RE: Re[2]: DSN:Re: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] A Question of Ethics
In a corporate setting a company may or may not have an Internet/email/conduct policy. If not, it may be very dificult to fire someone for conduct that they didn't agree to abide by and if it came to a lawsuit they would probably loose. In fact, in TN, a long-haul trucker won a worker's comp lawsuit against his employer for injuries suffered while having sex in his cab, driving down the road and he was hit by a train (the female passenger, having no seat belt and not being seated in a passenger seat anyway, was thrown from the truck and killed). The first court ruled against the trucker (holding the belief that such behavior was outside the bounds of reasonable on-the-job behavior and as such, not a compensible accident). Higher courts ruled for the trucker - there was no written policy prohibiting such behavior and this person was used to doing this on a routine basis while performing his job (doesn't this make you feel safe, driving the freeway when it is full of trucks?). So, yes, without a written policy prohibiting certain behavior, you will probably lose in a suit. However, in any case, using porn email as proof of violating a written policy would probably also result in losing such a suit -- all it would take is having one person on a jury that has an email account of their own -- eventually, everyone gets porn email, it seems, and once on the list, the amount seems to keep adding up (we even get it on email accounts that were set up as a mailing list for internal distribution, that have never sent any emails out to the world). And much porn email can look as though it was asked for, substituting first names (gathered using many techniques) into long messages, using subject lines that look as tho you asked for the information (lures to get the email opened), etc. A better use of Declude would be to offer porn filtering (delete on detection) and spam forwarding (for retrieval of misclassified messages when necessary). Better proof would be simply browsing someones workstation and web surfing history (few delete such things and one of the worst cases I ever worked on was an attorney several years back that had installed compression onto his drives in order to make room for all the pornographic games, pictures, movies that had been downloaded and stored all over his official company computer). K. Oland --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
Re: Re[2]: DSN:Re: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] A Question of Ethics
I can't believe you guys are agonizing over this ethical dilema. it redicuolus... have you been so jaded by popular opinion of what is right or wrong that you let $$$ signs dictate what is right and wrong? Poronography and all the sick things that go with it ( i don't think i have to elaborate do I?) are PLAIN WRONG! Anyone caught dealing with it within our system is removed and banned instantly! no chance of appealIf you don't like the terms conditions then leave! And you know what... our clients like that .. many signup with us for that very fact they feel safer that we enforce those rules.. Ty it you'll be surprised. - Original Message - From: Karen Oland [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 7:23 PM Subject: RE: Re[2]: DSN:Re: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] A Question of Ethics In a corporate setting a company may or may not have an Internet/email/conduct policy. If not, it may be very dificult to fire someone for conduct that they didn't agree to abide by and if it came to a lawsuit they would probably loose. In fact, in TN, a long-haul trucker won a worker's comp lawsuit against his employer for injuries suffered while having sex in his cab, driving down the road and he was hit by a train (the female passenger, having no seat belt and not being seated in a passenger seat anyway, was thrown from the truck and killed). The first court ruled against the trucker (holding the belief that such behavior was outside the bounds of reasonable on-the-job behavior and as such, not a compensible accident). Higher courts ruled for the trucker - there was no written policy prohibiting such behavior and this person was used to doing this on a routine basis while performing his job (doesn't this make you feel safe, driving the freeway when it is full of trucks?). So, yes, without a written policy prohibiting certain behavior, you will probably lose in a suit. However, in any case, using porn email as proof of violating a written policy would probably also result in losing such a suit -- all it would take is having one person on a jury that has an email account of their own -- eventually, everyone gets porn email, it seems, and once on the list, the amount seems to keep adding up (we even get it on email accounts that were set up as a mailing list for internal distribution, that have never sent any emails out to the world). And much porn email can look as though it was asked for, substituting first names (gathered using many techniques) into long messages, using subject lines that look as tho you asked for the information (lures to get the email opened), etc. A better use of Declude would be to offer porn filtering (delete on detection) and spam forwarding (for retrieval of misclassified messages when necessary). Better proof would be simply browsing someones workstation and web surfing history (few delete such things and one of the worst cases I ever worked on was an attorney several years back that had installed compression onto his drives in order to make room for all the pornographic games, pictures, movies that had been downloaded and stored all over his official company computer). K. Oland --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- [Stealth Anti-Virus scanning] courtesy http://www.oilfielddirectory.com --- [Stealth Anti-Virus scanning] courtesy http://www.oilfielddirectory.com --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: Re[2]: DSN:Re: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] A Question of Ethics
I'll trust you on that, and apologize for the roundhouse classification. Yet in your several dozen cases where divorces were contemplated, employee terminations took place, even people who were sent back to prison and kids who have been grounded examples, clearly your tool was used as spyware. And these are the cases which you brought under discussion. This is only in reference to a business environment. I suppose you can say that any monitoring tool or piece of software could be spyware. I know in several instances where employee's were let go or suspended due to inappropriate activity were based solely on the analysis of firewall logs that record all internet activity. In our Computer Security Policy we do not specifically say that the firewall is logging everyone's internet surfing activities. However in the computer security document it is spelled out that they are using company equipment and the company reserves the right to monitor any and all activity. Would you say in this instance that the tools (firewall logging) used would be classified as spyware? Darrell --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: Re[2]: DSN:Re: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] A Question of Ethics
On 02/27/03 9:32am you wrote... I'll trust you on that, and apologize for the roundhouse classification. Yet in your several dozen cases where divorces were contemplated, employee terminations took place, even people who were sent back to prison and kids who have been grounded examples, clearly your tool was used as spyware. And these are the cases which you brought under discussion. This is only in reference to a business environment. Would you say in this instance that the tools (firewall logging) used would be classified as spyware? I would imagine that any product that logs any activity could be considered spyware in certain circumstances. This includes IMail, Declude, Exchange, MS Proxy, anything that logs activity. There is a huge difference between products that log activity and spyware. For example, there is a product that takes low res screen shots of the computer and allows the parent, employer, or other supervisorial person to playback everything that was done. Several of CYBERsitter's competitors have built in keyboard logging that keeps a record of everything typed. Although I am sure this has cost us sales and review points, we have consistently refused to incorporate similar functions into CYBERsitter. We have been asked thousands of times to provide functions to capture email messages, and capture instant messaging content. Certainly this is possible, but we won't do that either although there are other products have this capability. In my opinion, these are spyware products. Our primary purpose in keeping logs is for support purposes. The user's purpose is probably different, but here again, this is a common function of all tools that manage or distribute content. We also track users who come to our web sites. We know what pages they visit, their browser versions, IP addresses, locale, referrers, and operating systems. We, like tens of thousands of other online retailers, use this information for improving traffic flow, determining user interest, and fine tuning our marketing. So are we spying on our customers? I can use the logs generated by IMail to spy on people as easily as any spyware product. I can see who sent what to who, where and when. Does this make it spyware? I don't think so. You can hold any message that meets certain criteria with Declude and the administrator can read the entire message. It doesn't have to be spam. Does this make Declude spyware too? I think that an overly broad interpretation of what is spyware is foolish, no matter how the data is used. Virtually every Internet related application is designed to manage or regulate the distribution or reception of data in some way. Tools that log activity are absolutely necessary. Tools that are intentionally designed to invade a users privacy are quite another thing entirely. --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: Re[2]: DSN:Re: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] A Question of Ethics
The term spyware refers to software whose sole purpose is to surreptitiously gather and transmit information about a user. A firewall log is a neutral record of general internet activity. Any reasonably informed adult who uses the internet should understand their actions may be logged, in the same way they understand a policeman might be watching them when they drive their car down a road. Certain parts of our daily activities are observed; that's a facet of urban life. What matters is whether the prior intent of the observation is hostile. Keith Purtell, Web/Network Administrator VantageMed Operations (Kansas City) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Darrell L. Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:33 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re[2]: DSN:Re: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] A Question of Ethics I suppose you can say that any monitoring tool or piece of software could be spyware. I know in several instances where employee's were let go or suspended due to inappropriate activity were based solely on the analysis of firewall logs that record all internet activity. In our Computer Security Policy we do not specifically say that the firewall is logging everyone's internet surfing activities. However in the computer security document it is spelled out that they are using company equipment and the company reserves the right to monitor any and all activity. Would you say in this instance that the tools (firewall logging) used would be classified as spyware? Darrell --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: Re[2]: DSN:Re: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] A Question of Ethics
In a corporate setting a company may or may not have an Internet/email/conduct policy. If not, it may be very dificult to fire someone for conduct that they didn't agree to abide by and if it came to a lawsuit they would probably loose. In fact the company could loose twice. Once by someone who was offended by a fellow employees use of porn at the workplace and second by a wrongful termination suit by the offender. Many companies just added the Internet and email to the system without considering the concequences. Time to examine the company policies. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Purtell Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 9:34 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re[2]: DSN:Re: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] A Question of Ethics The term spyware refers to software whose sole purpose is to surreptitiously gather and transmit information about a user. A firewall log is a neutral record of general internet activity. Any reasonably informed adult who uses the internet should understand their actions may be logged, in the same way they understand a policeman might be watching them when they drive their car down a road. Certain parts of our daily activities are observed; that's a facet of urban life. What matters is whether the prior intent of the observation is hostile. Keith Purtell, Web/Network Administrator VantageMed Operations (Kansas City) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Darrell L. Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:33 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re[2]: DSN:Re: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] A Question of Ethics I suppose you can say that any monitoring tool or piece of software could be spyware. I know in several instances where employee's were let go or suspended due to inappropriate activity were based solely on the analysis of firewall logs that record all internet activity. In our Computer Security Policy we do not specifically say that the firewall is logging everyone's internet surfing activities. However in the computer security document it is spelled out that they are using company equipment and the company reserves the right to monitor any and all activity. Would you say in this instance that the tools (firewall logging) used would be classified as spyware? Darrell --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com.
RE: Re[2]: DSN:Re: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] A Question of Ethics
My feelings are along this same line. It seems that this questions revolves around what the stated company policy is regarding usage of these company resources. As stated in several emails before, email and internet usage and the computers they are used are are company owned assets and should be managed as such. To me they are no different than any other company owned asset; vehicles, equipment, tools, facilites, telephones etc. There is a perceived idea that these tools are free. The allowed usage and subsequent penalty for misuse should be covered by an enforceable company policy. If an adequate policy is in place, would it be any different to fire an employee for misuse of a company vehicle (personal deliveries and errands on company time for example) than for downloading porn? I think it is time to examine what the stated policy is on this usage. Does anyone have a company policy for email/internet use that they would be willing to share? I believe ours needs some updating. Dan Spangenberg -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Stavert Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re[2]: DSN:Re: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] A Question of Ethics In a corporate setting a company may or may not have an Internet/email/conduct policy. If not, it may be very dificult to fire someone for conduct that they didn't agree to abide by and if it came to a lawsuit they would probably loose. In fact the company could loose twice. Once by someone who was offended by a fellow employees use of porn at the workplace and second by a wrongful termination suit by the offender. Many companies just added the Internet and email to the system without considering the concequences. Time to examine the company policies. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Purtell Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 9:34 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re[2]: DSN:Re: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] A Question of Ethics The term spyware refers to software whose sole purpose is to surreptitiously gather and transmit information about a user. A firewall log is a neutral record of general internet activity. Any reasonably informed adult who uses the internet should understand their actions may be logged, in the same way they understand a policeman might be watching them when they drive their car down a road. Certain parts of our daily activities are observed; that's a facet of urban life. What matters is whether the prior intent of the observation is hostile. Keith Purtell, Web/Network Administrator VantageMed Operations (Kansas City) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Darrell L. Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:33 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re[2]: DSN:Re: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] A Question of Ethics I suppose you can say that any monitoring tool or piece of software could be spyware. I know in several instances where employee's were let go or suspended due to inappropriate activity were based solely on the analysis of firewall logs that record all internet activity. In our Computer Security Policy we do not specifically say that the firewall is logging everyone's internet surfing activities. However in the computer security document it is spelled out that they are using company equipment and the company reserves the right to monitor any and all activity. Would you say in this instance that the tools (firewall logging) used would be classified as spyware? Darrell --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail mailing list. To unsubscribe, just send an E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], and type unsubscribe Declude.JunkMail. The archives can be found at http://www.mail-archive.com. --- [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Declude Virus (http://www.declude.com)] --- This E-mail came from the Declude.JunkMail
