Aw: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

[Christoph Schäfer]

Errm ...

>The former palette management at Tools > Options > Color has been removed.

I haven't seen this yet, but it looks like you just removed one of the most 
significant advantages of LibreOffice.

Just sayin'...

Christoph


> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. November 2016 um 11:53 Uhr
> Von: "Heiko Tietze" 
> An: "LibreOffice Design" 
> Cc: "Mike Hall" 
> Betreff: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice
>
> Hi Mike,
> 
> I forward your message to the ML. As you may know we will have better user
> palette management in 5.3. Meaning you can add colors in the area style
> dialog to the newly introduced 'custom palette'. The former palette
> management at Tools > Options > Color has been removed. Also document
> colors will work now.
> Saying that it doesn't contradicts any of your comments.
> 
> Cheers,
> Heiko
> 
> 2016-11-16 11:13 GMT+01:00 Mike Hall :
> 
> > On 16/11/2016 08:24, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> >
> > What is your position about the default set of palettes? Should we
> > limit the number of palettes, have also a manageable size in terms of
> > <50 colors (this is a very arbitrary number), postulate elaborated
> > color names?
> >
> > As a reasonably ordinary user of colour, I've been frustrated by the
> > current limitations and look forward to the improvements in 5.3. From my
> > perspective, the number of colours in the current palette is not a problem,
> > though the naming is, being opaque and inconsistent. I want a single
> > palette that covers all my tasks, from simple wp to design and web work. A
> > basic palette of approx 40 colours won't be sufficient for that. So,
> > although I can see a case for a carefully designed default basic palette,
> > it's important for LO to ship a full palette and make it easy to select a
> > different palette from all the apps.
> > To take things a step further, are you focussing on delivering better
> > palettes or on delivering a better colour service? The latter, implying eg
> > carefully constructed documentation, is what would help to set LO apart.
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> 
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Aw: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

[Christoph Schäfer]

Hello Heiko,


Thank you very much for your quick reply.

First of all we need to make clear we are using the same terminology. Where I 
come from (graphics and publishing), a "palette" means a collection of colours 
stored in a file.

As to your statement "The ordinary user likely wants to have only one palette 
with ~20 brand colors", I'd be interested how you determined this. Did you have 
a survey? Please note that I'm not denying your assumption. I'm rather 
interested in the empirical base of it. I'm also curious about your definition 
of "brand colour". What does that mean? It can't be something like HKS or 
Pantone, since these are named colours with a unique colour value. In ODF, 
however, colours are only stored with a hex value, not as named colours, so the 
"branding" disappears once you save the file.

It's fine with me if most LibreOffice users only want to use a limited set of 
colours. We actually removed most colour palettes (i.e., colour collections) 
from the development version of Scribus and switched to offering the rest (c. 
400 palettes) for download via our new "Resource Manager". We kept CIE-HLC and 
CIE-LAB, though, simply because we support freieFarbe / freeColour and because 
we encourage our users to save money by using the inexpensive, yet extremely 
useful "LibreColour" fans.

My position on the number of colour palettes? Offer a reasonable small 
selection (of palettes, not colours per palette), including CIE-HLC, with the 
default installation of LO, and offer the rest as download option, either from 
within LO or via a plug-in. As for the number of colours per palette, I don't 
think it's a safe bet to make any assumptions. User requirements are likely to 
be varied. IMHO, LibreOffice would place itself as the Office suite of choice 
in cross-media workflows by including the CIE-HLC palette. If you don't know 
what "cross-media workflow" means, I suggest you watch an introductory video by 
my Swiss colleague Peter Jäger under 
https://com2publish.ch/lektionen/crossmedia-beratung-%E2%80%93-von-der-sachbearbeitung-bis-zum-layouter.
 I'm assuming you're a native speaker of German, based on your name, so I'm 
quite sure you'll be able to understand it. LibreOffice's position is unique 
here, because it actually allows changing the default palette and hence adjust 
to different workflow requirements, something no other Office suite I know of, 
and certainly not MS Office, can.

As to the "weekly hangout", I must admit I'm totally new to this list. What 
does it mean and where in the virtual world does it happen?


Kind regards,
Christoph

> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. November 2016 um 09:24 Uhr
> Von: "Heiko Tietze" 
> An: "Christoph Schäfer" 
> Cc: "LibreOffice Design" 
> Betreff: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice
>
> Hi Christoph,
> 
> great to see more creative people here. Me as an usability expert and
> the other regular team members are rather UX driven and do not focus
> too much on visual aspects, so having you at the list (at least, maybe
> also at our weekly hangout on Thursday) is very appreciated.
> 
> About the colors we actually have a todo item at
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards (look for
> Palette) that references the ticket
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80196 with my
> comments regarding the whole topic in comment 29.
> The ordinary user likely wants to have only one palette with ~20 brand
> colors (e.g. LibreOffice). Now it's easy to imagine that people do not
> work for just LibreOffice but also Gnome (Tango), KDE (Breeze), Web
> (HTML) etc. and need additional palettes. But it's hard to imagine how
> to deal with the 545 (luckily named) colors from the Scribus palette.
> So my proposal was/is to strip down what is not needed by the majority
> of users and provide easy means to add own
> (https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2016/11/11/additions-to-libreoffice/).
> 
> What is your position about the default set of palettes? Should we
> limit the number of palettes, have also a manageable size in terms of
> <50 colors (this is a very arbitrary number), postulate elaborated
> color names?
> 
> Cheers,
> Heiko
> 
> 2016-11-16 8:35 GMT+01:00 "Christoph Schäfer" :
> > Hi LibreOffice Design Team,
> >
> >
> > I've joined this list after some back and forth with Mike Saunders.
> >
> >
> > First of all, let me introduce myself. I'm a member of the Scribus Team and 
> > also a supporter of the German non-profit organisation freieFarbe e.V. 
> > (www.freiefarbe.de; English: www.freecolour.org). Apart from contributing 
> > to both projects, I'm also promoting Scribus and other LibreGraphics 
> > projects in talks, discussions an hands-on demonstrations in Austria, 
> > Germany and the German-speaking parts of Switzerland. My latest talks were 
> > held during the "swiss publish 

Re: [libreoffice-design] Logo/Website proposal

[D.S.]

I've been lurking on this mailing list out of curiosity for quite a while,
and I really hate for my first post to be negative, but I need to point out
that the proposed logo is the spitting image of the one used by Beats by
Dr. Dre, so it's probably not the best direction to take.

Another issue, although probably far-fetched, is the fact that Beats is
owned by Apple, and we all know how litigation-happy they are.

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[libreoffice-design] Weekly design hangout on Nov-17

[Heiko Tietze]

Hi all,

we will have our weekly meeting today (yes, Thursday) at 10am (11:00 CET). The 
agenda is:

Organization
 * Switch from Google Hangouts to Jitsi?
 * Switch from Etherpad to COOL?

Tickets
 * Inserting shapes in Draw shouldnt require multiple clicks
 * Make layout mode menu item not experimental
(both probably not yet ready to decide)
 * Rename file without having to save again as a new file

Tasks
 * LibreColor palette
   + 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/quot-LibreColour-quot-palettes-for-LibreOffice-td4200043.html
 * New logo/website
   + http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Logo-Website-proposal-td4200050.html

 * Handling of wrapping of images/object in Writer

Looking forward to see you,
Heiko





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Re: [libreoffice-design] Some empty spaces in Notebookbar in Pootle - where to find them in master?

[Thomas Hackert]

Hello Heiko, *,
On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 03:47:53PM +0100, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> Empty strings have been added to simulate space between controls
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102779. Guess this
> is what you tackle.

oh, OK. It seems
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102779#c6 hit me
(and possibly other translators) ... :(

> Feel free to contact me on IRC #libreoffice-design about translation 
> questions.

Also not design-related ones as "Marchen", "Tangut" or ... ;?
Thanks for your answer and have a nice evening
Thomas.

-- 
"Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context."

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Some empty spaces in Notebookbar in Pootle - where to find them in master?

[Heiko Tietze]

Empty strings have been added to simulate space between controls
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102779. Guess this
is what you tackle.

Feel free to contact me on IRC #libreoffice-design about translation questions.

2016-11-16 12:01 GMT+01:00 Thomas Hackert :
> Hi altogether,
> I am not subscribed to this list (sorry to the moderator and all
> others), so please CC me if you can give me some input to my
> question ... ;)
>
> I am struggling my way to the de_DE translation of LO on Pootle and
> found some really difficult to translate strings there, but hey, a
> new challenge ... ;) But what I did not find until now is the
> occurrence of an empty space (e.g.
> https://translations.documentfoundation.org/de/libo_ui/translate/sw/uiconfig/swriter/ui.po#unit=117635034
> or
> https://translations.documentfoundation.org/de/libo_ui/translate/sd/uiconfig/simpress/ui.po#unit=117632114).
>
> I did not see them in LO master. Is there any reason why these
> strings are in Pootle?
>
> OS: Debian Testing AMD64
> LO: Version: 5.3.0.0.alpha1+
> Build-ID: 0af30952982767543cddd0b1ce643cb8d5c253a2
> CPU-Threads: 4; BS-Version: Linux 4.5; UI-Render: Standard; VCL:
> gtk2; Layout Engine: new;
> TinderBox: Linux-rpm_deb-x86_64@70-TDF, Branch:master, Time:
> 2016-11-11_23:43:27
> Gebietsschema: de-DE (de_DE.UTF-8); Calc: group
> (parallel installed, following the instructions from
> Thanks for any answer
> Thomas.
>
> --
> ... bacteriological warfare ... hard to believe we were once foolish
> enough to play around with that.
> -- McCoy, "The Omega Glory", stardate unknown
>
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[libreoffice-design] Some empty spaces in Notebookbar in Pootle - where to find them in master?

[Thomas Hackert]

Hi altogether,
I am not subscribed to this list (sorry to the moderator and all
others), so please CC me if you can give me some input to my
question ... ;)

I am struggling my way to the de_DE translation of LO on Pootle and
found some really difficult to translate strings there, but hey, a
new challenge ... ;) But what I did not find until now is the
occurrence of an empty space (e.g.
https://translations.documentfoundation.org/de/libo_ui/translate/sw/uiconfig/swriter/ui.po#unit=117635034
or
https://translations.documentfoundation.org/de/libo_ui/translate/sd/uiconfig/simpress/ui.po#unit=117632114).

I did not see them in LO master. Is there any reason why these
strings are in Pootle?

OS: Debian Testing AMD64
LO: Version: 5.3.0.0.alpha1+
Build-ID: 0af30952982767543cddd0b1ce643cb8d5c253a2
CPU-Threads: 4; BS-Version: Linux 4.5; UI-Render: Standard; VCL:
gtk2; Layout Engine: new; 
TinderBox: Linux-rpm_deb-x86_64@70-TDF, Branch:master, Time:
2016-11-11_23:43:27
Gebietsschema: de-DE (de_DE.UTF-8); Calc: group
(parallel installed, following the instructions from 
Thanks for any answer
Thomas.

-- 
... bacteriological warfare ... hard to believe we were once foolish
enough to play around with that.
-- McCoy, "The Omega Glory", stardate unknown

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Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

[Heiko Tietze]

Hi Mike,

I forward your message to the ML. As you may know we will have better user
palette management in 5.3. Meaning you can add colors in the area style
dialog to the newly introduced 'custom palette'. The former palette
management at Tools > Options > Color has been removed. Also document
colors will work now.
Saying that it doesn't contradicts any of your comments.

Cheers,
Heiko

2016-11-16 11:13 GMT+01:00 Mike Hall :

> On 16/11/2016 08:24, Heiko Tietze wrote:
>
> What is your position about the default set of palettes? Should we
> limit the number of palettes, have also a manageable size in terms of
> <50 colors (this is a very arbitrary number), postulate elaborated
> color names?
>
> As a reasonably ordinary user of colour, I've been frustrated by the
> current limitations and look forward to the improvements in 5.3. From my
> perspective, the number of colours in the current palette is not a problem,
> though the naming is, being opaque and inconsistent. I want a single
> palette that covers all my tasks, from simple wp to design and web work. A
> basic palette of approx 40 colours won't be sufficient for that. So,
> although I can see a case for a carefully designed default basic palette,
> it's important for LO to ship a full palette and make it easy to select a
> different palette from all the apps.
> To take things a step further, are you focussing on delivering better
> palettes or on delivering a better colour service? The latter, implying eg
> carefully constructed documentation, is what would help to set LO apart.
> --
>
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Logo/Website proposal

[Cor Nouws]

Heiko Tietze wrote on 16-11-16 11:10:

> The idea received quite positive resonance. The logo could be used as
> a distinctive identification to TDF, and we need to check the design
> [...]
> Opinions?

Do we have a problem that people mix TDF and LibreOffice?
What could be a good reason to think of a new LibreOffice logo?
How do we plan to manage such a possible change?

ciao - Cor

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Logo/Website proposal

[Anxhelo Lushka]

Hello Heiko,

I agree. The logo proposal was really good looking and seemed to comply
with LO branding guidelines, although the website part could receive some
changes further on.

A refresh would be nice IMO, but we need more opinions on this, if it goes
through we can present it with LO 5.3 release.

On Nov 16, 2016 11:10 AM, "Heiko Tietze" 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> on the private marketing list a proposal for a new website and logo
> design circulates. Originally it was presented at
> https://www.behance.net/gallery/41702589/Libre-Office by Maxim Grekov
> (CC).
> The idea received quite positive resonance. The logo could be used as
> a distinctive identification to TDF, and we need to check the design
> against a large content (Martin Srebotnjak).
> The last update to our own logo [1] is here [2], IIRC done by
> Christoph (CC). And as far as I know it was KJ, who wanted to decide
> on a guideline first, i.e. to have a certain size for instance
> (believe the design proposal fits all demands). The task list [3]
> contains the "Visual branding guideline".
>
> Opinions?
>
> Personally, I think it makes sense to have two distinct logos, but
> those should have the same origin meaning they should look similar.
> The proposal plays with this idea very nicely. (The L part could be
> carved out a little bit).
> White on black works well on mobile devices but not on the average
> desktop. Although I configure my desktop in this way. Tough decision.
>
> [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Logo
> [2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/d/d5/LibreOffice_
> LogoImprovements2016_Ideation_IconsInclMotif.png
> [3] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards
>
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[libreoffice-design] Logo/Website proposal

[Heiko Tietze]

Hi all,

on the private marketing list a proposal for a new website and logo
design circulates. Originally it was presented at
https://www.behance.net/gallery/41702589/Libre-Office by Maxim Grekov
(CC).
The idea received quite positive resonance. The logo could be used as
a distinctive identification to TDF, and we need to check the design
against a large content (Martin Srebotnjak).
The last update to our own logo [1] is here [2], IIRC done by
Christoph (CC). And as far as I know it was KJ, who wanted to decide
on a guideline first, i.e. to have a certain size for instance
(believe the design proposal fits all demands). The task list [3]
contains the "Visual branding guideline".

Opinions?

Personally, I think it makes sense to have two distinct logos, but
those should have the same origin meaning they should look similar.
The proposal plays with this idea very nicely. (The L part could be
carved out a little bit).
White on black works well on mobile devices but not on the average
desktop. Although I configure my desktop in this way. Tough decision.

[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Logo
[2] 
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/d/d5/LibreOffice_LogoImprovements2016_Ideation_IconsInclMotif.png
[3] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards

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