Re: debian image questions

[Paul Wise]

On Thu, 2023-08-03 at 08:41 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:

> What is the "modern" way to install an operating system on hardware

There are some potentially more modern future options:

Plug in the device to a USB port, visit the installer web page, click
the button to install the OS, done. This can be done using WebUSB:

https://grapheneos.org/install/web

Go to the app store of your existing OS, select the Debian app, run it
to try Debian out, click the option to reboot into it natively, choose
to boot into the existing app or via a new disk partition. This can be
done using preinstalled images, VMs and modifying UEFI settings to
offer Debian at boot time, using an image on an existing partition,
or by copying that image to a partition.

Both of these have a better user experience than having to find
external temporary storage for the installer, when there is
already existing internal storage that could be used for this.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: debian image questions

[Gunnar Wolf]

Bill Miller dijo [Sun, Aug 06, 2023 at 08:42:21AM -0400]:
> Just like that;
> 
> When Apple makes a new OS or IOS I do not need to download anything. I go
> to update, it will ask me if i am sure i want to install a new OS. it warns
> me that all my stuff will be lost if i change my OS. It will then ask me
> for my password. Once i put in my password, up comes a box reading "wait"
> and in about 20 to 90 minutes later the device resets and comes back on and
> the new OS is on, up and, running. No downloading, no cd, no usb drive. I
> dont need to know anything about tech or computers to go from one old OS to
> another new OS.

Besides what others have answered to your question, let me point something out
here: I had a couple of Apple computers about 15 years ago. I remember that when
we bought one of them, the system was installed, but we got a set of CDs with
the update to the new version. It had just been released a week or so ago, and
Apple was _so much better_ than Windows because the newer OS release was
included for free!

But yes, you had to manually start the install process. And I don't remember
it, but as you say, it will probably wipe your data, or something might not work
afterwards.

Debian basically *invented* the worryless, over-the-network updates. My current
desktop computer was originally installed in 2005, when I started working at my
university. I have upgraded the OS since then. I have even moved the data from
one computer to the next. Debian achieves what MacOS and Windows (and many Linux
are incapable of dreaming: We can ask the system to update itself _and keep
working_. We don't have to worry. It basically just works™.

Re: debian image questions

[tomas]

On Sun, Aug 06, 2023 at 08:42:21AM -0400, Bill Miller wrote:
> Just like that;
> 
> When Apple makes a new OS or IOS I do not need to download anything. I go
> to update, it will ask me if i am sure i want to install a new OS. it warns
> me that all my stuff will be lost if i change my OS [...]

Now try this: start with a computer with Windows on it. Go to update
and try to install an Apple OS. Damn, didn't work, did it? I think 
you can't even achieve that with the help of an USB stick, because
Apple forbids you to install their OS on hardware that isn't theirs.

What you are describing works for Debian too: going from an already
installed version of Debian to the next (we call those just "versions"
of the OS, because our marketing department isn't as pretentious as
Apple's). No CDROMs, USB sticks or other external storage media needed.
Just "From The Internet" (TM).

One very nice feature of Debian is that you usually get to keep your
"stuff" after the OS upgrade: for me, it never got lost, and I've made
quite a few of those. So I'll stick to Debian, thankyouverymuch, if
Apple is going to wipe "my stuff" on every upgrade ;-P

Making backups is still a good idea, though.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: debian image questions

[Nihat Kalfazade]

Dear Bill,

If this isn't trolling, you've actually got your answer hidden in your
description.

> I go to update 

Installing a new OS is not updating the existing.

Regards,

Nihat.


On Sun, 2023-08-06 at 08:42 -0400, Bill Miller wrote:
> Just like that;
> 
> When Apple makes a new OS or IOS I do not need to download anything.
> I go to update, it will ask me if i am sure i want to install
> a new OS. it warns me that all my stuff will be lost if i change my
> OS. It will then ask me for my password. Once i put in my password,
> up comes a box reading "wait" and in about 20 to 90 minutes later the
> device resets and comes back on and the new OS is on, up and,
> running. No downloading, no cd, no usb drive. I dont need to know
> anything about tech or computers to go from one old OS to another new
> OS.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 11:35 PM Marc Haber
>  wrote:
> > Hello Bill,
> > 
> > thanks for your Interest in Debian and also for your ramblings,
> > which I
> > don't quote for brevity.
> > 
> > On Wed, Aug 02, 2023 at 08:40:51PM -0400, Bill Miller wrote:
> > > I really want to try Debian but i dont live in the 90's CDs and
> > > USB
> > > drives times. why cant i just install Debian from a digital
> > > cloud? i
> > > dont understand why i need physical hardware to run digital
> > > software?
> > 
> > Kindly educate us. What is the "modern" way to install an operating
> > system on hardware if using an USB stick or some other boot medium
> > is unwanted 1990ies technology?
> > 
> > Please give detailed instructions how installing an operating
> > system
> > from "a digital cloud" would work?
> > 
> > Best regards
> > Marc Haber
> > 

Re: debian image questions

[Pirate Praveen]

On ഞാ, ഓഗ 6 2023 at 08:42:21 രാവിലെ -04:00:00 
-04:00:00, Bill Miller  wrote:

Just like that;

When Apple makes a new OS or IOS I do not need to download anything. 
I go to update, it will ask me if i am sure i want to install a new 
OS. it warns me that all my stuff will be lost if i change my OS. It 
will then ask me for my password. Once i put in my password, up comes 
a box reading "wait" and in about 20 to 90 minutes later the device 
resets and comes back on and the new OS is on, up and, running. No 
downloading, no cd, no usb drive. I dont need to know anything about 
tech or computers to go from one old OS to another new OS.


Many companies provide you Debian pre installed laptopns 
https://www.debian.org/distrib/pre-installed just like how you buy a 
macbook from apple store, you can order one from them.


In case of Windows and Mac, someone else installed it for you and there 
are people who will do that for you in case of Debian too.


We provide an option to directly install Debian on Windows 
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Loader


You don't need any CD or USB drive for this option, you can download 
the exe file, run it directly in Windows.



On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 11:35 PM Marc Haber 
> wrote:

Hello Bill,

 thanks for your Interest in Debian and also for your ramblings, 
which I

 don't quote for brevity.

 On Wed, Aug 02, 2023 at 08:40:51PM -0400, Bill Miller wrote:
 > I really want to try Debian but i dont live in the 90's CDs and 
USB
 > drives times. why cant i just install Debian from a digital 
cloud? i
 > dont understand why i need physical hardware to run digital 
software?


 Kindly educate us. What is the "modern" way to install an operating
 system on hardware if using an USB stick or some other boot medium
 is unwanted 1990ies technology?

 Please give detailed instructions how installing an operating system
 from "a digital cloud" would work?

 Best regards
 Marc Haber

 --
 
-
 Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse 
im Header
 Leimen, Germany|  lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 
1600402
 Nordisch by Nature |  How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 
1600421

Re: debian image questions

[Ravi Dwivedi]

On 06/08/23 18:12, Bill Miller wrote:

Just like that;

When Apple makes a new OS or IOS I do not need to download anything. I go
to update, it will ask me if i am sure i want to install a new OS. it warns
me that all my stuff will be lost if i change my OS. It will then ask me
for my password. Once i put in my password, up comes a box reading "wait"
and in about 20 to 90 minutes later the device resets and comes back on and
the new OS is on, up and, running. No downloading, no cd, no usb drive. I
dont need to know anything about tech or computers to go from one old OS to
another new OS.


What you are talking about is updating the already existing OS, not 
installing a new one. In debian too, you just need to click a button 
(run two commands) to update to a newer version, for example to switch 
to debian 12 from debian 11 does not require installing it from scratch 
from USB or CD.


If debian was shipped preinstalled in your laptop (there are some!), 
then you never had to use a USB stick or CD to install debian, just like 
macOS, as macOS was preinstalled in your device.





On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 11:35 PM Marc Haber 
wrote:


Hello Bill,

thanks for your Interest in Debian and also for your ramblings, which I
don't quote for brevity.

On Wed, Aug 02, 2023 at 08:40:51PM -0400, Bill Miller wrote:

I really want to try Debian but i dont live in the 90's CDs and USB
drives times. why cant i just install Debian from a digital cloud? i
dont understand why i need physical hardware to run digital software?


Kindly educate us. What is the "modern" way to install an operating
system on hardware if using an USB stick or some other boot medium
is unwanted 1990ies technology?

Please give detailed instructions how installing an operating system
from "a digital cloud" would work?

Best regards
Marc Haber

--

-
Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header
Leimen, Germany|  lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
Nordisch by Nature |  How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421






--
Ravi Dwivedi
https://ravidwivedi.in


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Re: debian image questions

[Marc Haber]

On Sun, Aug 06, 2023 at 08:42:21AM -0400, Bill Miller wrote:
> When Apple makes a new OS or IOS I do not need to download anything. I go
> to update, it will ask me if i am sure i want to install a new OS.

Updating an installed OS with a new version of the same OS is something
completely different from installing an entirely NEW OS on a system that
has a different OS or none at all.

Greetings
Marc

-- 
-
Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header
Leimen, Germany|  lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
Nordisch by Nature |  How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

Re: debian image questions

[Bill Miller]

Just like that;

When Apple makes a new OS or IOS I do not need to download anything. I go
to update, it will ask me if i am sure i want to install a new OS. it warns
me that all my stuff will be lost if i change my OS. It will then ask me
for my password. Once i put in my password, up comes a box reading "wait"
and in about 20 to 90 minutes later the device resets and comes back on and
the new OS is on, up and, running. No downloading, no cd, no usb drive. I
dont need to know anything about tech or computers to go from one old OS to
another new OS.


On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 11:35 PM Marc Haber 
wrote:

> Hello Bill,
>
> thanks for your Interest in Debian and also for your ramblings, which I
> don't quote for brevity.
>
> On Wed, Aug 02, 2023 at 08:40:51PM -0400, Bill Miller wrote:
> > I really want to try Debian but i dont live in the 90's CDs and USB
> > drives times. why cant i just install Debian from a digital cloud? i
> > dont understand why i need physical hardware to run digital software?
>
> Kindly educate us. What is the "modern" way to install an operating
> system on hardware if using an USB stick or some other boot medium
> is unwanted 1990ies technology?
>
> Please give detailed instructions how installing an operating system
> from "a digital cloud" would work?
>
> Best regards
> Marc Haber
>
> --
>
> -
> Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header
> Leimen, Germany|  lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
> Nordisch by Nature |  How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421
>
>

Re: debian image questions

[Satvik Sinha]

Hi Bill , the point your friend is trying to make is absolutely
meaningless. There is no operating system in today's time which does not
require it's installation image to be directly downloaded from cloud and
then flashed onto usb drive for installation . If you are talking about
Microsoft windows media creation tool which it uses for windows 10 and 11
and can be used to upgrade windows 8.1 to higher version please note that
If you are talking about winds reset option in windows 10 where microsoft
give you option to reset your system using windows 10 image freshly
downloaded from cloud . what basically that image does it download that iso
filed in temporary location ,extracts it and then windows reset menu after
downloading triggers it with relevant setting which you choose and that's
how your windows 10 get reinstalled ,during reset some services of your
windows go into shutdown mode in order to be replaced. USB media
installation is not an old style, microsoft still recommends installing
windows fresh via USB installation media. Games you are able to play on
other systems, depending upon if they are portable and their files do not
require verifying installation from the registry or need to have dependency
installed in order to play.  That's what your friend did not tell you when
he was telling you about how games are plug and play.. Operating systems on
the other end are wholly different thing, they are the base platform
through which your hardware runs and the very fac that you are able to
write this mail to here. It's not necessary to use CD for installing and
operating system you can use rufus to create bootable image and that file
when you trigger install via installation menu gets copied to your hard
drive, so that it remains on your system throughout your journey.and you
can boot it and use it daily for your work without loosing data or having
to plug in your os over and over again in laptop port. USB are storage
limited os files require direct communication with something called
hardware in order to use your network adapter and all, portable games do
not require direct hardware interaction. All they use is your something
called operating system's libraries to run. SO i don't know wether your
friend does not have adequate knowledge or he is trying to make fun of you
in front of public but the question you asked baseless . Linux like debian
give you more option to customise your os  by allowing you to select
packages you want to install , it downloads those packages from internet
and installs it on your computer hard drive. If you are asking about
installing debain from cloud here are 2 thing that can happen. 1st worst
case scenerio is that your winows os files gets replaced if debians
installs it files from cloud while your windows is running and your windows
10 goes corrupt or become unstable and stiops working why? because The
libraries which windows required for windows to run has been replaced or
modified by linux install manager and is missing. boom , you just destroyed
your own prefectly working installation of windows. 2nd scenrio is that you
your are installing another os on top of your windows and all of a sudden
that os loses communication to internet as that other os replaced it's
network drivers while was also downloading os files also loses connection
to internet , congratulations your both os are corrupt and not functional
anymore and that is why we use USB installation media be it installing
alongside or installing over other operating system

Regards
a windows 10 and Debain user

On Thu, 3 Aug 2023 at 06:48, Bill Miller  wrote:

> Is there a version of Debian that does not require 1990's technology?
> because i would really really want that Debian.I would download that
> in a second. However most of Debian still works off "image"? Still? Is
> there a new digital addition of Debian that I can download and install
> without using "image"? I am looking for Debian  that I can download
> and then install and not need "image" like I am trying to use a live
> action telnet on another OS. Why do I need to use "image" and burn the
> software onto a CD? A round silver disc? I have heard of that, and see
> that technology on tv, but I have never actually had one in my life.
> Do computers even come with CD drives anymore? The other "image" is a
> USB driver. I had to google what that was and its Roku stick but
> empty, right and you store files on it? A friend told me USB drives
> was helpful back in the late 1990's because computers couldnt hold
> large games like we have now so people would put games on USB sticks
> and would plug them in. install the game and play? then when they
> wanted to play another game they would uninstall the game they was
> playing, insert the USB stick and install the different game and play
> it??? well computers are not like that now, you can put many large
> games on a computer, its 2023. But Debian can not brake the hump in
> todays times?? maybe i am missing

Re: debian image questions

[Timo Röhling]

* ghostbar  [2023-08-03 09:26]:
If you want to run it like an application in your current operating 
system, you can use a virtual machine like VirtualBox[2].


The Windows Subsystem for Linux can install Debian, too:
https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/Microsoft/Windows/SubsystemForLinux


Cheers
Timo

--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀   ╭╮
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁   │ Timo Röhling   │
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀   │ 9B03 EBB9 8300 DF97 C2B1  23BF CC8C 6BDD 1403 F4CA │
⠈⠳⣄   ╰╯


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Re: debian image questions

[ghostbar]

On 8/2/23 21:40, Bill Miller wrote:

I really want to try Debian but i dont live in the 90's CDs and USB
drives times. why cant i just install Debian from a digital cloud? i
dont understand why i need physical hardware to run digital software?


Hi Bill,

This is a good question for debian-user@l.d.o instead of 
debian-project@, maybe that's a hint about why you can't find what 
you're looking for.


You can install Debian in the cloud, of course. Actually, all cloud 
providers ship Debian. Is your cloud provider missing Debian?


Or maybe you're mistaking an operating system for an application?

Debian is not a game nor an app, is an operating system[1]. So you need 
either virtualized (most cloud-providers) or physical hardware to run 
any operating system.


If you want to run it like an application in your current operating 
system, you can use a virtual machine like VirtualBox[2].


[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system
[2]: https://www.virtualbox.org/

Re: debian image questions

[Marc Haber]

Hello Bill,

thanks for your Interest in Debian and also for your ramblings, which I
don't quote for brevity.

On Wed, Aug 02, 2023 at 08:40:51PM -0400, Bill Miller wrote:
> I really want to try Debian but i dont live in the 90's CDs and USB
> drives times. why cant i just install Debian from a digital cloud? i
> dont understand why i need physical hardware to run digital software?

Kindly educate us. What is the "modern" way to install an operating
system on hardware if using an USB stick or some other boot medium
is unwanted 1990ies technology?

Please give detailed instructions how installing an operating system
from "a digital cloud" would work?

Best regards
Marc Haber

-- 
-
Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header
Leimen, Germany|  lose things."Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
Nordisch by Nature |  How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421