Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On July 6, 2019 9:10:57 PM UTC, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: >On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 08:00:58PM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote: >> But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset >is >> outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a >listmaster. > >I think there are two separate aspects here. One is the "mindset" >you're >discussing here, which I'm positive is shared by most in the project. >Another is explicitly pushing back against the DPL, whose >constitutional >roles include "Lead discussions amongst Developers", when he asks >gently >to please stop a discussion. > >I'm sure that was not your intention, but to bystanders that gives the >feeling that you're undermining the DPL's authority, and gets in the >way >of the DPL doing his constitutional job in this specific area. So, >personally, I'm torn here: I agree with your open discussion mindset, >but the main issue here was (as I understand it at least) of a >different >nature. I think if you reread the rest of 5.1.9, I think the listmaster response was correct. Far from undermining the DPL's constitutional role, I think it was an appropriate response to what was at least close to overstepping that role. Scott K
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
* Stefano Zacchiroli: " Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course" (Sat, 6 Jul 2019 23:10:57 +0200): > I'm sure that was not your intention, but to bystanders that gives the > feeling that you're undermining the DPL's authority, and gets in the way > of the DPL doing his constitutional job in this specific area. So, > personally, I'm torn here: I agree with your open discussion mindset, > but the main issue here was (as I understand it at least) of a different > nature. If you are sure it was not the listmasters intention, why then speculate about supposed feelings of bystanders? I just can nothing more than say, that I never had the slightest impression of the listmaster "undermining the DPL's authority". Quite contrary to that impression I would expect the listmaster to act completely independent from the DPL. -- Mathias Behrle ✧ Debian Developer PGP/GnuPG key availabable from any keyserver, ID: 0xD6D09BE48405BBF6 AC29 7E5C 46B9 D0B6 1C71 7681 D6D0 9BE4 8405 BBF6 pgp_4K2LrN6pv.pgp Description: Digitale Signatur von OpenPGP
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
* Alexander Wirt: " Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course" (Sat, 6 Jul 2019 20:00:58 +0200): > On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > > > On 15451 March 1977, Alexander Wirt wrote: > > > [...] > > > Thats possible, but imho not a reason to kill the thread. > > > > It is a very good reason to do so, and its sad that our listmasters > > aren't more active in shutting down threads that repeat and repeat and > > repeat all the same things ever again, every other month. > > It would save so much energy that could be used so much more useful. > > > > Same as getting rid of the "all lists are open" thing, something that > > was nice in the past, but has definitely lost its value long ago. > I can not do more than disagree. If you don't like a thread, killfile it. > But using censorship, banning, blocking threads you/someone don't like, just > for the reason *you* don't find them useful is in my eyes just wrong and is > some kind of censorship and should not be done in an open project like > debian. > > But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset is > outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a listmaster. Others have already answered, I have the feeling I have to step in at this point, too: I think you are doing exactly your job as listmaster to not influence discussions, but merely control the correct functionality with respect to respect and list guidelines. Thanks, Mathias -- Mathias Behrle ✧ Debian Developer PGP/GnuPG key availabable from any keyserver, ID: 0xD6D09BE48405BBF6 AC29 7E5C 46B9 D0B6 1C71 7681 D6D0 9BE4 8405 BBF6 pgpC8xlQaSiLW.pgp Description: Digitale Signatur von OpenPGP
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 08:00:58PM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote: > But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset is > outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a listmaster. I think there are two separate aspects here. One is the "mindset" you're discussing here, which I'm positive is shared by most in the project. Another is explicitly pushing back against the DPL, whose constitutional roles include "Lead discussions amongst Developers", when he asks gently to please stop a discussion. I'm sure that was not your intention, but to bystanders that gives the feeling that you're undermining the DPL's authority, and gets in the way of the DPL doing his constitutional job in this specific area. So, personally, I'm torn here: I agree with your open discussion mindset, but the main issue here was (as I understand it at least) of a different nature. No need to threaten resignation about this, I'm sure your work as listmaster is still very much appreciated in the project (and certainly it is appreciated by me). Cheers -- Stefano Zacchiroli . z...@upsilon.cc . upsilon.cc/zack . . o . . . o . o Computer Science Professor . CTO Software Heritage . . . . . o . . . o o Former Debian Project Leader & OSI Board Director . . . o o o . . . o . « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club » signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
Alexander Wirt - 06.07.19, 20:00: > On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > > On 15451 March 1977, Alexander Wirt wrote: > > > > The tone is absolutely civilized. > > > > And yet, the cost to people who have to do this education again > > > > and > > > > again is really high. > > > > > > Thats possible, but imho not a reason to kill the thread. > > > > It is a very good reason to do so, and its sad that our listmasters > > aren't more active in shutting down threads that repeat and repeat > > and repeat all the same things ever again, every other month. > > It would save so much energy that could be used so much more useful. > > > > Same as getting rid of the "all lists are open" thing, something > > that > > was nice in the past, but has definitely lost its value long ago. > > I can not do more than disagree. If you don't like a thread, killfile > it. But using censorship, banning, blocking threads you/someone don't > like, just for the reason *you* don't find them useful is in my eyes > just wrong and is some kind of censorship and should not be done in > an open project like debian. > > But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset is > outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a > listmaster. I certainly concur with your mindset here. -- Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 06:32:10PM +, Scott Kitterman wrote: > It seems to me that if one is open to diversity of opinion, then there's > no need for someone to feel obligated to educate wrong thinkers. That's > only necessary if there's only one true answer, so anyone with a different > opinion is in need of reeducation. Hah :) Especially the last sentence is worth quoting. :) -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ According to recent spams, "all my email accounts are owned ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ by a hacker". So what's the problem? ⠈⠳⣄
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On Sat, 06 Jul 2019, Alexander Wirt wrote: > On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > > > On 15451 March 1977, Alexander Wirt wrote: > > > > > > The tone is absolutely civilized. > > > > And yet, the cost to people who have to do this education again and > > > > again is really high. > > > Thats possible, but imho not a reason to kill the thread. > > > > It is a very good reason to do so, and its sad that our listmasters > > aren't more active in shutting down threads that repeat and repeat and > > repeat all the same things ever again, every other month. > > It would save so much energy that could be used so much more useful. > > > > Same as getting rid of the "all lists are open" thing, something that > > was nice in the past, but has definitely lost its value long ago. > I can not do more than disagree. If you don't like a thread, killfile it. > But using censorship, banning, blocking threads you/someone don't like, just > for the reason *you* don't find them useful is in my eyes just wrong and is > some kind of censorship and should not be done in an open project like > debian. > > But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset is > outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a listmaster. jftr, I completly support and welcome the work of the publicity and diversity team here and I am proud the we changed our logo to show that we welcome *everyone*. Alex signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On July 6, 2019 6:00:58 PM UTC, Alexander Wirt wrote: >On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > >> On 15451 March 1977, Alexander Wirt wrote: >> >> > > The tone is absolutely civilized. >> > > And yet, the cost to people who have to do this education again >and >> > > again is really high. >> > Thats possible, but imho not a reason to kill the thread. >> >> It is a very good reason to do so, and its sad that our listmasters >> aren't more active in shutting down threads that repeat and repeat >and >> repeat all the same things ever again, every other month. >> It would save so much energy that could be used so much more useful. >> >> Same as getting rid of the "all lists are open" thing, something that >> was nice in the past, but has definitely lost its value long ago. >I can not do more than disagree. If you don't like a thread, killfile >it. >But using censorship, banning, blocking threads you/someone don't like, >just >for the reason *you* don't find them useful is in my eyes just wrong >and is >some kind of censorship and should not be done in an open project like >debian. > >But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset is >outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a >listmaster. > >Alex - Debian Listmaster If such a mindset as that is outdated, then I am too. Please keep up the good work. It seems to me that if one is open to diversity of opinion, then there's no need for someone to feel obligated to educate wrong thinkers. That's only necessary if there's only one true answer, so anyone with a different opinion is in need of reeducation. Scott K
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On Tue, 02 Jul 2019, Joerg Jaspert wrote: > On 15451 March 1977, Alexander Wirt wrote: > > > > The tone is absolutely civilized. > > > And yet, the cost to people who have to do this education again and > > > again is really high. > > Thats possible, but imho not a reason to kill the thread. > > It is a very good reason to do so, and its sad that our listmasters > aren't more active in shutting down threads that repeat and repeat and > repeat all the same things ever again, every other month. > It would save so much energy that could be used so much more useful. > > Same as getting rid of the "all lists are open" thing, something that > was nice in the past, but has definitely lost its value long ago. I can not do more than disagree. If you don't like a thread, killfile it. But using censorship, banning, blocking threads you/someone don't like, just for the reason *you* don't find them useful is in my eyes just wrong and is some kind of censorship and should not be done in an open project like debian. But that is my personal mindset I am coming from. If such a mindset is outdated nowadays and not wanted anymore I offer to resign as a listmaster. Alex - Debian Listmaster signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Pride Month Discussion has Run its Course
On 15451 March 1977, Alexander Wirt wrote: The tone is absolutely civilized. And yet, the cost to people who have to do this education again and again is really high. Thats possible, but imho not a reason to kill the thread. It is a very good reason to do so, and its sad that our listmasters aren't more active in shutting down threads that repeat and repeat and repeat all the same things ever again, every other month. It would save so much energy that could be used so much more useful. Same as getting rid of the "all lists are open" thing, something that was nice in the past, but has definitely lost its value long ago. -- bye, Joerg
