Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.
Well , I think thats easily solved by including both terms ? just like you wrote it Werkzeugkette (toolchain), (German) and(English). Or is that what you suggested to the list on first place ? On 4/29/07, NAGY Viktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Holger Levsen wrote: Hi, On Saturday 28 April 2007 12:48, Jens Seidel wrote: And why do you not report this? I remember only one maybe two mails from you! Together with a proper fix it will be committed in less than one hour! I did report those, but the resistance on the on the debian-i18n-de mailinglist made me gave up on this. Werkzeugkette (toolchain), Veröffentlichungsziele (release goals), DSAs, subversion depots (translating repository (which is used in the official translation of the svn book) with depot, which is no german word as well), etc. were too much for me. There were quite some more, though I have to admit, now that I took a very brief look at the page in german again, that it looks a bit better now. Though Entfernte Privilegien-Eskalation (remote priviledge escalation) is still... not something I want to read personally. So, yes, I think it has become better. Thanks to those of you working on it. I appreciate it, as I know many german speaking people have problems understanding the english pages. But I do have problems understanding the german site and yet I want to browse the rest of the web in german, and this is not possible with the current webpage. Those are two different problems, and you dont fix one by fixing the other. I think you're not alone with this problem, as it's quite common among people who are in advanced level in a profession and learnt it together with English terminology. Translators always try to establish national terminology, which might help beginners but confuse experts. In Hungarian translation of w.d.o we try to keep the balance between English terminology and Hungarian neologism. Other translation projects don't do so, that's why I also prefer reading IT-specific websites in English. Viktor -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.
Holger Levsen wrote: Hi, On Saturday 28 April 2007 12:48, Jens Seidel wrote: And why do you not report this? I remember only one maybe two mails from you! Together with a proper fix it will be committed in less than one hour! I did report those, but the resistance on the on the debian-i18n-de mailinglist made me gave up on this. Werkzeugkette (toolchain), Veröffentlichungsziele (release goals), DSAs, subversion depots (translating repository (which is used in the official translation of the svn book) with depot, which is no german word as well), etc. were too much for me. There were quite some more, though I have to admit, now that I took a very brief look at the page in german again, that it looks a bit better now. Though Entfernte Privilegien-Eskalation (remote priviledge escalation) is still... not something I want to read personally. So, yes, I think it has become better. Thanks to those of you working on it. I appreciate it, as I know many german speaking people have problems understanding the english pages. But I do have problems understanding the german site and yet I want to browse the rest of the web in german, and this is not possible with the current webpage. Those are two different problems, and you dont fix one by fixing the other. I think you're not alone with this problem, as it's quite common among people who are in advanced level in a profession and learnt it together with English terminology. Translators always try to establish national terminology, which might help beginners but confuse experts. In Hungarian translation of w.d.o we try to keep the balance between English terminology and Hungarian neologism. Other translation projects don't do so, that's why I also prefer reading IT-specific websites in English. Viktor -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.
Hi, On Friday 27 April 2007 18:41, Sam Hocevar wrote: o Not wanting to browse the Debian website in French because I'm not satisfied with the translations but still wanting to see all other websites in French? Invalid - please don't shut your eyes from the problems but work on them. :P /me is quite annoyed by this comment. Been there, done that. Failed, tried again, failed again, tried again, etc. - Still working a bit on it (sometimes), but in general to me the german debian webpage is really deprecated. If I use it, I often either need to look up things in the english webpage to understand stuff, or I need to file bugs. Both is not really what I want to do, when I want to read something up on a webpage. Sorry, no. I'd probably accept that if I was the only reader for the site, but I am not. I basically just wanted to add that I too prefer to browse the Debian webpage in english, while (most of) the rest of the web in german. OTOH I would accept cookies from the debian webpage(s), which is something I generally dont do :) regards, Holger pgpEK2onbZk8W.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.
On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 12:15:00PM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote: On Friday 27 April 2007 18:41, Sam Hocevar wrote: o Not wanting to browse the Debian website in French because I'm not satisfied with the translations but still wanting to see all other websites in French? Invalid - please don't shut your eyes from the problems but work on them. :P /me is quite annoyed by this comment. Been there, done that. Failed, tried again, failed again, tried again, etc. - Still working a bit on it If you're not able to solve a problem alone you can always open a bug report and let other people deal with it. This may be much more efficient as to dig into problems you do not know well enough (of course you should in this case spend your time fixing bugs where you have appropriate knowledge). (sometimes), but in general to me the german debian webpage is really deprecated. If I use it, I often either need to look up things in the english webpage to understand stuff, or I need to file bugs. Both is not really what I want to do, when I want to read something up on a webpage. And why do you not report this? I remember only one maybe two mails from you! Together with a proper fix it will be committed in less than one hour! Jens -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.
Hi, On Saturday 28 April 2007 12:48, Jens Seidel wrote: And why do you not report this? I remember only one maybe two mails from you! Together with a proper fix it will be committed in less than one hour! I did report those, but the resistance on the on the debian-i18n-de mailinglist made me gave up on this. Werkzeugkette (toolchain), Veröffentlichungsziele (release goals), DSAs, subversion depots (translating repository (which is used in the official translation of the svn book) with depot, which is no german word as well), etc. were too much for me. There were quite some more, though I have to admit, now that I took a very brief look at the page in german again, that it looks a bit better now. Though Entfernte Privilegien-Eskalation (remote priviledge escalation) is still... not something I want to read personally. So, yes, I think it has become better. Thanks to those of you working on it. I appreciate it, as I know many german speaking people have problems understanding the english pages. But I do have problems understanding the german site and yet I want to browse the rest of the web in german, and this is not possible with the current webpage. Those are two different problems, and you dont fix one by fixing the other. regards, Holger pgp5e8u9ELKy1.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.
* Sam Hocevar [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-04-27 16:51]: Also, w.d.o may not be the only site using content-negociation, but since not all pages are translated you always end up seeing English at some point. Or some other language you chose. Content negotiation works with many languages ordered, that's the main problem with overruling it, it limits it to only one preference. This is trivially worked around by prepending a note saying Sorry, the page you requested is not available in $LANGUAGE, we're showing the English version instead at the top of untranslated pages. Alright, this is where it starts pretty dynamically, because the content negotiation just doesn't allow that and there is no support for custom 406 error page in apache that I know of. Having a cookie to store the language choice as soon as the user clicks on the language name or a little flag icon, Please read up in the archives (even in the recent threads) about why flags for language selection are a _very_ bad idea. and have this cookie override the browser content negociation settings seems extremely reasonable to me. Can you try to figure out the required ressources for that approach? And overriding is a bad idea like I tried to point out, but it might make partly sense with in addition to the browser setting. And what would be the reasoning behind such a wish? How common would you see such a wish? o Lending my computer to my girlfriend o Using a public terminal Valid reasons. o Not wanting to browse the Debian website in French because I'm not satisfied with the translations but still wanting to see all other websites in French? Invalid - please don't shut your eyes from the problems but work on them. :P o Using a web browser that does not support content negociation And what one would that be? One from this millenium, please. I don't see much usability enhancement by that suggestion, to be honest. I do see much. Not sure how common my views are, though. It might look like much, but I'm not sure if it would be properly doable and not let us face yet another Debian machine going down under its load. So long, Alfie P.S.: I hate my sigd. I mean ... I don't want to discourage that approach, I even added some thoughts about what should be done when it's tried. I'm just not really convinced that it is going to gain us much, if any. -- Some men see things as they are and say why - I dream things that never were and say why not. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.
On Fri, Apr 27, 2007, Gerfried Fuchs wrote: Having a cookie to store the language choice as soon as the user clicks on the language name or a little flag icon, Please read up in the archives (even in the recent threads) about why flags for language selection are a _very_ bad idea. ACK. and have this cookie override the browser content negociation settings seems extremely reasonable to me. Can you try to figure out the required ressources for that approach? And overriding is a bad idea like I tried to point out, but it might make partly sense with in addition to the browser setting. A user action (let me browse this site in $LANG now) overriding the settings does not sound like a bad idea to me. o Not wanting to browse the Debian website in French because I'm not satisfied with the translations but still wanting to see all other websites in French? Invalid - please don't shut your eyes from the problems but work on them. :P Sorry, no. I'd probably accept that if I was the only reader for the site, but I am not. o Using a web browser that does not support content negociation And what one would that be? One from this millenium, please. I may have missed where it's done, but I cannot get it to work with Liferea's integrated browser, which means w.d.o links aren't in the same language when accessed from my RSS feeds and with my other browsers. Cheers, Sam. -- echo creationism | tr -d holy godly goal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.
* NAGY Viktor [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-04-23 11:09]: These constraints are quite strict. Are there any website statistics which prove that it's really worth to maintain website mirrors and give up using server-side dynamic content? And what would you want to use server-side dynamic content for? I haven't heard of a suggestion yet that made really sense - only the question if it could be available. Besides, keep in mind the propable need for a database backend, the required load performance of all that and the bigger needs on administration and on checking the additional used infrastructure for possible security problems. So long, Alfie -- The biggest difference is that now I can hear bass. I had almost forgotten that Metallica isn't a teenage girl band. -- Lars Wirzenius, http://liw.iki.fi/liw/log/2004-02.html#20040212c signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.
On 2007-04-23T07:55:23+0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was browsing through the site and noticed that even after i had changed to the spanish version, every time i clicked on a link it would take to the english version of the page. That is because your have such settings in your web browser which requests primarly english pages. Please read following page: URL: http://www.de.debian.org/intro/cn -- Tommi Vainikainen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.
Hi Rolando, On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 10:55:23PM -0600, Rolando Quiros wrote: I was browsing through the site and noticed that even after i had changed to the spanish version, every time i clicked on a link it would take to the english version of the page. Could we improve this by either creating a that's because Debian's website use content negotation to display the proper translation and is controlled by your browser settings. See http://www.debian.org/intro/cn for details. separate directory and copy/move other languages pages and links to them ? or what if anything can we do for this ? ... for people wanting to browse No, this is not possible. Assume you want to view the Spanish translation of a page which is missing. You would probably get the Enlish version (dependent on your browser settings). If you follow a link in this page you want to get the Spanish page not the English one, right? through the site in other languages should be really annoying having to wait for a page to load, just to click on a link, to wait for it to load on the language they want...every time for every page. It was already suggested multiple times to remember users choice of the selected language. There where also some suggestions to a possible implementation such as using cookies. Don't know about the status. Please note that Debian's website has currently a few contraints such as using only static content (no javascript, ...) and allows also mirroring of the content ... Jens -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.
Jens Seidel wrote: It was already suggested multiple times to remember users choice of the selected language. There where also some suggestions to a possible implementation such as using cookies. Don't know about the status. Please note that Debian's website has currently a few contraints such as using only static content (no javascript, ...) and allows also mirroring of the content ... These constraints are quite strict. Are there any website statistics which prove that it's really worth to maintain website mirrors and give up using server-side dynamic content? Viktor -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.
On Mon, Apr 23, 2007 at 11:09:23AM +0200, NAGY Viktor wrote: Jens Seidel wrote: It was already suggested multiple times to remember users choice of the selected language. There where also some suggestions to a possible implementation such as using cookies. Don't know about the status. Please note that Debian's website has currently a few contraints such as using only static content (no javascript, ...) and allows also mirroring of the content ... These constraints are quite strict. Are there any website statistics which prove that it's really worth to maintain website mirrors and give up using server-side dynamic content? There's no statistics, but we're not going to give up our mirrors up when many of the things that can be done server-side could be done client-side. Actually right now we are not doing redirection to users based on their IP-Geographic location mapping, but we could easily do that on the server side for www.debian.org if the needs arises. In any case, I'm not opposed to fancy language-selection using JavaScript and cookies for those users that are incapable of setting up content-negotiation in their browsers. Which is something actually surprisingly common (and *sooo* easy to fix by the users' themselves...) Yes, I know what Jens said: no Javascript is a requirement but I think he actually meant Javascript should not be a requirement to access content as that would make it inaccesible for text browsers (for example, Javascript-based menus should be ruled out) and not Javascript should not be used anywhere at the site. Javascript+cookie language selection in *addition* to content negotiation would be, IMHO, OK if properly implemented. Regards Javier signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.
no Javascript is a requirement There is no problem at all with using javascript however there should ALWAYS be an alternative in case the user doesnt have javascript enabled. This isn't too hard to implement in most cases as the no script tag can be used. James -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
