Re: [all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution
Wouter Verhelst writes (Re: [all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution): Personally, I think we shouldn't be worried about the FSF's opinion regarding the freeness of our distribution any more than the FSF is worried about our opinion of the GFDL. My starting point is that we should be worried about the FSF's opinion about the freeness of our distribution about as much as the FSF _should_ be worried about our opinion of the GFDL. If our allies with very similar goals disagree with us on something important, we should take notice. That doesn't mean we should just substitute their opinion for our own, but it should give us pause. Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20828.8917.477833.403...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
Re: [all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution
[your mail-to-news gateway seems to keep the Newsgroup header in the mail, which confuses my MUA. Dunno if that's a bug, but you might want to look into it] On 03-04-13 14:38, Ian Jackson wrote: Wouter Verhelst writes (Re: [all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution): Personally, I think we shouldn't be worried about the FSF's opinion regarding the freeness of our distribution any more than the FSF is worried about our opinion of the GFDL. My starting point is that we should be worried about the FSF's opinion about the freeness of our distribution about as much as the FSF _should_ be worried about our opinion of the GFDL. That is very much the same opinion, except that I'm disappointed with the lack of action from the FSF's side regarding the disagreement we have with them about the GFDL, to the extent that I've lost faith that a change in that area will ever happen anymore. If our allies with very similar goals disagree with us on something important, we should take notice. That doesn't mean we should just substitute their opinion for our own, but it should give us pause. Indeed. -- Copyshops should do vouchers. So that next time some bureaucracy requires you to mail a form in triplicate, you can mail it just once, add a voucher, and save on postage. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/515c3b76.7000...@debian.org
Re: [all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution
Paul Tagliamonte paul...@debian.org writes: What work will you be doing to continue Zach's efforts to negotiate with the FSF over Debian's status as a Free Software Distribution? I do not plan to be on the front line, but it is an important effort that must be continued. If elected, I'll make sure that the appropriate people are empowered to continue the effort, and I will be available for mediation, support and any other task that may arise. I will not, however, wish to become a driving force, because there are others who do that much better in this case than I would, and I'm more than happy to let people do what they're passionate about. Will you treat this issue as a priority? Can we expect continued open dialogue with the FSF on this issue? Would you be willing to help find the right concessions on both sides to collaborate? Yes, yes and yes. What is your opinion on this matter? While getting debian recognised by the FSF as a Free Software Distribution would be useful for both parties in my opinion, I see little hope for that to happen, because while we generally agree in principle, and our goals align quite well, there are subtle differences. That, however, is not a bad thing. I do not wish neither the FSF, nor Debian to compromise in either of our ideals, for that would be disastrous. It would still be useful to agree on what exactly we're disagreeing on, and why, and treat those disagreements respectfully and openly. Recognising that our goals align, and the differences are really just in the details would already be a great step forward. -- |8] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87zjy3cm5x@galadriel.madhouse-project.org
Re: [all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution
Lucas Nussbaum lu...@debian.org On 14/03/13 at 12:21 -0400, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: What work will you be doing to continue Zach's efforts to negotiate with the FSF over Debian's status as a Free Software Distribution? Actually, the FSF refers to Free System Distributions not Free Software Distributions. I think we'd say they contain non-free software, whereas FSF say they contain non-software because it regards only programs as software, so it's OK to forbid users editing the multiple included copies of the GNU Manifesto. [...] A great achievement would already be to agree with the FSF on a detailed list of disagreements. Some easy bugs are likely to be fixed in the process, but I'm not convinced that we should go much further, and negociate/compromise /make concessions with the FSF. That would be useful. I've been trying to clarify about debian in some discussions with a FSF-supporting group near some of our businesses: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/fsuk-manchester/2013-02/msg00027.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/fsuk-manchester/2013-03/msg2.html and maybe some other threads in that time - and you may like to skip the subthread where I get cross about trisquel's discrimination and restart at http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/fsuk-manchester/2013-02/msg00058.html But it still feels like trying to fit a carpet in a room where people are moving the walls: as soon as you push down one edge, a wall is moved, another edge pops up and is called unacceptably ugly! Meanwhile, if you point out that some other carpet doesn't fit either, that wall is moved back to accommodate it or the other carpet gets trimmed. If the walls were clearly fixed, we could decide whether or not we want to fit within them. Until we've got some measurements, which we can't take ourselves because we don't see the walls in the same places as the FSF, we can't and it's rather frustrating to try. Hope that explains, -- MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op. http://koha-community.org supporter, web and library systems developer. In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html Available for hire (including development) at http://www.software.coop/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1ugsii-0001dj...@bletchley.towers.org.uk
Re: [all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution
On 14/03/13 at 23:05 -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: What work will you be doing to continue Zach's efforts to negotiate with the FSF over Debian's status as a Free Software Distribution? Will you treat this issue as a priority? Can we expect continued open dialogue with the FSF on this issue? Would you be willing to help find the right concessions on both sides to collaborate? What is your opinion on this matter? I am more curious what the candidates think should or can be done in light of the FSF's absenteeism in that discussion (so far). What (if anything) can actually be accomplished without even a partially-defined path from their perspective? We don't need the FSF to do review of our archives and practices, and identify some bugs (as done in e.g. http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=686481). But of course, we need the FSF to explain what they consider inappropriate. If elected, I would: - add this topic to the list of things that I would check on a regular basis (prior to every DPL helpers meeting, for example) - make sure that the FSF is pinged on a regular basis, or by someone for is in charge of following that topic - communicate the status of this topic in monthly bits. I think that that's the only kind of pressure we can use anyway... Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130315123952.ga26...@xanadu.blop.info
Re: [all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution
On 2013-03-14 19:21, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: What work will you be doing to continue Zach's efforts to negotiate with the FSF over Debian's status as a Free Software Distribution? Will you treat this issue as a priority? Can we expect continued open dialogue with the FSF on this issue? Would you be willing to help find the right concessions on both sides to collaborate? I already commented in another message, talking about challenges for free software: - Divisions. When we take free software as an ideological/political position, it is natural for us to defend our principles even against divergent views from others who believe in free software. For example, we have had significant disagreements with the FSF. However, factionalism damages our cause, and makes it harder for outsiders to hear the viewpoints that we share. On 2013-03-15 06:05, Michael Gilbert wrote: I am more curious what the candidates think should or can be done in light of the FSF's absenteeism in that discussion (so far). What (if anything) can actually be accomplished without even a partially-defined path from their perspective? Negotiation Clearly it is hard for negotiations to progress if one or both partners are happier with the status quo. As overall projects, I suspect that both Debian and the FSF are probably currently happier to be seen to be standing solidly by their principles than to receive the other's support. (At the same time I would point out that the DFSG themselves contain some concession to existing licences. Indeed, it's quite plausible that if the GPL had come after the DFSG, we would have counted it as non-free, but I don't think that that would have been a good thing.) Even if the FSF were ready, for real negotiations, the negotiators from each camp need to be empowered with flexibility, and to have red lines that are weaker than the existing public positions -- it's not clear how we could achieve that in Debian. If a good dialogue was achieved, the most realistic outcome might be for the involved people to draw up a proposal for subsequent Debian approval, but there is a risk that *any* concession would just be voted down. From my perspective, the main thing we can do in the short term is to discourage either side from digging into its position further -- this makes it much harder for concessions to be made later on. If possible, agreeing a list of unresolved differences would indeed be useful, and might show some people who saw big disagreements that the differences are not that large. However, there is a danger that by publishing this list, the items will become more strongly group identifiers and points of pride by being stated more clearly. Equally, we should the temptation to avoid counting it against the FSF that it isn't negotiating now, and using that as an argument to discredit negotiation later. More general thoughts I certainly don't think that Debian should make negotiations to resolve differences of opinion a precondition for closer cooperation with the FSF. Instead, I would recommend that we attempt to pursue an ecumenical approach.[1] We already mean the same thing by free software, and agree with them that it is important, and that we would like all software to be free. We should recognise that this makes our positions extremely close. We share many of the same supporters, and many contributors. Some key differences are matters of terminology: we count documentation included in Debian as software; they count non-free software advertised for download from Debian servers as part of Debian. If we continue to attempt to cooperate on more issues, this may make our minor differences seem less important to both sides, and may be more likely to lead either side to make concessions than detailed discussion of why we hold our different positions. -- Moray [1] If anyone is interested, I could give a talk some time about how similar this all is to church history, with licences in place of creeds. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/c83c98de0cd719aba9a0327c109e9...@www.morayallan.com
[all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution
Hello, DPL'ers, What work will you be doing to continue Zach's efforts to negotiate with the FSF over Debian's status as a Free Software Distribution? Will you treat this issue as a priority? Can we expect continued open dialogue with the FSF on this issue? Would you be willing to help find the right concessions on both sides to collaborate? What is your opinion on this matter? Thanks! signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution
Hi Paul, On 14-03-13 17:21, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: Hello, DPL'ers, What work will you be doing to continue Zach's efforts to negotiate with the FSF over Debian's status as a Free Software Distribution? For those of us who've been living with their head in the sand (or so it appears), can you give some pointers towards those efforts? Will you treat this issue as a priority? Can we expect continued open dialogue with the FSF on this issue? Would you be willing to help find the right concessions on both sides to collaborate? What is your opinion on this matter? (not a candidate this year, but still:) Personally, I think we shouldn't be worried about the FSF's opinion regarding the freeness of our distribution any more than the FSF is worried about our opinion of the GFDL. But YMMV, of course. -- Copyshops should do vouchers. So that next time some bureaucracy requires you to mail a form in triplicate, you can mail it just once, add a voucher, and save on postage. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution
On 14/03/13 at 19:14 +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: Hi Paul, On 14-03-13 17:21, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: Hello, DPL'ers, What work will you be doing to continue Zach's efforts to negotiate with the FSF over Debian's status as a Free Software Distribution? For those of us who've been living with their head in the sand (or so it appears), can you give some pointers towards those efforts? https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/07/msg00016.html http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/fsf-collab-discuss/ Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130314194904.gd...@xanadu.blop.info
Re: [all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution
Hi, On 14/03/13 at 12:21 -0400, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: Hello, DPL'ers, What work will you be doing to continue Zach's efforts to negotiate with the FSF over Debian's status as a Free Software Distribution? Will you treat this issue as a priority? Can we expect continued open dialogue with the FSF on this issue? Would you be willing to help find the right concessions on both sides to collaborate? What is your opinion on this matter? That's a useful initiative, but a clearly a topic where I would welcome help from others. For example, we will have a former DPL soon that sounds quite motivated by this topic, and will have a lot of free time soon... :) So, if elected, I would monitor progress, and intervene if needed, but I would be unlikely to be on the front line. A great achievement would already be to agree with the FSF on a detailed list of disagreements. Some easy bugs are likely to be fixed in the process, but I'm not convinced that we should go much further, and negociate/compromise /make concessions with the FSF. Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130314204120.ge...@xanadu.blop.info
Re: [all candidates] Debian as an FSF Free Software Distribution
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: What work will you be doing to continue Zach's efforts to negotiate with the FSF over Debian's status as a Free Software Distribution? Will you treat this issue as a priority? Can we expect continued open dialogue with the FSF on this issue? Would you be willing to help find the right concessions on both sides to collaborate? What is your opinion on this matter? I am more curious what the candidates think should or can be done in light of the FSF's absenteeism in that discussion (so far). What (if anything) can actually be accomplished without even a partially-defined path from their perspective? Best of luck! Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CANTw=MOcc1KxBYQ9HDri4sWTJdqQNVcc8H-FGz6p=o45mbu...@mail.gmail.com
