Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Apr-25

2018-04-24 Thread Pedro Rosmaninho 
Yes, maybe. I replied in a hot-headed way. Fortunately Alex was a lot more
reasonable than me.

On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 11:43 PM, Franklin Weng 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 2018年4月25日 上午12:15:52 [台北], Pedro Rosmaninho 
> wrote:
> >Sorry, but why should they expect to keep the theme they know?
> >Sometimes
> >defaults change, and if people don't want their defaults to change they
> >can
> >keep on LTS versions.
> >If they're updating from an old version of software to a new one it's
> >likely that there will be changes, including in UI. If they don't read
> >release notes why are they even installing a new version of LO even?
>
> I'm not saying defaults shouldn't be changed, but I'm not going to say the
> above is the correct expectation to end users.  It's kind of RTFM thoughts
> which keeps users away from the community.
>
> --
> Franklin Weng, Member, Board of Director & Certification Commitee
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Apr-25

2018-04-24 Thread Franklin Weng 
Hi,

On 2018年4月25日 上午12:15:52 [台北], Pedro Rosmaninho  wrote:
>Sorry, but why should they expect to keep the theme they know?
>Sometimes
>defaults change, and if people don't want their defaults to change they
>can
>keep on LTS versions.
>If they're updating from an old version of software to a new one it's
>likely that there will be changes, including in UI. If they don't read
>release notes why are they even installing a new version of LO even?

I'm not saying defaults shouldn't be changed, but I'm not going to say the 
above is the correct expectation to end users.  It's kind of RTFM thoughts 
which keeps users away from the community. 

-- 
Franklin Weng, Member, Board of Director & Certification Commitee 
The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE 
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts 
Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Apr-25

2018-04-24 Thread Pedro Rosmaninho 
Ah, I understood. That's a very strong reason, that's for sure.
It's hard to learn new icons when you are visually-impaired. Do you use
Microsoft Office as well by any chance? Colibre has some similarities with
the icon theme from Microsof office (I believe it follows some of the
Windows design guidelines) so if you are familiar with those icons you will
probably manage to adapt reasonably well.

On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 5:48 PM, Alex ARNAUD  wrote:

> Le 24/04/2018 à 18:15, Pedro Rosmaninho a écrit :
>
>> Sorry, but why should they expect to keep the theme they know? Sometimes
>> defaults change, and if people don't want their defaults to change they
>> can
>> keep on LTS versions.
>> If they're updating from an old version of software to a new one it's
>> likely that there will be changes, including in UI. If they don't read
>> release notes why are they even installing a new version of LO even? If
>> the
>> information is provided that there's a new look for Libre Office I find it
>> very doubtful people will fill bugs because they don't find Tango.
>> It's a given that the default has changed.
>>
>
> Right but icons are the way to represent features so if you're accustom
> with icons, you could expect to continue to use it.
> I'm visual-impaired, if someone changes icons on the screen, I'll complain
> or try to get the old one.
> But :), I'm aware that I'm a little bit conservative because most users I
> know doesn't want to spend time to learn again a software or change their
> habits.
>
> @Heiko: What is the reason to drop Tango? Disk space?
>
> Best regards,
> Alex.
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Apr-25

2018-04-24 Thread Alex ARNAUD 

Le 24/04/2018 à 20:27, Heiko Tietze a écrit :

Missing maintenance, out-dated design, better alternatives, installation size, 
no SVG, no large sizes, 


OK, thank you very much for the clarification :).

After all, you're in the right way with this change. Even if users could 
complain about changes, they also complain about poor design.


If an extension could be installed, it could be done if needed.

Best regards,
Alex.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Apr-25

2018-04-24 Thread Heiko Tietze 
On 24.04.2018 18:48, Alex ARNAUD wrote:
> @Heiko: What is the reason to drop Tango? Disk space?

Missing maintenance, out-dated design, better alternatives, installation size, 
no SVG, no large sizes, 

Of course, we can continue to ship icon themes. And that's exactly the question 
here, ship it with core or provide per extension.


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Apr-25

2018-04-24 Thread Alex ARNAUD 

Le 24/04/2018 à 18:15, Pedro Rosmaninho a écrit :

Sorry, but why should they expect to keep the theme they know? Sometimes
defaults change, and if people don't want their defaults to change they can
keep on LTS versions.
If they're updating from an old version of software to a new one it's
likely that there will be changes, including in UI. If they don't read
release notes why are they even installing a new version of LO even? If the
information is provided that there's a new look for Libre Office I find it
very doubtful people will fill bugs because they don't find Tango.
It's a given that the default has changed.


Right but icons are the way to represent features so if you're accustom 
with icons, you could expect to continue to use it.
I'm visual-impaired, if someone changes icons on the screen, I'll 
complain or try to get the old one.
But :), I'm aware that I'm a little bit conservative because most users 
I know doesn't want to spend time to learn again a software or change 
their habits.


@Heiko: What is the reason to drop Tango? Disk space?

Best regards,
Alex.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Apr-25

2018-04-24 Thread Pedro Rosmaninho 
Sorry, but why should they expect to keep the theme they know? Sometimes
defaults change, and if people don't want their defaults to change they can
keep on LTS versions.
If they're updating from an old version of software to a new one it's
likely that there will be changes, including in UI. If they don't read
release notes why are they even installing a new version of LO even? If the
information is provided that there's a new look for Libre Office I find it
very doubtful people will fill bugs because they don't find Tango.
It's a given that the default has changed.

On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Alex ARNAUD  wrote:

> Le 24/04/2018 à 13:43, Heiko Tietze a écrit :
>
>> + tbd: the future of Tango, Tango_testing, Industrial, Galaxy, and
>> Crystal
>>   + please file tickets to remove these themes (or rather make it an
>> extension)
>>
>
> Hello Heiko :),
>
> On my LibreOffice 4.2, Tango is the current default icon theme so people
> that upgrade from old version could expect to keep the theme they know. I
> don't think making extension it's a simple way to add theme because if
> Tango is shipped insides a release and not inside another, the reactions
> could be:
> - Ah, LibreOffice Has dropped those themes
> - Ah, there is a bug to fill because I no longer find Tango
>
> I don't see any mental way to think theme has been moved to extension
> except for those that read release notes.
>
> Best regards,
> Alex.
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Apr-25

2018-04-24 Thread Alex ARNAUD 

Le 24/04/2018 à 13:43, Heiko Tietze a écrit :

+ tbd: the future of Tango, Tango_testing, Industrial, Galaxy, and Crystal
  + please file tickets to remove these themes (or rather make it an 
extension)


Hello Heiko :),

On my LibreOffice 4.2, Tango is the current default icon theme so people 
that upgrade from old version could expect to keep the theme they know. 
I don't think making extension it's a simple way to add theme because if 
Tango is shipped insides a release and not inside another, the reactions 
could be:

- Ah, LibreOffice Has dropped those themes
- Ah, there is a bug to fill because I no longer find Tango

I don't see any mental way to think theme has been moved to extension 
except for those that read release notes.


Best regards,
Alex.

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[libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Apr-25

2018-04-24 Thread Heiko Tietze 
Hello world,

here is the agenda for the weekly meeting tomorrow:

 * UI for Nested styles
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311
   + mockup attached, comments welcome

 * Bring back Format > Columns in Writer
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115344
   + https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/53217/

 * In Impress UI scroll bars are active beyond the extent of the slide
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117009

 * Shapes deck fill the whole sidebar / make it non-experimental
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117186

 * Opening The Same Document Twice As Read Only With Command Line Switch
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116827
   + WF- niche request, limited use-case, workaround existing (Heiko)


 * Icon themes
   + https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/2596
   + tbd: the future of Tango, Tango_testing, Industrial, Galaxy, and Crystal
 + please file tickets to remove these themes (or rather make it an 
extension)
   + Update the fallback strategy and replace Galaxy by Colibre
 + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116696
 + Patch at https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/53092

Full pad is here https://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/design

Hope to see you tomorrow 6pm UTC (20:00 CEST) on Jitsi
https://meet.jit.si/LibreOfficeDesign

Cheers,
Heiko




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