Re: FW: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux
On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 7:46 PM Philip Hands wrote: > Of course, Grml isn't a direct output of the Debian project, so perhaps > people might take issue with having that as the "Debian Recovery > Option", but it is closely based on Debian, and includes a couple of > ways of installing vanilla Debian, having booted into Grml. Debian used to publish a "recovery" variant of Debian Live, but that was dropped due to lack of maintenance at one point. I note there are several Debian derivatives producing rescue/recovery live media (Grml, rescatux, Finnix come to mind), I wonder if any of them would be interested in forming a new Debian rescue/recovery team to publish console and GUI recovery variants of Debian Live images. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
Re: FW: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux
Mark Pearson writes: >>> 3. Rescue partition >>> >>> Laptop manufacturers usually don't ship with physical media anymore. >>> Instead, the laptops have a rescue partition on them for >>> re-installing/resetting the machine. >>> >>> As far as I know both installers we currently use in Debian are fine >>> from installing from a rescue partition, we just need a nice way to set >>> that up when initially performing an oem style setup from our >>> installation media. (again, not a huge technical problem, but probably a >>> bit more work than #2). > Actually I have an ongoing exercise to improve the recovery side of > things with a meeting later this afternoon. You could do a lot worse than providing a copy of Grml on the disk: https://grml.org/ Of course, Grml isn't a direct output of the Debian project, so perhaps people might take issue with having that as the "Debian Recovery Option", but it is closely based on Debian, and includes a couple of ways of installing vanilla Debian, having booted into Grml. Then again, Grml inherits anyi problems with unsupported hardware that Debian has, so may need things fixed before it's suitable, depending on the current issues on any particular hardware. Cheers, Phil. [ Typed on my X230 :-) ] -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg,GERMANY signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux
On 2020-06-05 12:12, Mark Pearson wrote: > You will be able to buy a Linux system > (albeit not Debian) soon. That's fine with me! If a notebook computer works with any Linux, I'm confident, that I/someone can put Debian on it!
Re: Debian hardware support and enablement for newer devices (was ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux)
On Fri, Jun 05, 2020 at 12:26:12PM +0200, Ansgar wrote: > > > As a project, how can we improve the current entry level to new > > > companies wanting support for their devices? > > > > Is the backports archive not sufficient for this? I see it doesn't > > contain mesa backports at this point and probably other hardware > > enablement, but that could be fixed. > > I wouldn't recommend enabling backports by default for pre-installed > systems as using backports is something a bit fiddly (temporarily > uninstallable packages, sometimes extra pinning to pull in additional > packages or manual intervention is needed, ...). Not only that, but without proper security support it would be irresponsible to ship a kernel from backports by default. If we're going to encourage hardware vendors to ship packages from backports pre-installed, we need to ensure that it gets the same level of security support as stable. That means support from a team that his visibility into embargoed issues and can publish DSAs to debian-security-announce on the day of a vulnerability disclosure. We can't wait for a package to enter testing and then be backported, and we can't treat backports as a second-class citizen from an infrastructure perspective. noah
Re: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux
Hi Martin On 6/5/2020 11:03 AM, Martin wrote: On 2020-06-03 13:39, Mark Pearson wrote: I'm the linux technical lead at Lenovo for the PC team and I'd *love* to improve the Debian experience on Lenovo platforms. Very welcome! Just to add some praise here: I'm using X220 at home and X220 at work, one with Debian testing, one with Debian stable. Both work very well. X220 is still the perfect computer for me. If one ever breaks, I'll try to get a used, second hand X220, again. Now a critical remark: Last time, when I had to buy a Lenovo notebook computer for a colleague in DE, it was not possible to select one without MS Windows. That option was only available for university students. Why do we have to pay the Gates tax? That is definitely getting fixed. (though I'm intrigued about the university student deal - that's not something I had heard of) You may have seen the announcement a couple of days ago about the RHEL/Ubuntu full certification of workstation platforms. There will be other bits of news coming out soon too. You will be able to buy a Linux system (albeit not Debian) soon. As a note (it's usually the next question) - I don't know the pricing details but I'm hoping it will be announced in the not too distant future. Mark
Re: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux
Hi Marc On 6/5/2020 9:51 AM, Marc Haber wrote: On Fri, Jun 05, 2020 at 09:13:39AM -0400, Mark Pearson wrote: On 6/5/2020 5:03 AM, Pirate Praveen wrote: While we're asking for rainbow colored unicorns here, I'd love the Lenovo support organiation to be a little less bitchy when one admits using Linux, at least for clear hardware faults like broken mouse buttons etc¹, and can I please have the old keyboard style back as an option? And please keep in mind that Linux nerds enjoy tinkering around with their older hardware, so it would be great to have disk slots that conform to the standard and memory that is not soldered in. I have been holding back buying a new Thinkpad for a while because I hate to lose the flexibility that the older series used to have, and I have bought my last three Thinkpads without a support package because Lenovo won't help me anyway because I happen to use the wrong OS. Rainbow colored unicorns are my favourite (though I don't recommend trying to get a jar of unicorn snot through airport security as a gift for your kids after a business trip...) I've been having conversations with the support team recently as they will be supporting Linux calls. It should address some of your concerns there. I suspect there will be a learning curve. HW design - I don't get much say in that but I can pass on feedback. Greetings Marc, writing this on the X260, with three T520 and one X121e in daily use ¹ it really sucks to be required to have a disk with a never-used Windows installation sitting on the shelf just to make the support tech happy
Re: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux
Hi Paul On 6/5/2020 9:28 AM, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 1:20 PM Mark Pearson wrote: I haven't so far got as far as thinking about the backporting stage so I probably need more education there. My goal so far has been to get fixes from upstream into sid so that Debian users can pick them up from there. It sounds like you are saying that the Linux kernel release cycle (every 2-3 months) plus the time it takes them to get into Debian is too slow for Lenovo. While Debian sid is waiting for the next Linux kernel release, it does get updated with Linux kernel stable releases, which get fixes that are backported from the next Linux kernel release. I guess that this might work for some of those fixes, but it would not work for new drivers or new features etc. https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/stable-kernel-rules.html It's probably one of the more challenging parts (along with getting the support upstream in the first place). It's something that is hard to solve in the other distro's too - RHEL for instance also has issues with the audio on the X1C7/X1C8 as it was upstream too late for their 8.2 release (we've addressed it there with a Lenovo copr repository until it's accepted into RHEL). The balance between maintaining stability and cutting edge hardware is hard to solve. That's where doing a Debian pre-load would be challenging (which is really where this conversation started). If support for a platform isn't there until 6 to 8 months after it's shipped (or more) then really it's not worth doing a preload (note - I'm not saying it's not worth supporting the platform - that is still important0. Fedora have this somewhat solved by being on the latest of everything, Ubuntu solve it by having their oem image model. My naive aim starting to work with Debian was to get patches/fixes into sid and then figure out the rest from there - I tend to approach one hurdle at a time because my brain is too small to cope with more than that :) At least once it was in sid I could tell Debian users there was a way to get the fix on their platform (albeit with the stability risks - most users I have talked to seem OK with that). I'm wide open to suggestions on how to improve that or help/contribute towards improving that. Mark
Re: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux
On 2020-06-03 13:39, Mark Pearson wrote: > I'm the linux technical lead at Lenovo for the PC team and I'd *love* to > improve the Debian experience on Lenovo platforms. Very welcome! Just to add some praise here: I'm using X220 at home and X220 at work, one with Debian testing, one with Debian stable. Both work very well. X220 is still the perfect computer for me. If one ever breaks, I'll try to get a used, second hand X220, again. Now a critical remark: Last time, when I had to buy a Lenovo notebook computer for a colleague in DE, it was not possible to select one without MS Windows. That option was only available for university students. Why do we have to pay the Gates tax? Cheers
Re: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux
On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 9:13 am, Mark Pearson wrote: Hi Pirate On 6/5/2020 5:03 AM, Pirate Praveen wrote: Hi Mark, I also use a Thinkpad (X240) with Debian unstable, it mostly work except for some issues with touchpad and suspend (touchpad stops working after resuming from suspend, but I work around it using an external mouse). OK - I'll see if I can find out about that. We previously had a similar issue on the X1C7 and that was fixed by a touchpad firmware update. I don't have a X240 myself but I'll see what I can find. Thanks! As someone who maintains a package that moves too fast for debian (gitlab which does not provide security updates to a release after 3 months) and part of the team that maintains https://fasttrack.debian.net, I am happy to help you here. That's really interesting - thanks for pointing it out. I can see that being really useful - though I have to get my head around a bit more how/when it is used. We have offcial backports for packages that are already in testing (which will be in next stable release), but packages like gitlab which cannot be supported in the lifetime of a normal stable release cannot be in testing and consequently cannot be in official backports. So we created a new repository for packages like gitlab which changes too fast and connot be in stable or backports. It is still an unofficial project and based on how it gets acceptance in the community, it could become an official project later (backports was also started as an unofficial project initially). I also mentor a lot of new contributors to Debian, so feel free to ask me about any Debian issues and processes. I'm not an expert in drivers and hardware, but I can definitely help with backporting part. We could use fasttrack to make things available sooner to stable users if regular backports are not possible. Thank you - that is very much appreciated. I haven't so far got as far as thinking about the backporting stage so I probably need more education there. My goal so far has been to get fixes from upstream into sid so that Debian users can pick them up from there. But being able to backport them from there would be brilliant. $ rmadison linux-image-amd64 [older releases skipped] linux-image-amd64 | 4.19+105+deb10u4| stable | amd64 linux-image-amd64 | 5.5.17-1~bpo10+1| buster-backports | amd64 linux-image-amd64 | 5.6.14-1| testing | amd64 linux-image-amd64 | 5.6.14-1| unstable | amd64 linux-image-amd64 | 5.7~rc5-1~exp1 | experimental | amd64 As you can see buster-backports already has linux kernel 5.5, even though stable is still at 4.19. But as Ansgar pointed out here[1], it is still not very smooth experience and is fine for a server app like gitlab, but we need more polish for this to be usable to not very technical users or find other ways like he mentioned, add as extra package to normal update. But if your expectation is for people who can pick up from sid, I think picking from backports would be easier. [1]https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2020/06/msg00019.html
Re: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux
On Fri, Jun 05, 2020 at 09:13:39AM -0400, Mark Pearson wrote: > On 6/5/2020 5:03 AM, Pirate Praveen wrote: > > I also use a Thinkpad (X240) with Debian unstable, it mostly work except > > for some issues with touchpad and suspend (touchpad stops working after > > resuming from suspend, but I work around it using an external mouse). > > > OK - I'll see if I can find out about that. We previously had a similar > issue on the X1C7 and that was fixed by a touchpad firmware update. I don't > have a X240 myself but I'll see what I can find. Generally, the [TX][245]40 series was not a very good machine regarding Linux, like the older T61[p] line. Things have become a lot better again since then, my X260 works like a charm, the T450 and T460 I had from my last customers were ok as well. Generally, T- and X-Thinkpads are a very good choice for Linux, very popular and widely recommended inside the Community. While we're asking for rainbow colored unicorns here, I'd love the Lenovo support organiation to be a little less bitchy when one admits using Linux, at least for clear hardware faults like broken mouse buttons etc¹, and can I please have the old keyboard style back as an option? And please keep in mind that Linux nerds enjoy tinkering around with their older hardware, so it would be great to have disk slots that conform to the standard and memory that is not soldered in. I have been holding back buying a new Thinkpad for a while because I hate to lose the flexibility that the older series used to have, and I have bought my last three Thinkpads without a support package because Lenovo won't help me anyway because I happen to use the wrong OS. Greetings Marc, writing this on the X260, with three T520 and one X121e in daily use ¹ it really sucks to be required to have a disk with a never-used Windows installation sitting on the shelf just to make the support tech happy -- - Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany| lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
Re: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux
On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 1:20 PM Mark Pearson wrote: > I haven't so far got as far as thinking about the backporting stage so I > probably need more education there. My goal so far has been to get fixes > from upstream into sid so that Debian users can pick them up from there. It sounds like you are saying that the Linux kernel release cycle (every 2-3 months) plus the time it takes them to get into Debian is too slow for Lenovo. While Debian sid is waiting for the next Linux kernel release, it does get updated with Linux kernel stable releases, which get fixes that are backported from the next Linux kernel release. I guess that this might work for some of those fixes, but it would not work for new drivers or new features etc. https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/stable-kernel-rules.html -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
Re: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux
Hi Pirate On 6/5/2020 5:03 AM, Pirate Praveen wrote: Hi Mark, I also use a Thinkpad (X240) with Debian unstable, it mostly work except for some issues with touchpad and suspend (touchpad stops working after resuming from suspend, but I work around it using an external mouse). OK - I'll see if I can find out about that. We previously had a similar issue on the X1C7 and that was fixed by a touchpad firmware update. I don't have a X240 myself but I'll see what I can find. As someone who maintains a package that moves too fast for debian (gitlab which does not provide security updates to a release after 3 months) and part of the team that maintains https://fasttrack.debian.net, I am happy to help you here. That's really interesting - thanks for pointing it out. I can see that being really useful - though I have to get my head around a bit more how/when it is used. I also mentor a lot of new contributors to Debian, so feel free to ask me about any Debian issues and processes. I'm not an expert in drivers and hardware, but I can definitely help with backporting part. We could use fasttrack to make things available sooner to stable users if regular backports are not possible. Thank you - that is very much appreciated. I haven't so far got as far as thinking about the backporting stage so I probably need more education there. My goal so far has been to get fixes from upstream into sid so that Debian users can pick them up from there. But being able to backport them from there would be brilliant.
Re: Debian hardware support and enablement for newer devices (was ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux)
On Thu, 2020-06-04 at 02:31 +, Paul Wise wrote: > > As a project, how can we improve the current entry level to new > > companies wanting support for their devices? > > Is the backports archive not sufficient for this? I see it doesn't > contain mesa backports at this point and probably other hardware > enablement, but that could be fixed. I wouldn't recommend enabling backports by default for pre-installed systems as using backports is something a bit fiddly (temporarily uninstallable packages, sometimes extra pinning to pull in additional packages or manual intervention is needed, ...). Ubuntu seems to offer newer kernel and graphics drivers as separate packages in the main archive instead, see [1]. I remember support for new hardware in stable releases to be a general problem, especially short before a new release when the kernel in stable already ~2 years out. Currently I no longer administrate desktop systems with stable, but when I did so in the past it was sometimes a problem to fully support recent hardware. Ansgar [1]: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/LTSEnablementStack
RE: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux
On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:39 pm, Mark Pearson wrote: From my point of view what I've been trying to do is to get more involved so I can contribute/backport fixes directly. I get good insight into what issues impact our platforms and when fixes land upstream. It seems the best way to make contribute and make a difference. Unfortunately I've still got a *lot* of learning to do and it's a really slow process because the loop between offering a fix, getting it reviewed to find out what you did wrong and contributing the update is crazy slow (for example I have kernel MR 240 open for four weeks for an OLED brightness issue that a lot of users think is important). My expectation is that as I make fewer mistakes and earn some trust that will help - but until that point (which I'm guessing will take years ) I have limited handles that I can pull on to make things happen. My *impression* is there is limited desire to accelerate fixes for Lenovo platforms - I suspect mostly because people are just plenty busy with the things they care about instead and I understand that. Hi Mark, I also use a Thinkpad (X240) with Debian unstable, it mostly work except for some issues with touchpad and suspend (touchpad stops working after resuming from suspend, but I work around it using an external mouse). As someone who maintains a package that moves too fast for debian (gitlab which does not provide security updates to a release after 3 months) and part of the team that maintains https://fasttrack.debian.net, I am happy to help you here. I also mentor a lot of new contributors to Debian, so feel free to ask me about any Debian issues and processes. I'm not an expert in drivers and hardware, but I can definitely help with backporting part. We could use fasttrack to make things available sooner to stable users if regular backports are not possible. A shout out for Hector Martinez who has been helping me a whole bunch. Without his help I likely would have given up and wouldn't even be reading the threads on this forum. If there are more people like Hector (particularly in kernel, audio and graphics) let me know! This email took me a long time to write - I'm *very* aware that I'm new to this and don't want to cause offence. Please take all of the above with the recognition that my viewpoint into Debian is still limited and if I've said anything dumb/wrong/offensive let me know so I can learn what I'm missing. Mark
Re: Re: FW: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux
Hi, Thank you for your mail. In short term, Lenovo cannot provide Debian pre-installed laptops since there are some blockers for it. But they want to give better experience with Linux for their laptop users, including Debian. So, we can continue to talk with them, will try to find the root cause of those problems and solve it. (Maybe it's better to have cross-distro talk about its laptop issue, too). Can we do that? Yes, of course improve it :) -- Hideki Yamane
