Question for Ted Walther: Delegation
Hi Ted, I'm a little confused on your interpretation of delegation. Consider the following two examples in which you have appointed tasks to others: 1. In a thread from yesterday in which people were seeking out your opinions, you appear to delegate someone else (who had not expressed either interest or availability) to do the necessary background research for you: If you think there is more information in those messages besides the fact that Ubuntu isn't harming Debian, and Debian isn't harming Ubuntu, then I hereby delegate you to summarize those mails, in your own words. I'm ready to hear what you have to say. 2. In your platform from the 2005 election, you appointed 12 people to conduct in-depth research on gender issues and write a report within a three-month deadline. Again none of these people had expressed interest or availablility, and in fact it was made clear by at least some of them that they were not interested in doing this research for you. So: My question is, how do you distinguish delegate from command (or its lesser cousin request politely)? If you were DPL and you delegated tasks in this fashion, would you expect them to be done as a matter of course? (I realise example #2 was taken from your 2005 platform, but if your stance on delegation has changed since then, I'd also be interested to hear how). Ben. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question for Ted Walther: Delegation
Hi Ted, Thanks for your answers. Another question regarding delegation: What sorts of tasks would you plan to delegate? Would you delegate important decisions, or would you be more interested in delegating gruntwork? I ask because the two examples I posted before seems to be of the gruntwork type (do time-consuming research and fact-finding, and then present the results to you as a summary or report). Perhaps these examples are not representative of your leadership style, but they happen to be the ones that I have noticed. Thanks - Ben. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Re: debian-women obscurity, was: Clarification about krooger's platform
You haven't said anything sexist about it, except that it has a clear purpose. I have, IMO. I consider discrimination on the basis of sex to be sexism. i.e., you favour the law of the jungle. Which, may I say, has a fine history of maintaining artificial imbalances caused by past injustices. b. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: communication obscurity [was: debian-women obscurity]
[...] Can't blame people for not seeing cool stuff if it's stuck away in an obscure backwater mostly unannounced. Where was there blame? [...] After krooger wondered about adequate transparency, there was http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2005/03/msg00032.html Well: that was my mail, but I'm buggered if I can work out who I'm supposed to be blaming (or for what). b. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Clarification about krooger's platform
I'm glad you mentioned this. An informal group working quietly and effectively seems to lack accountability and public transparency. Rightio. So your problems are (i) secrecy, and (ii) lack of accountability. As for secrecy, I find your objections interesting. The debian-women project has been making great efforts to actively improve transparency of processes and access to relevant documentation throughout debian. Immediate examples that come to mind include their detailed articles on the NM process, the new mentoring programme that they are developing and a growing collection of entry-level articles on packaging and bug squashing. As for their own processes, they use a public mailing list, a public IRC channel, post regular summaries of off-list activity and have regular online meetings whose minutes are publicly posted. Their goals and guidelines are publicly available on their website. Doesn't entirely smack of secrecy to me. And as for accountability: who do you want them made accountable to? Ah, the DPL, which would be.. well, you. Mmmm. Huggles, Ben. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Clarification about krooger's platform
would any of you have answered a Request For Comments or Call for Volunteers from krooger, honestly? Which, if you are correct, makes it even less appropriate for krooger to use them in his DPL platform. /me bravely returns to the topic.. b. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Second Call for votes: General resolution: Sarge Release Schedule in view of GR 2004-003
Considering the circumstances that brought this gr to the table, and the many options I've been presented with in it for quietly weaseling out of the consequences of the previous hasty attempt at changing things, I do have to wonder more than I normally might about the irregularity of posting a 'how to vote' card to -announce right as the polls are closing... Hmm, I read it as a simple whoops with the mailer, not a deliberate post to -announce. What is it again? Never attribute to malice what can be easily explained by stupidity. (Sorry Andreas, no offense intended -- I too have had problems with my reply button in the past. :) ) b. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What your ballot should look like if you're in favor of releasing sarge
I see. Is that what the Constitution says? If you don't like who won, then just keep proposing GRs, claiming that not enough people voted last time? When you lose a vote, raise as big a stink as possible and have more votes? You really think this is a good procedure? FWIW, they _are_ two different GRs. You can view them as (1) let's remove the possible ambiguity in the SC, (2) now it's crystal clear that significant changes are required, let's decide when/how we'll implement them. Only one of the six options in the new GR is actually asking to revert the old one. b. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Analysis of the ballot options
There are essentially two positions here, which appear to be best represented by options 3 and 6. In summary, these positions are: --- Debian is about releasing software --- Debian is about releasing free software --- Surely this terse (and not exactly unbiased) summary has the same problems as the previous SC, i.e., the unclear definition of software? (Substitute unclear with not well-agreed-upon if it makes you happier.) The assumption here is that our users are not best served by free software. I question why anybody who holds that opinion would have anything to do with Debian, or free software in general. I think that our users are best served by having free software, and releasing with anything less is doing them a major disservice, especially if we foist non-free software on them for two or three years until the next release. You speak as if it were a choice between releasing free software/data versus non-free alternatives. Of course the real problem is that in many cases there simply are no current alternatives at all (e.g., the significant amounts of GFDL documentation). This does rather muddy things up -- documentation for instance is an important component of a system for users who don't know it all already (or who haven't been using GNU/Linux for so long that they know all the magic tricks to try to work it out for themselves). Anyway, I'm basically claiming that your summary is a rather broad over-simplification (which of course happens to suit your own proposal). b. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Ineffectual DPL?
If you agree with this as I do, then a simple I agree will suffice, sent in public reply. Then, start doing real work. If you don't agree, then by all means, waste your's and everyone else's time, by actually attempting to discuss and disect this email. But those who really care about the project will ignore the ensuing discussion. If you agree with me, please tell everyone. If you don't agree with me, you're a bad person if you tell everyone. And if you read the posts from people who don't agree with me, you're a bad person too. Goodness gracious. b. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Ineffectual DPL?
If you agree with this as I do, then a simple I agree will suffice, sent in public reply. Then, start doing real work. If you don't agree, then by all means, waste your's and everyone else's time, by actually attempting to discuss and disect this email. But those who really care about the project will ignore the ensuing discussion. If you agree with me, please tell everyone. If you don't agree with me, you're a bad person if you tell everyone. And if you read the posts from people who don't agree with me, you're a bad person too. Goodness gracious. b.
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
We can't be sure whether this orange-haired person likes to eat babies or not. He probably does, lock him up. If I have to make a guess then I do, but I don't pretend it's anything more than a (possibly educated) guess. If you want to promote some action based on your guess - go ahead. But don't try to pretend it's based on anything but a guess. See how far you get. There are actions less severe than locking someone up, and there are certainly approaches we can try that are appropriate when based on educated guesses. Hell, this is done in the real world all the time - outside the context of pure mathematics there is precious little that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. b. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
We can't be sure whether this orange-haired person likes to eat babies or not. He probably does, lock him up. If I have to make a guess then I do, but I don't pretend it's anything more than a (possibly educated) guess. If you want to promote some action based on your guess - go ahead. But don't try to pretend it's based on anything but a guess. See how far you get. There are actions less severe than locking someone up, and there are certainly approaches we can try that are appropriate when based on educated guesses. Hell, this is done in the real world all the time - outside the context of pure mathematics there is precious little that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. b.
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
I don't think she's flaky or mentally unstable. I think she approached a concrete group of people by assuming they would fit a stereotype she had in mind, and that's a bad thing to do. Please. Her comments are centred around two premises: 1) That debian contains bullying or aggressive elements. She is *not* inventing this, she did *not* come into the discussion with this as a stereotype that she's trying to fit debian into. It's quite clearly observable. 2) That women in general are less suited to such environments than men. This claim is not specific to debian, and so there is a wide body of data to draw on. This has certainly been studied formally in the context of high school education. Moreover, this is something she has had a chance to observe personally in wider contexts - AIUI she has an undergraduate degree in engineering and a PhD in physics, both male-dominated areas. She's not pulling any of this out of the air. b. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
There is a chronic systemic harrassment in Debian, but I have not seen women get more of it. I know I've said this some number of times already, but I'll say it again in just four lines so it's that much harder to miss. The problem Helen refers to in the most part is not *overt* sexism. The problem is *subliminal/covert* sexism, where everyone is treated the same way but women in general (through social training, upbringing, whatever) are less well adapted to such treatment. Ben. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
We should change the environment because it is bad, not because it's bad to women. The question to which Helen was initially responding was not why should we change the environment?. It was why are there so few women in debian?. If there are grander reasons for changing the environment then that's wonderful, but I honestly don't see what's wrong with someone discussing it in the context of the question that was actually asked. Ben. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
There is a chronic systemic harrassment in Debian, but I have not seen women get more of it. I know I've said this some number of times already, but I'll say it again in just four lines so it's that much harder to miss. The problem Helen refers to in the most part is not *overt* sexism. The problem is *subliminal/covert* sexism, where everyone is treated the same way but women in general (through social training, upbringing, whatever) are less well adapted to such treatment. Ben.
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
We should change the environment because it is bad, not because it's bad to women. The question to which Helen was initially responding was not why should we change the environment?. It was why are there so few women in debian?. If there are grander reasons for changing the environment then that's wonderful, but I honestly don't see what's wrong with someone discussing it in the context of the question that was actually asked. Ben.
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Helen said women are likely to be not so confident that their skills will allow them to survive in an environment like debian, compared to their male counterparts. And then, her explanation of what that environment amounted to, was that it was bullying and condescending to women. Not bullying and condescending to women. Just bullying and condescending. Note that it doesn't take very many people of this type to create an impression. Now what's weird is that she says she has never noticed overt sexism in my dealings with debian, Indeed, which is why she talks mainly about covert sexism, i.e., people being treated the way men are taught to interact with men, and assuming that women will react the same way. (Of course people are individuals and gender is not a one-and-only determinant of behaviour, but I'd say the trends [and social training] are certainly there.) and has never had a hostile experience with debian. ... Moreover, she criticizes Debian without *ever*, she says, having had any experience. I'd wager she's observed it though. It's like saying, I have a fear of being mugged, yet I've never been mugged myself. Perfectly rational IMO. So she is assuming that men, because they are men, will be condescending and unkind, though she's never actually *seen* any such thing on Debian: sexist. Ah yes, if you just replace experienced with seen (and emphasise it, no less), it becomes a lot more convenient for you to argue against. Unfortunately this is not at all what she said. b. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Helen said women are likely to be not so confident that their skills will allow them to survive in an environment like debian, compared to their male counterparts. And then, her explanation of what that environment amounted to, was that it was bullying and condescending to women. Not bullying and condescending to women. Just bullying and condescending. Note that it doesn't take very many people of this type to create an impression. Now what's weird is that she says she has never noticed overt sexism in my dealings with debian, Indeed, which is why she talks mainly about covert sexism, i.e., people being treated the way men are taught to interact with men, and assuming that women will react the same way. (Of course people are individuals and gender is not a one-and-only determinant of behaviour, but I'd say the trends [and social training] are certainly there.) and has never had a hostile experience with debian. ... Moreover, she criticizes Debian without *ever*, she says, having had any experience. I'd wager she's observed it though. It's like saying, I have a fear of being mugged, yet I've never been mugged myself. Perfectly rational IMO. So she is assuming that men, because they are men, will be condescending and unkind, though she's never actually *seen* any such thing on Debian: sexist. Ah yes, if you just replace experienced with seen (and emphasise it, no less), it becomes a lot more convenient for you to argue against. Unfortunately this is not at all what she said. b.
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Ah right, I'll chime in. But on balance I think even that was pretty mild. I very seldom see overt hostility towards women in Debian. I think I have seen more towards gays, and we appear to have more gay and bi male developers than women of any orientation. It's possible that it's all relative (tm). Given the amount of overt anti-gay rhetoric that we still hear today, debian appeared to me as having very little hostility towards lesbians/gays/etc. Certainly it was a much less hostile environment than the place where I was living at the time [1]. Hell, even in Australia where same-sex couples can get immigration visas (with a large amount of red tape), we still have our prime minister traipsing about arguing against same-sex marriage because it does nothing to support the survival of the species [2]. If only the world were ruled by the Dutch. :) Anyway, I have never though of debian as hostile towards gays/etc at all, certainly compared with the world at large. Is it that we have subcultures within Debian, and the gay/bi male one has reached a critical mass that enables new ones to be assimilated into our group more easily? FWIW, I wasn't aware of such a subculture when I joined back in 2001, and even now I'm finding it hard to think of more than a couple of other lesbian/gay/bi DDs. Though of course you don't wear your sexuality in the From: line the way you wear your gender, but still - I wouldn't really have said there was a lesbian/gay/bi subculture in debian as such. Maybe I'm just not paying attention. :) I do think you have it right when you observe that there is seldom overt hostility towards women in debian. I think the issues are more subtle than that, which can in fact make the problems harder to address. As an example, I'd say that debian, as with several open source projects, does have a bit of a bullying culture (certainly not pushed by everyone, or even by a majority, but certainly not invisible either). And for whatever reason, I think males often thrive better in that culture (look at debates regarding single-sex vs co-education schools). This may or may not deter some people from participating - this is all just wild speculation. Anyway, just thoughts on the issue. Like everyone else I have no good solutions. Ben. [1] http://www.sodomylaws.org/usa/oklahoma/oklahoma.htm [2] God bless Howard, the dear thing -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
The problem is you are a flake.
$ dict flake
...
4. a person who behaves strangely; a flaky[2] person.
[Colloq.]
[PJC]
...
2: a person with an unusual or odd personality [syn:
{eccentric}, {eccentric person}, {oddball}, {geek}]
...
Your yourself say you notice a lot of people exhibiting similar
behaviour, so it doesn't appear particularly strange, unusual or odd to
me.
(No that wasn't an attempt to put you down or be
unkind. It's simply the most accurate word I can think of.
Colloquialisms are frequently both unkind and inaccurately applied, and
regardless of your intentions, your use of flake comes across as no
exception. Saying you're a flake, but that's not meant unkindly is
like saying I'm not homophobic, I just don't want gays teaching my
children.
Vague fears of persecution are a sign of mental
instability which can't be fixed by an operating system free or otherwise.
Vague fears?? I don't think it would take either of us very long to
find examples of rude, dismissal and condescending behaviour in the BTS
or mailing lists.
Claiming someone who hesitates to jump into a social environment that is
sometimes friendly but sometimes hostile to be mentally unstable is not
really the most eloquent way to make your point. At the very least, it
certainly helps make these vague fears more realistic.
Ben.
--
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Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Honestly out of all the flame wars we've had can you think of any where being a yucky girl was an issue? I suspect you've missed the point somewhat. AIUI she does not fear that people will bully her because she's female. She simply fears that people will bully her (as they bully others, male or female), and her claim is that males (by social training or otherwise) are better suited to such environments than females are. Consider for instance the form of democracy in which the person who shouts loudest wins. This is one of several forms of democracy that actively operate within debian (others being the person who writes the code wins, the package maintainer(s) win, and person receiving the most votes wins). I want to claim that this first form of democracy is a particularly male thing, others may disagree. A little trepidation in a new environment is normal. When it becomes disabling then it is indeed mental illness. Disabling?? I expect it's more like she occasionally considers become more significantly involved in development, but for reasons above decides her efforts are probably better spent elsewhere. At least that's how I read it. I don't expect she's lying awake at nights trying to summon up the courage. I expect she's simply trying to add some personal insight into the issue that started this thread, i.e., why aren't there more female DDs. And to me this seems a perfectly good reason for why people might choose to expend their energies elsewhere. Certainly within the realm of sanity, whatever that might be. b. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
I don't honestly give a rats ass about what sexuality a person is, but I get seriously pissed off when the 'We're a minority, we're special' card gets pulled. Whilst I see what you're saying, I fail to see how my post could possibly be read as pulling the minority card. The quote I gave was simply an example of an I mean this nicely, but here's an insult phrase that came easily to mind. Beyond its use in a phrase of this type, the sexuality issue had nothing whatsoever to do with my post. And my other post on the sexuality issue was about persecution regarding sexuality because that was the _precise_ issue that Branden raised. And my conclusion was actually that debian does not visibly persecute on this basis. So I'm not entirely sure what prompted your reply, though of course you're welcome to send it. b. :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Ah right, I'll chime in. But on balance I think even that was pretty mild. I very seldom see overt hostility towards women in Debian. I think I have seen more towards gays, and we appear to have more gay and bi male developers than women of any orientation. It's possible that it's all relative (tm). Given the amount of overt anti-gay rhetoric that we still hear today, debian appeared to me as having very little hostility towards lesbians/gays/etc. Certainly it was a much less hostile environment than the place where I was living at the time [1]. Hell, even in Australia where same-sex couples can get immigration visas (with a large amount of red tape), we still have our prime minister traipsing about arguing against same-sex marriage because it does nothing to support the survival of the species [2]. If only the world were ruled by the Dutch. :) Anyway, I have never though of debian as hostile towards gays/etc at all, certainly compared with the world at large. Is it that we have subcultures within Debian, and the gay/bi male one has reached a critical mass that enables new ones to be assimilated into our group more easily? FWIW, I wasn't aware of such a subculture when I joined back in 2001, and even now I'm finding it hard to think of more than a couple of other lesbian/gay/bi DDs. Though of course you don't wear your sexuality in the From: line the way you wear your gender, but still - I wouldn't really have said there was a lesbian/gay/bi subculture in debian as such. Maybe I'm just not paying attention. :) I do think you have it right when you observe that there is seldom overt hostility towards women in debian. I think the issues are more subtle than that, which can in fact make the problems harder to address. As an example, I'd say that debian, as with several open source projects, does have a bit of a bullying culture (certainly not pushed by everyone, or even by a majority, but certainly not invisible either). And for whatever reason, I think males often thrive better in that culture (look at debates regarding single-sex vs co-education schools). This may or may not deter some people from participating - this is all just wild speculation. Anyway, just thoughts on the issue. Like everyone else I have no good solutions. Ben. [1] http://www.sodomylaws.org/usa/oklahoma/oklahoma.htm [2] God bless Howard, the dear thing
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
The problem is you are a flake.
$ dict flake
...
4. a person who behaves strangely; a flaky[2] person.
[Colloq.]
[PJC]
...
2: a person with an unusual or odd personality [syn:
{eccentric}, {eccentric person}, {oddball}, {geek}]
...
Your yourself say you notice a lot of people exhibiting similar
behaviour, so it doesn't appear particularly strange, unusual or odd to
me.
(No that wasn't an attempt to put you down or be
unkind. It's simply the most accurate word I can think of.
Colloquialisms are frequently both unkind and inaccurately applied, and
regardless of your intentions, your use of flake comes across as no
exception. Saying you're a flake, but that's not meant unkindly is
like saying I'm not homophobic, I just don't want gays teaching my
children.
Vague fears of persecution are a sign of mental
instability which can't be fixed by an operating system free or otherwise.
Vague fears?? I don't think it would take either of us very long to
find examples of rude, dismissal and condescending behaviour in the BTS
or mailing lists.
Claiming someone who hesitates to jump into a social environment that is
sometimes friendly but sometimes hostile to be mentally unstable is not
really the most eloquent way to make your point. At the very least, it
certainly helps make these vague fears more realistic.
Ben.
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Honestly out of all the flame wars we've had can you think of any where being a yucky girl was an issue? I suspect you've missed the point somewhat. AIUI she does not fear that people will bully her because she's female. She simply fears that people will bully her (as they bully others, male or female), and her claim is that males (by social training or otherwise) are better suited to such environments than females are. Consider for instance the form of democracy in which the person who shouts loudest wins. This is one of several forms of democracy that actively operate within debian (others being the person who writes the code wins, the package maintainer(s) win, and person receiving the most votes wins). I want to claim that this first form of democracy is a particularly male thing, others may disagree. A little trepidation in a new environment is normal. When it becomes disabling then it is indeed mental illness. Disabling?? I expect it's more like she occasionally considers become more significantly involved in development, but for reasons above decides her efforts are probably better spent elsewhere. At least that's how I read it. I don't expect she's lying awake at nights trying to summon up the courage. I expect she's simply trying to add some personal insight into the issue that started this thread, i.e., why aren't there more female DDs. And to me this seems a perfectly good reason for why people might choose to expend their energies elsewhere. Certainly within the realm of sanity, whatever that might be. b.
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
I don't honestly give a rats ass about what sexuality a person is, but I get seriously pissed off when the 'We're a minority, we're special' card gets pulled. Whilst I see what you're saying, I fail to see how my post could possibly be read as pulling the minority card. The quote I gave was simply an example of an I mean this nicely, but here's an insult phrase that came easily to mind. Beyond its use in a phrase of this type, the sexuality issue had nothing whatsoever to do with my post. And my other post on the sexuality issue was about persecution regarding sexuality because that was the _precise_ issue that Branden raised. And my conclusion was actually that debian does not visibly persecute on this basis. So I'm not entirely sure what prompted your reply, though of course you're welcome to send it. b. :)
Politicians
All the debate on this yes/no issue I am finding somewhat astounding.. did Branden not make his position quite clear? Peter Makholm has sussed out what I meant by this. I just want to see resolution of the issue via a democratic process. He can't answer yes or no because he will take action to remove non-free iff the developer body votes for it. What he promises is a referendum and action according to the result; how can you get clearer than that? (Hmmm.. then again, that's what Howard said about the Australian republic.. *grin*) Ben. -- Ben Burton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://baasil.humbug.org.au/bab/ Director of Training Australian Informatics Olympiad Committee He hasn't an enemy in the world, and none of his friends like him. - Oscar Wilde -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Politicians
All the debate on this yes/no issue I am finding somewhat astounding.. did Branden not make his position quite clear? Peter Makholm has sussed out what I meant by this. I just want to see resolution of the issue via a democratic process. He can't answer yes or no because he will take action to remove non-free iff the developer body votes for it. What he promises is a referendum and action according to the result; how can you get clearer than that? (Hmmm.. then again, that's what Howard said about the Australian republic.. *grin*) Ben. -- Ben Burton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://baasil.humbug.org.au/bab/ Director of Training Australian Informatics Olympiad Committee He hasn't an enemy in the world, and none of his friends like him. - Oscar Wilde
