Re: [libreoffice-design] Windows 8 version?
I'm glad that Metro/Win8 won't be supported soon. For one thing I think this kind of Desktop is a really bad Idea and the second thing is that I doubt, that the metro desktop will gain a relevant user number. On Desktop computers people will continue using the classic desktop with windows and on tablet computers Windows doesn't have a chance anyway. So thanks to the LO developers for this decision! best regards Christopher On 13.04.2012 20:59, Alberto Delgado wrote: I don't think the developer team plans to support Windows 8 Metro anytime soon, so any work on it would be futile right now. Too bad, it would be a great opportunity to enter the marketplace but i guess it's ok. However, the link i posted called Metro style guidelines has pretty good ideas that could be applied to the android version, like side-scrolling menus with semantic zoom -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Windows 8 version?
I second Christopher. The metro UI is terrible and will fail. If micr$oft does not change back or bring more of what they have now with windo$ 7 then the end is near. On Apr 14, 2012 3:05 AM, Christopher Stark christopherst...@gmx.de wrote: I'm glad that Metro/Win8 won't be supported soon. For one thing I think this kind of Desktop is a really bad Idea and the second thing is that I doubt, that the metro desktop will gain a relevant user number. On Desktop computers people will continue using the classic desktop with windows and on tablet computers Windows doesn't have a chance anyway. So thanks to the LO developers for this decision! best regards Christopher On 13.04.2012 20:59, Alberto Delgado wrote: I don't think the developer team plans to support Windows 8 Metro anytime soon, so any work on it would be futile right now. Too bad, it would be a great opportunity to enter the marketplace but i guess it's ok. However, the link i posted called Metro style guidelines has pretty good ideas that could be applied to the android version, like side-scrolling menus with semantic zoom -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Updated Whiteboard template with more instructional text
Hi Stefan, 2012/4/13 Stefan Knorr (Astron) heinzless...@googlemail.com Hi Mirek, I'd prefer to keep the current summary, basically because it's a good example of what a whiteboard summary should look like -- a single sentence that precisely summarizes the purpose of the whiteboard. Well, besides teaching me a new word (pithy) (thanks!), I am not completely convinced here. One sentence will not be enough in most cases as there are often multiple problems with the current implementation and remedy usability problems in toolbar/dialog XY is not especially helpful as a summary, because it could be applied to virtually any whiteboard. Every whiteboard should focus on a single issue. It will either be UI element-oriented, like Make the status bar more usable, task-oriented, like Make it easy to pick a custom color, or feature-oriented, like Improve color management. If it can't be put into a single sentence, then it should go into several whiteboards. Yes, the description is quite generic, but that's actually a plus -- it doesn't limit the design in any way and makes designers think outside the box. What is a whiteboard? is answered in the Definition of terms section. Sure it is, but when you are a newcomer, you don't look for Terminology first. You look at the summary. As soon as you've understood the Whiteboard structure, of course you know there's a Terminology section and you can look for it. If you are a newcomer, you shouldn't be creating whiteboards. This will be solved once we have a proper whiteboard workflow. BTW, is it really necessary to change the name of the Definition of Terms section? I thought it was pretty self-explanatory. The warning to not use whiteboards for discussion isn't really of use for whiteboard creators, but rather for people who want to discuss the whiteboard. I think the sole link under Discussion makes it clear enough for all whiteboard visitors that all discussions take place on that link. Disagree again, if you're a newcomer ... (same reasoning). Again, newcomers shouldn't be creating whiteboards. BTW, even people that are not subscribed to the list can post, so there's no need to use the Talk page on the wiki. Absolutely correct, will change. * the listed States do now use primarily nouns ok Cool. I like the stronger colors, but I'd prefer to have a red Out of Scope header. As LibreOffice doesn't have a red color among its marketing colors (oddly enough), could you make up one? Orange just doesn't have the same DON'T do this warning effect. I know. Orange is really odd and the lack of red is an oversight in our palette. I'll see what I can do (but I have no idea how that palette was created). Sometimes I wonder if we hadn't better embraced the Tango colours wholesale. That'd have avoided some of the obstacles with branding v/ theme etc. Obviously, it would have also created new problems, namely icons seeming less attractive on Windows systems. +1 four Tango colors. I don't think they cause icons to seem less attractive on Windows -- that's a problem of icon design, not of colours. The new Gnome icon theme is detailed, beautiful, and would fit perfectly under Windows or Mac OS. * there is now a sub-head called Owner I disagree with whiteboards having an owner. So, for one: two or more owners = no problem. For the other: we should have some clear responsibilities, I think. As for whether we call that position owner or maintainer ... idk, but I found owner to be clearer (but am open to change that). Anyway, I thought, we'd agreed upon having maintainers, no? Yes. I'd prefer to use the term Maintainer, as the term Owner implies that only the owner is responsible for making key decisions. Basically, the maintainer's job would be to make sure the whiteboard is readable, clean, organized, and up-to-date. The maintainer doesn't need a prominent place on the whiteboard -- perhaps just a comment at the top: !-- This page is maintained by User:Atron --. and that links to bugs, relevant art, and proposals can be added by anyone in the community. Sure, I'll change that part of the instructions. It also means that nobody has a superior vote to the rest, which makes the design process more democratic. IMHO, we probably don't want to be the democratic enclave in the meritocratic community. There are a few reasons why this is a meritocracy, the most important being that people that aren't supposed to influence your process (of course we still _need_ to remain open to people that are currently not part of the community). Openly voting on the mailing list and on the IRC seems to work well enough for now -- the people here all seem to be knowledgeable about the current UI and UX in general, clueless people don't tend to sign up. I don't want to have people who have a vote superior to the rest. On the other hand, we do need some design principles to guide our decisions
[libreoffice-design] Proposed Idea Workflow
Please take a look at my proposal for our idea workflow and tell me what you think: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Proposed%20Idea%20Workflow -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposed Idea Workflow
I love it, should be able to get some work done with these strict dead lines. Do we have a hig? On Apr 14, 2012 9:50 AM, Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com wrote: Please take a look at my proposal for our idea workflow and tell me what you think: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Proposed%20Idea%20Workflow -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposed Idea Workflow
Have you thought of using wunderkit? it's a very simple way to collaborate in projects like this, you can talk, set tasks for specific peoople with deadlines and add notes with any information needed. www.wunderkit.com Or stixy, to work on like a whiteboard. http://www.stixy.com There are many collaboration systems created for projects such as this, i'm surprised that you're using a mailinglist with wiki whiteboards when the internet has way better tools for organizing collaborative workflows. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposed Idea Workflow
Hello Mirek, Thank you a lot for putting this workflow in motion! I think many good things will come out of it. Alberto, do wunderkit or sitxy integrate within our infrastructure? Is it open source? What about the data? The reason we use wikis and mailing lists is that they are proven tools for collaboration and they belong to us. Best, Charles. Le 14 avr. 2012 18:45, Alberto Delgado alberto...@gmail.com a écrit : Have you thought of using wunderkit? it's a very simple way to collaborate in projects like this, you can talk, set tasks for specific peoople with deadlines and add notes with any information needed. www.wunderkit.com Or stixy, to work on like a whiteboard. http://www.stixy.com There are many collaboration systems created for projects such as this, i'm surprised that you're using a mailinglist with wiki whiteboards when the internet has way better tools for organizing collaborative workflows. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Windows 8 version?
+1 On Apr 14, 2012, at 11:05 AM, Alberto Delgado wrote: I don't really think it's bad, I've been using windows 8 for a while now and it works perfectly on desktop, surprisingly, it works great even when having in mind that the system is primarily thought for tablets. I understand that working on other projects right now might damage the ongoing work, but you shouldn't set a Metro UI version aside just because you don't like it. Windows has an enormous amount of users, users that either don't like or are afraid of changing to MacOS or Linux, users that are very likely migrate to W8, also, W8 for tablets is a much more powerful OS than iOS or Android, specially when the user is using it for work (sound like your public, right?), on the other side, the PC version will be receiving a great amount of users soon enough, they won't change their mind just because it doesn't feel right for you. Whichever reason for which you don't like W8 is not enough to forget about the great amount of users the OS has. Again, take it from me, I've been using it on desktop and i can't wait to get a tablet with W8 an OS that is not as closed as Apple's and not fragmented as Google's. Try it out before saying anything about it, the link to the free preview is in my original e-mail. I'm not saying you should start working on it right now, but it IS important and useful to prepare a version for Windows 8 soon. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposed Idea Workflow
On 04/14/2012 09:50 AM, Mirek M. wrote: Please take a look at my proposal for our idea workflow and tell me what you think: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Proposed%20Idea%20Workflow +1 from a very occasional contributor. It should help us to close proposals instead of having them linger and never quite get finished. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Updated Whiteboard template with more instructional text
On 04/14/2012 06:16 AM, Mirek M. wrote: Hi Stefan, 2012/4/13 Stefan Knorr (Astron)heinzless...@googlemail.com Hi Mirek, I'd prefer to keep the current summary, basically because it's a good example of what a whiteboard summary should look like -- a single sentence that precisely summarizes the purpose of the whiteboard. Well, besides teaching me a new word (pithy) (thanks!), I am not completely convinced here. One sentence will not be enough in most cases as there are often multiple problems with the current implementation and remedy usability problems in toolbar/dialog XY is not especially helpful as a summary, because it could be applied to virtually any whiteboard. Every whiteboard should focus on a single issue. It will either be UI element-oriented, like Make the status bar more usable, task-oriented, like Make it easy to pick a custom color, or feature-oriented, like Improve color management. If it can't be put into a single sentence, then it should go into several whiteboards. +1 Yes, the description is quite generic, but that's actually a plus -- it doesn't limit the design in any way and makes designers think outside the box. What is a whiteboard? is answered in the Definition of terms section. Sure it is, but when you are a newcomer, you don't look for Terminology first. You look at the summary. As soon as you've understood the Whiteboard structure, of course you know there's a Terminology section and you can look for it. If you are a newcomer, you shouldn't be creating whiteboards. This will be solved once we have a proper whiteboard workflow. BTW, is it really necessary to change the name of the Definition of Terms section? I thought it was pretty self-explanatory. The warning to not use whiteboards for discussion isn't really of use for whiteboard creators, but rather for people who want to discuss the whiteboard. I think the sole link under Discussion makes it clear enough for all whiteboard visitors that all discussions take place on that link. Disagree again, if you're a newcomer ... (same reasoning). Again, newcomers shouldn't be creating whiteboards. BTW, even people that are not subscribed to the list can post, so there's no need to use the Talk page on the wiki. Absolutely correct, will change. * the listed States do now use primarily nouns ok Cool. I like the stronger colors, but I'd prefer to have a red Out of Scope header. As LibreOffice doesn't have a red color among its marketing colors (oddly enough), could you make up one? Orange just doesn't have the same DON'T do this warning effect. I know. Orange is really odd and the lack of red is an oversight in our palette. I'll see what I can do (but I have no idea how that palette was created). Sometimes I wonder if we hadn't better embraced the Tango colours wholesale. That'd have avoided some of the obstacles with branding v/ theme etc. Obviously, it would have also created new problems, namely icons seeming less attractive on Windows systems. +1 four Tango colors. I don't think they cause icons to seem less attractive on Windows -- that's a problem of icon design, not of colours. The new Gnome icon theme is detailed, beautiful, and would fit perfectly under Windows or Mac OS. * there is now a sub-head called Owner I disagree with whiteboards having an owner. So, for one: two or more owners = no problem. For the other: we should have some clear responsibilities, I think. As for whether we call that position owner or maintainer ... idk, but I found owner to be clearer (but am open to change that). Anyway, I thought, we'd agreed upon having maintainers, no? Yes. I'd prefer to use the term Maintainer, as the term Owner implies that only the owner is responsible for making key decisions. Basically, the maintainer's job would be to make sure the whiteboard is readable, clean, organized, and up-to-date. The maintainer doesn't need a prominent place on the whiteboard -- perhaps just a comment at the top:!-- This page is maintained by User:Atron --. and that links to bugs, relevant art, and proposals can be added by anyone in the community. Sure, I'll change that part of the instructions. It also means that nobody has a superior vote to the rest, which makes the design process more democratic. IMHO, we probably don't want to be the democratic enclave in the meritocratic community. There are a few reasons why this is a meritocracy, the most important being that people that aren't supposed to influence your process (of course we still _need_ to remain open to people that are currently not part of the community). Openly voting on the mailing list and on the IRC seems to work well enough for now -- the people here all seem to be knowledgeable about the current UI and UX in general, clueless people don't tend to sign up. I don't want to have people who have a vote superior to the rest. On the other hand, we do need some design principles to guide our decisions and ensure consistency,
Re: [libreoffice-design] Windows 8 version?
2012/4/14 Alberto Delgado alberto...@gmail.com I don't really think it's bad, I've been using windows 8 for a while now and it works perfectly on desktop, surprisingly, it works great even when having in mind that the system is primarily thought for tablets. I understand that working on other projects right now might damage the ongoing work, but you shouldn't set a Metro UI version aside just because you don't like it. Windows has an enormous amount of users, users that either don't like or are afraid of changing to MacOS or Linux, users that are very likely migrate to W8, also, W8 for tablets is a much more powerful OS than iOS or Android, specially when the user is using it for work (sound like your public, right?), on the other side, the PC version will be receiving a great amount of users soon enough, they won't change their mind just because it doesn't feel right for you. Whichever reason for which you don't like W8 is not enough to forget about the great amount of users the OS has. Again, take it from me, I've been using it on desktop and i can't wait to get a tablet with W8 an OS that is not as closed as Apple's and not fragmented as Google's. Try it out before saying anything about it, the link to the free preview is in my original e-mail. I'm not saying you should start working on it right now, but it IS important and useful to prepare a version for Windows 8 soon. It's easy to say, Make a Metro version, but it's actually a really hard task to port the suite to any platform, and here we wouldn't just have to port it, but completely redesign every part of it. Just like Microsoft Office, LibreOffice will work on Windows 8, even on AMD devices if it's recompiled for the purpose. So even if we don't make a Metro version, we will still be available for all Windows 8 users. And because LibreOffice doesn't use the ribbon and allows you to make the toolbar buttons bigger, it might actually be more touch-friendly than MS Office. Right now, it makes sense just to make LibreOffice touch-friendly, not only for Windows, but also operating systems using Gnome Shell, Ubuntu, and others that are trying to target both desktop and tablet users. I don't think it would be wise to focus on Microsoft's ecosystem, the Metro part of which is actually just as closed the Apple equivalent. If we were to make a port to a platform other than Android/HTML, then it'd be nice if we focused on an open platform, perhaps webOS once it becomes fully open-source. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Let's work on color handling
Hi everyone, On today's IRC chat, we approved the idea workflow [1]. This week is going to be the call for proposals for the color handling wiki [2], so please submit or refine your proposals. The deadline for proposals is next week's IRC chat, again at 16:00 GMT on Saturday. [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/IdeaWorkflow [2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Color_Handling -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Windows 8 version?
The problem here is man power, alot of the developers on the develop list will tell you man power is the issu and i agree. if you really want this to happen i would grab it by the horns and start working on it On 4/14/12 7:30 PM, Brenden Seibel wrote: +1 On Apr 14, 2012, at 11:05 AM, Alberto Delgado wrote: I don't really think it's bad, I've been using windows 8 for a while now and it works perfectly on desktop, surprisingly, it works great even when having in mind that the system is primarily thought for tablets. I understand that working on other projects right now might damage the ongoing work, but you shouldn't set a Metro UI version aside just because you don't like it. Windows has an enormous amount of users, users that either don't like or are afraid of changing to MacOS or Linux, users that are very likely migrate to W8, also, W8 for tablets is a much more powerful OS than iOS or Android, specially when the user is using it for work (sound like your public, right?), on the other side, the PC version will be receiving a great amount of users soon enough, they won't change their mind just because it doesn't feel right for you. Whichever reason for which you don't like W8 is not enough to forget about the great amount of users the OS has. Again, take it from me, I've been using it on desktop and i can't wait to get a tablet with W8 an OS that is not as closed as Apple's and not fragmented as Google's. Try it out before saying anything about it, the link to the free preview is in my original e-mail. I'm not saying you should start working on it right now, but it IS important and useful to prepare a version for Windows 8 soon. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
