well as pointed out in the meeting, it does not seem any architecture
has ever done so.  No rule against it, but the standards for getting in
are higher than for staying in.

-- 
Len Sorensen

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Herminio Hernandez Jr.]

Is there even a chance for PowerPC to return as a release architecture for 
Debian 10 or is that just wishful thinking. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 31, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Lennart Sorensen  
> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 03:33:32PM +, luigi burdo wrote:
>> Really Bad news for all us who have a ppc64 hardware, server or emb too.
> 
> No kidding.  My impression from just being on the mailing list was
> that anyone that tried to step up was told they weren't qualified for
> some reason.
> 
> -- 
> Len Sorensen
> 

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Lennart Sorensen]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 03:33:32PM +, luigi burdo wrote:
> Really Bad news for all us who have a ppc64 hardware, server or emb too.

No kidding.  My impression from just being on the mailing list was
that anyone that tried to step up was told they weren't qualified for
some reason.

-- 
Len Sorensen

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[luigi burdo]

Really Bad news for all us who have a ppc64 hardware, server or emb too.

Luigi



Da: mathieu.malate...@gmail.com  per conto di 
Mathieu Malaterre 
Inviato: lunedì 31 ottobre 2016 14.42
A: PowerPC List Debian
Oggetto: Fwd: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

Anyone has a summary of the powerpc specific discussion ?


-- Forwarded message --
[...]
The only change from Jessie is the removal of powerpc as a release
architecture. We discussed this at length, and eventually took
the view that the least disservice to users of that port is to provide
reasonable notice of its discontinuation. We recognise and acknowledge
that discontinuing any port is unavoidably disruptive.

The question of whether powerpc remains an architecture in the main archive
or moves to ports is one for FTP masters, not the release team.
[...]

Re: Release Architectures for Debian 9 'Stretch'

[Jonathan Wiltshire]

On 2016-10-31 13:31, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:

The only change from Jessie is the removal of powerpc as a release
architecture.


...and adding of mips64el. Oops.


--
Jonathan Wiltshire  j...@debian.org
Debian Developer http://people.debian.org/~jmw

4096R: 0xD3524C51 / 0A55 B7C5 1223 3942 86EC  74C3 5394 479D D352 4C51

 i have six years of solaris sysadmin experience, from
8->10. i am well qualified to say it is made from bonghits
layered on top of bonghits