Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
Hi, On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 09:12:25PM +0100, Peter Palfrader wrote: On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Peter Palfrader wrote: I so didn't want to get into this discussion, but here goes anyway. I'm considering formally proposing this GR (option): I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution: | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into | hardware components in order to make the component function properly. | It is not code that is run on the host CPU. | | Unfortunately such firmware often is distributed as so-called blobs, | with no source or further documentation that lets us learn how it works | or interacts with the hardware in question. By excluding such firmware | from Debian we exclude users that require such devices from installing | our operating system, or make it unnecessarily hard for them. | | Therefore the Debian project resolves that | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not | require it, | b) we however do require all other freedoms that the DFSG mandate from | components of our operating system, and | c) such firmware can and should be part of our official installation media. Looking for seconds now. I'm hereby seconding this proposal. Regards, Patrick signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 09:12:25PM +0100, Peter Palfrader wrote: | Therefore the Debian project resolves that | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not | require it, | b) we however do require all other freedoms that the DFSG mandate from | components of our operating system, and So do the licenses for all those blobs we have now comply with the DFSG other than that we don't have the source for it? Does this mean that even if the blob is GPL'd, we don't need sources for it? Kurt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Kurt Roeckx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does this mean that even if the blob is GPL'd, we don't need sources for it? That sounds like it would be a GPL violation. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 09:12:25PM +0100, Peter Palfrader wrote: I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution: | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into | hardware components in order to make the component function properly. | It is not code that is run on the host CPU. | | Unfortunately such firmware often is distributed as so-called blobs, | with no source or further documentation that lets us learn how it works | or interacts with the hardware in question. By excluding such firmware | from Debian we exclude users that require such devices from installing | our operating system, or make it unnecessarily hard for them. | | Therefore the Debian project resolves that | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not | require it, | b) we however do require all other freedoms that the DFSG mandate from | components of our operating system, and | c) such firmware can and should be part of our official installation media. Seconded. Kind regards, Philipp Kern -- .''`. Philipp KernDebian Developer : :' : http://philkern.de Release Assistant `. `' xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Stable Release Manager `-finger pkern/[EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
This one time, at band camp, Peter Palfrader said: | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into | hardware components in order to make the component function properly. | It is not code that is run on the host CPU. | | Unfortunately such firmware often is distributed as so-called blobs, | with no source or further documentation that lets us learn how it works | or interacts with the hardware in question. By excluding such firmware | from Debian we exclude users that require such devices from installing | our operating system, or make it unnecessarily hard for them. | | Therefore the Debian project resolves that | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not | require it, | b) we however do require all other freedoms that the DFSG mandate from | components of our operating system, and | c) such firmware can and should be part of our official installation media. I assume we have enough seconds by now, but since I said I would, I second this proposal. -- - | ,''`.Stephen Gran | | : :' :[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer | |`- http://www.debian.org | - signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
* Peter Palfrader ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [081114 21:01]: On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Peter Palfrader wrote: I so didn't want to get into this discussion, but here goes anyway. I'm considering formally proposing this GR (option): I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution: | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into | hardware components in order to make the component function properly. | It is not code that is run on the host CPU. | | Unfortunately such firmware often is distributed as so-called blobs, | with no source or further documentation that lets us learn how it works | or interacts with the hardware in question. By excluding such firmware | from Debian we exclude users that require such devices from installing | our operating system, or make it unnecessarily hard for them. | | Therefore the Debian project resolves that | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not | require it, | b) we however do require all other freedoms that the DFSG mandate from | components of our operating system, and | c) such firmware can and should be part of our official installation media. Looking for seconds now. seconded. Cheers, Andi signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
I know there's already a good number of seconds, but I said I'd second this proposal, so here I do: I second the proposal below. On Fri, Nov 14, 2008, Peter Palfrader wrote: On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Peter Palfrader wrote: I so didn't want to get into this discussion, but here goes anyway. I'm considering formally proposing this GR (option): I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution: | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into | hardware components in order to make the component function properly. | It is not code that is run on the host CPU. | | Unfortunately such firmware often is distributed as so-called blobs, | with no source or further documentation that lets us learn how it works | or interacts with the hardware in question. By excluding such firmware | from Debian we exclude users that require such devices from installing | our operating system, or make it unnecessarily hard for them. | | Therefore the Debian project resolves that | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not | require it, | b) we however do require all other freedoms that the DFSG mandate from | components of our operating system, and | c) such firmware can and should be part of our official installation media. Looking for seconds now. Thanks, weasel -- Loïc Minier signature.asc Description: Digital signature
call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Peter Palfrader wrote: I so didn't want to get into this discussion, but here goes anyway. I'm considering formally proposing this GR (option): I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution: | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into | hardware components in order to make the component function properly. | It is not code that is run on the host CPU. | | Unfortunately such firmware often is distributed as so-called blobs, | with no source or further documentation that lets us learn how it works | or interacts with the hardware in question. By excluding such firmware | from Debian we exclude users that require such devices from installing | our operating system, or make it unnecessarily hard for them. | | Therefore the Debian project resolves that | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not | require it, | b) we however do require all other freedoms that the DFSG mandate from | components of our operating system, and | c) such firmware can and should be part of our official installation media. Looking for seconds now. Thanks, weasel signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
Hi, On Friday 14 November 2008 21:12, Peter Palfrader wrote: I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution: | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into | hardware components in order to make the component function properly. | It is not code that is run on the host CPU. | | Unfortunately such firmware often is distributed as so-called blobs, | with no source or further documentation that lets us learn how it works | or interacts with the hardware in question. By excluding such firmware | from Debian we exclude users that require such devices from installing | our operating system, or make it unnecessarily hard for them. | | Therefore the Debian project resolves that | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not | require it, | b) we however do require all other freedoms that the DFSG mandate from | components of our operating system, and | c) such firmware can and should be part of our official installation | media. Seconded. regards, Holger pgpoX4f7AdrRx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
Peter Palfrader wrote: I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution: | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into | hardware components in order to make the component function properly. | It is not code that is run on the host CPU. | | Unfortunately such firmware often is distributed as so-called blobs, | with no source or further documentation that lets us learn how it works | or interacts with the hardware in question. By excluding such firmware | from Debian we exclude users that require such devices from installing | our operating system, or make it unnecessarily hard for them. | | Therefore the Debian project resolves that | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not | require it, | b) we however do require all other freedoms that the DFSG mandate from | components of our operating system, and | c) such firmware can and should be part of our official installation | media. Seconded. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 09:12:25PM +0100, Peter Palfrader wrote: I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution: | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into | hardware components in order to make the component function properly. | It is not code that is run on the host CPU. | | Unfortunately such firmware often is distributed as so-called blobs, | with no source or further documentation that lets us learn how it works | or interacts with the hardware in question. By excluding such firmware | from Debian we exclude users that require such devices from installing | our operating system, or make it unnecessarily hard for them. | | Therefore the Debian project resolves that | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not | require it, | b) we however do require all other freedoms that the DFSG mandate from | components of our operating system, and | c) such firmware can and should be part of our official installation media. Looking for seconds now. Seconded. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.[EMAIL PROTECTED] There's no sensation to compare with this Suspended animation, A state of bliss signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
* Peter Palfrader [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-11-14 21:12]: I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution: | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into | hardware components in order to make the component function properly. | It is not code that is run on the host CPU. | | Unfortunately such firmware often is distributed as so-called blobs, | with no source or further documentation that lets us learn how it works | or interacts with the hardware in question. By excluding such firmware | from Debian we exclude users that require such devices from installing | our operating system, or make it unnecessarily hard for them. | | Therefore the Debian project resolves that | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not | require it, | b) we however do require all other freedoms that the DFSG mandate from | components of our operating system, and | c) such firmware can and should be part of our official installation media. Looking for seconds now. Seconded. -- Martin Michlmayr http://www.cyrius.com/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
On Fri, 14, Nov, 2008 at 09:12:25PM +0100, Peter Palfrader spoke thus.. I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution: | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into | hardware components in order to make the component function properly. | It is not code that is run on the host CPU. | | Unfortunately such firmware often is distributed as so-called blobs, | with no source or further documentation that lets us learn how it works | or interacts with the hardware in question. By excluding such firmware | from Debian we exclude users that require such devices from installing | our operating system, or make it unnecessarily hard for them. | | Therefore the Debian project resolves that | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not | require it, | b) we however do require all other freedoms that the DFSG mandate from | components of our operating system, and | c) such firmware can and should be part of our official installation media. Seconded. Mark signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
In gmane.linux.debian.devel.vote, Peter Palfrader wrote: I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution: | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into | hardware components in order to make the component function properly. | It is not code that is run on the host CPU. | | Unfortunately such firmware often is distributed as so-called blobs, | with no source or further documentation that lets us learn how it works | or interacts with the hardware in question. By excluding such firmware | from Debian we exclude users that require such devices from installing | our operating system, or make it unnecessarily hard for them. | | Therefore the Debian project resolves that | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not | require it, | b) we however do require all other freedoms that the DFSG mandate from | components of our operating system, and | c) such firmware can and should be part of our official installation media. I second that. Cheers, Moritz signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
Le Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 09:12:25PM +0100, Peter Palfrader a écrit : I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution: | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into | hardware components in order to make the component function properly. | It is not code that is run on the host CPU. | | Unfortunately such firmware often is distributed as so-called blobs, | with no source or further documentation that lets us learn how it works | or interacts with the hardware in question. By excluding such firmware | from Debian we exclude users that require such devices from installing | our operating system, or make it unnecessarily hard for them. | | Therefore the Debian project resolves that | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not | require it, | b) we however do require all other freedoms that the DFSG mandate from | components of our operating system, and | c) such firmware can and should be part of our official installation media. Hi all, can the secretaries state whether it is a supermajority option or not? If yes, how will we deal with it after it is voted? The GR will not be a foundation document but will rule over one. It will be hidden between many other GRs, which is in my opinion messy, especially if it happens multiple times: it will raise the entry barrier for people who want to understand Debian's principles. If the goal is to make a permanent decision, I would recommend a clear permanent change of our foundation documents. Another concern is that while I feel that there is a strong majority who is keen on releasing Lenny with the firmwares, I am not sure if we all agree on the other consequences of this GR. My understanding of it is that it allows source-less firmwares in main, but Peter mentioned an interpretation in which the consequence of the GR is the creation of a new section (whith a transitory period where the firmwares stay in main). ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). In terms of workload for some developpers, it makes a big difference. I would really prefer hearing their opinion before voting for a supermajority resolution that may not be applied if nobody wants to deal with the work overhead of having a new section outside main. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: call for seconds: on firmware (was: on firmware (possible proposal))
- Charles Plessy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: can the secretaries state whether it is a supermajority option or not? If yes, how will we deal with it after it is voted? The GR will not be a foundation document but will rule over one. It will be hidden between many other GRs, which is in my opinion messy, especially if it happens multiple times: it will raise the entry barrier for people who want to understand Debian's principles. Seconded. I think that this GR would change the interpretation of a foundation document to the point of effectively rewriting it. SC #1 effectively becomes Debian will remain 100% Free except for binaries make us difficult to install on commodity hardware. I started using Debian at a time where you practically had to hand pick a Linux compatible hardware setup and the PC world was literally 99% Windows (or OS/2) so these alterations and their motivations are a little hard to swallow. I would rather see Debian + non-free ISO and install images for newbie users before a blanket acceptance of proprietary firmware. We could offer these disks as a service in addition to our official images that are completely Free. I realize that I haven't contributed to Debian enough lately to really complain about any of this but I still can't help being surprised. We should be running free ads for hardware vendors that offer pre-rolled Debian systems with no proprietary bits before we are doing any of this. -- Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
