Re: pycharm package in debian

[kamaraju kusumanchi]

On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 12:26 AM, Ghislain Vaillant  wrote:
>
> May I ask what would be the benefit for pycharm to be in Debian, when we
> already have the official Jetbrains Toolbox App or the snap package as means
> to install and update the application?

>From an end user point of view, the benefit of having pycharm in
Debian is good as having any other package - to be able to use the
tools in Debian ecosystem, not worry about conflicts with other
packages, get support from Debian mailing lists etc., etc.,

-- 
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi | http://raju.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Blog

Re: pycharm package in debian

[Ben Finney]

Andrey Rahmatullin  writes:

> On Sun, Oct 01, 2017 at 06:38:03PM +0200, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> > PS: Is there maybe something broken with the quoting function of
> > your MUA? I cannot differentiate between text written by you and
> > quoted text. There is no '> ' or whatever...
> That's how text parts of text+html mails often look like.

It is a recent breakage on GMail: the text body is broken (quoted
text is indistinguishable from non-quoted text). As I don't use GMail I
don't know what the author can do to correct this.

Those using GMail should engage with their support team to get this
fixed for all users. Until then, use a different client for composing
messages.

-- 
 \  “As soon as we abandon our own reason, and are content to rely |
  `\   upon authority, there is no end to our troubles.” —Bertrand |
_o__)Russell, _Unpopular Essays_, 1950 |
Ben Finney

Re: pycharm package in debian

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Sun, Oct 01, 2017 at 06:38:03PM +0200, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> PS: Is there maybe something broken with the quoting function of
> your MUA? I cannot differentiate between text written by you and
> quoted text. There is no '> ' or whatever...
That's how text parts of text+html mails often look like.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: pycharm package in debian

[W. Martin Borgert]

On 2017-10-01 23:16, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 01, 2017 at 04:52:55PM +0200, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> > I usually start to use software, when it arrives in Debian.
> > Or I package it. If there is some snap or other third party
> > package, I'm unsure how to work with it:
> >
> > How to install?
> I expand the tarball to ~
...

This is my point: I'm too lazy and too old to find out for every
random application how to install, uninstall, upgrade it, find
out which version, if any, is installed on my system, whether
the software complies with the DFSG, etc.

> Surely you don't expect the Debian maintainers to fix bugs you could
> encounter in PyCharm?

I expect Debian maintainers to forward bugs to upstream, if they
assume, that the bug is not introduced by them. (For some highly
complex software, like Gnome or KDE, this is not practical, but
for many packages this should work.)

Cheers

snap in debian

[Brian May]

Ghislain Vaillant  writes:

> May I ask what would be the benefit for pycharm to be in Debian, when we 
> already have the official Jetbrains Toolbox App or the snap package as 
> means to install and update the application?

For what its worth, last time I tried snap on Debian stable I found it
didn't work reliably.

I asked in Stack Overflow, and managed to backport the version of snap
from unstable. Where I encountered exactly the same problems as before:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46127373/snap-packages-on-debian-stable

So possibly at least one of my problems is a Kernel issue in Debian
stable (at least my current theory), however this seems to indicate to
me that snap is still somewhat bleeding edge and cannot be relied on.
-- 
Brian May 

Re: pycharm package in debian

[Ghislain Vaillant]

On 01/10/17 20:33, Thomas Goirand wrote:

On 10/01/2017 09:47 AM, Ghislain Vaillant wrote:

Besides, rrom an end-user perspective, I can't picture anyone preferring
the (potentially lagging) packaged version over more official means like
the Jetbrains app or the snap package, both of which have been good at
keeping up with updates.


I definitively prefer a Debian package in main, even if it is "lagging
behind" as you said. For such a thing as an IDE, I expect it to be
mature enough so that the older version is enough for the everyday use.
And I would feel safer than using any random snap package. Who knows
what security issue is in there and what security policy and procedure
(if any) is in place.


You guessed it there are none. Confinement is disabled for the pycharm 
snap, so it behaves like any other application installed via a deb package.



Don't get me wrong, I understand the rationales from a DFSG perspective.
I am just questioning whether users of this particular piece of software
would particularly care.


I at least would care. And would very much welcome anyone doing the work
of packaging and maintaining this kind of software.


Don't get me wrong, I would welcome such effort too. I just wanted to 
emphasize the implication and level of commitment that such effort would 
require. We have been there with eclipse and atom, the former is (still) 
lagging quite badly, and the latter was stopped at the initial packaging 
stage.


Ghis

Re: pycharm package in debian

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Sun, Oct 01, 2017 at 04:52:55PM +0200, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> I usually start to use software, when it arrives in Debian.
> Or I package it. If there is some snap or other third party
> package, I'm unsure how to work with it:
> 
> How to install? 
I expand the tarball to ~

> How to uninstall? 
I would remove  ~/pycharm

> How to report bugs and to whom?
Help / Report Problem opens the upstream JIRA.
Surely you don't expect the Debian maintainers to fix bugs you could
encounter in PyCharm?

> How to download the source code and rebuild it? Is it
> DFSG-free anyway? (Does it already build reproducible?)
Those are irrelevant to me as I use the paid version, so...

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: pycharm package in debian

[W. Martin Borgert]

On 2017-10-01 17:16, Ghislain Vaillant wrote:
> Most likely a lot. We are talking about a large application with probably
> quite a few dependencies in Java / Kotlin.
>
> Why not? Because failure to commit to regular updates would feed the
> current narrative that Debian ships old and loosely maintained software.
> Especially when there are other means of installing the software which are
> officially documented upstream.
>
> I have been there with packages I personally maintain (spyder for
> instance), and I am raising these concerns out of my own experience and
> feedback from existing users. Feel free to disregard.

Those are absolutely valid concers. I'm aware of many outdated
packages, including some maintained by me. I leave the challenge
to those, who like to package it. Still, if PyCharm were in
Debian, I would at least try it out some day.

Cheers

PS: Is there maybe something broken with the quoting function of
your MUA? I cannot differentiate between text written by you and
quoted text. There is no '> ' or whatever...

Re: pycharm package in debian

[Ghislain Vaillant]

Le 1 oct. 2017 15:53, "W. Martin Borgert"  a écrit :

On 2017-10-01 08:26, Ghislain Vaillant wrote:
> May I ask what would be the benefit for pycharm to be in Debian, when we
> already have the official Jetbrains Toolbox App or the snap package as
means
> to install and update the application?

I usually start to use software, when it arrives in Debian.
Or I package it. If there is some snap or other third party
package, I'm unsure how to work with it:


You mean the average user cannot use Google? The installation instructions
on Jetbrain's website sounds pretty clear to me, so is installing a snap
package.


How to install? How to uninstall? How to report bugs and to
whom? How to download the source code and rebuild it? Is it
DFSG-free anyway? (Does it already build reproducible?)


You and I care about these things as Debian contributors. The average Joe
however usually does not.


There is nothing wrong with having snap or other packages
available, but I'm not their target audience. But I'm an Emacs
- and vi! - user anyway :~)


Whatever works for you. Actually, vim can be turned into a fine Python
editor.


Another question is, how much work it will be and whether it is
worth the effort, esp. permanent maintenance. But if somebody
wants to do it, why not?


Most likely a lot. We are talking about a large application with probably
quite a few dependencies in Java / Kotlin.

Why not? Because failure to commit to regular updates would feed the
current narrative that Debian ships old and loosely maintained software.
Especially when there are other means of installing the software which are
officially documented upstream.

I have been there with packages I personally maintain (spyder for
instance), and I am raising these concerns out of my own experience and
feedback from existing users. Feel free to disregard.

Ghis

Re: pycharm package in debian

[W. Martin Borgert]

On 2017-10-01 08:26, Ghislain Vaillant wrote:
> May I ask what would be the benefit for pycharm to be in Debian, when we
> already have the official Jetbrains Toolbox App or the snap package as means
> to install and update the application?

I usually start to use software, when it arrives in Debian.
Or I package it. If there is some snap or other third party
package, I'm unsure how to work with it:

How to install? How to uninstall? How to report bugs and to
whom? How to download the source code and rebuild it? Is it
DFSG-free anyway? (Does it already build reproducible?)

There is nothing wrong with having snap or other packages
available, but I'm not their target audience. But I'm an Emacs
- and vi! - user anyway :~)

Another question is, how much work it will be and whether it is
worth the effort, esp. permanent maintenance. But if somebody
wants to do it, why not?

Cheers

Re: pycharm package in debian

[Ben Finney]

Ghislain Vaillant  writes:

> All 3 means of installation (Jetbrain's app, snap and potentially apt)
> are one-liners for the end-user. So, ease-of-use is hardly a
> compelling argument.

That's not the argument I made. I am satying that there are people who
are not in the set of people who will install Snap or Flatpak or etc.,
because it's too much hassle to know whether it is free software or
whether it will work correctly with the rest of the system.

Getting the work as free software in Debian opens up the package for
installation by those people. I count myself among them.

I say this to counter the idea that there is a set of “users of this
software package” that is not affected by whether the software is in
Debian. That is false, and indeed getting the package maintained in
Debian is a way to *increase* the potential members of that set.

So, I don't find the “would users of this software package care about it
being in Debian” query not compelling, because it makes a false
assumption about the relationship.

-- 
 \“If we ruin the Earth, there is no place else to go. This is |
  `\not a disposable world, and we are not yet able to re-engineer |
_o__)  other planets.” —Carl Sagan, _Cosmos_, 1980 |
Ben Finney

Re: pycharm package in debian

[Ghislain Vaillant]

Le 1 oct. 2017 09:49, "Ben Finney"  a écrit :

Ghislain Vaillant  writes:

> Don't get me wrong, I understand the rationales from a DFSG
> perspective. I am just questioning whether users of this particular
> piece of software would particularly care.

The same could be asked of many user-facing packages in Debian. Your
question, though, makes an incorrect assumption: that “users of this
particular piece of software” is a group whose membership is unaffected
by having the package in Debian.

On the contrary. Take me as a counter-example. I am not a user of this
particular piece of software, because I have little interest in judging
for myself the hundreds of user-facing applications on my system.

If it were in Debian I can then take all the assurance that brings about
freedom and maintenance, and I may indeed consider using this particular
piece of software where otherwise I would not.

So, one important reason to package a work in Debian is to *increase*
the set of people who can easily install and use it.


All 3 means of installation (Jetbrain's app, snap and potentially apt) are
one-liners for the end-user. So, ease-of-use is hardly a compelling
argument.

And I don't question your initial assessment about other applications in
the archive. Hence myself mentioning eclipse earlier, as a similar package
which used to be actively maintained until the effort died out.

I am just wondering whether an effort to package pycharm would not reach
the same outcome, assuming it passes the initial import phase. The Atom IDE
for instance never did.

Ghis

Re: pycharm package in debian

[Ben Finney]

Ghislain Vaillant  writes:

> Don't get me wrong, I understand the rationales from a DFSG
> perspective. I am just questioning whether users of this particular
> piece of software would particularly care.

The same could be asked of many user-facing packages in Debian. Your
question, though, makes an incorrect assumption: that “users of this
particular piece of software” is a group whose membership is unaffected
by having the package in Debian.

On the contrary. Take me as a counter-example. I am not a user of this
particular piece of software, because I have little interest in judging
for myself the hundreds of user-facing applications on my system.

If it were in Debian I can then take all the assurance that brings about
freedom and maintenance, and I may indeed consider using this particular
piece of software where otherwise I would not.

So, one important reason to package a work in Debian is to *increase*
the set of people who can easily install and use it.

-- 
 \  “Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?” “Uh, I think so |
  `\  Brain, but this time, you wear the tutu.” —_Pinky and The Brain_ |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney

Re: pycharm package in debian

[Ghislain Vaillant]

On 01/10/17 08:38, Paul Wise wrote:

On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Ghislain Vaillant wrote:


May I ask what would be the benefit for pycharm to be in Debian, when we
already have the official Jetbrains Toolbox App or the snap package as means
to install and update the application?


I've never heard of the first of those, definitely wouldn't use the
snap package and probably not the Jetbrains thing, unless either of
them were built entirely from packages in Debian main, which I am
assuming they aren't ever going to be.


Sure, though I foresee the sheer amount of packaging work to get this 
sort of app in the archive to be quite a challenge, both from an initial 
packaging and on-going maintenance effort. Look at what happened with 
eclipse for instance.


Besides, rrom an end-user perspective, I can't picture anyone preferring 
the (potentially lagging) packaged version over more official means like 
the Jetbrains app or the snap package, both of which have been good at 
keeping up with updates.


Don't get me wrong, I understand the rationales from a DFSG perspective. 
I am just questioning whether users of this particular piece of software 
would particularly care.


Ghis

Re: pycharm package in debian

[Paul Wise]

On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Ghislain Vaillant wrote:

> May I ask what would be the benefit for pycharm to be in Debian, when we
> already have the official Jetbrains Toolbox App or the snap package as means
> to install and update the application?

I've never heard of the first of those, definitely wouldn't use the
snap package and probably not the Jetbrains thing, unless either of
them were built entirely from packages in Debian main, which I am
assuming they aren't ever going to be.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: pycharm package in debian

[Ghislain Vaillant]

On 01/10/17 02:36, Paul Wise wrote:

On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 10:35 PM, Julien Puydt wrote:

Le 30/09/2017 à 14:22, kamaraju kusumanchi a écrit :

Are there any plans to make a debian package of pycharm that is part
of official debian? I used their community edition on windows 7 and it
is awesome.


Maybe you should look at WNPP to see if someone filed a RFP or ITP, and
if not, submit a RFP yourself?


Looks like someone attempted it but gave up, so if you would like to
do it that would be great.

https://bugs.debian.org/742394
https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers


May I ask what would be the benefit for pycharm to be in Debian, when we 
already have the official Jetbrains Toolbox App or the snap package as 
means to install and update the application?


Ghis