Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LO Writer UI Analysis
On 02/02/2013 05:41 AM, Heiko Tietze wrote: Jay Lozier wrote I did not know the shortcut. IMHO your point is that very few if any users will know all the keyboard shortcuts though they will know many of them and the ones they do know are the ones they find the most useful. Absolutely. Additionally I try to point out that expertise is a somewhat ambiguous concept. Nevertheless, one should not omit those questions from any survey... In respect of Thibaut's proposal: copy/paste are well known as Ctrl+C/V even to novices but, to anticipate more results from our icon test, the icons are confused with each other. Should that lead to a decision to remove these buttons completely? I don't think so, and neither Thibaut do I guess. In my opinion, all decisions to change something should be discussed in detail and based on data. It should be documented and referenced later. IMHO what happened s is someone, about 30 years ago or more decided on a particular set of buttons and shortcuts to use with a GUI and it became the default. The problem is not the default is bad but we should carefully consider appropriate modifications to enhance the user experience. Many of the defaults were first used on early Mac's from the mid 80's - I was a Mac user then. Moving forward the basic design and often button selections were only modified to add new features such as spell and grammar checking. The first word processing programs (often) did not have this . And when it came out (Word Perfect?); it was a big improvement. The original research on GUI designs was done in the 70's and it was focused on making computers more intuitive for users. I doubt the researchers would have considered their ideas the final word on the subject. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LO-Writer-UI-Analysis-tp4032977p4033881.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LO Writer UI Analysis
On 02/01/2013 03:00 PM, Heiko Tietze wrote: Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote Power users don't prefer toolbars: they prefer keyboard shortcuts... My conclusion is that no decision should be drawn based on guessing and personal preferences. It is not that simple with just age and expertise. For instance, even regular, highly experienced users of Writer that utilize keyboard shortcuts don't know the shortcut to show non-printing characters. Or do you? Treat this just as testable hypothesis. I did not know the shortcut. IMHO your point is that very few if any users will know all the keyboard shortcuts though they will know many of them and the ones they do know are the ones they find the most useful. Also, power users tend to modify the shortcut assignments and toolbars to make them more useful while occasional users will probably do neither. Occasional users are more dependent on menus. PS: With power users I meant those that use a particular program to a higher extend than other. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LO-Writer-UI-Analysis-tp4032977p4033787.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: LO Writer UI Analysis
On 01/31/2013 04:08 PM, Heiko Tietze wrote: Wolfgang Keller wrote MS has always been at the antipode of ergonomics. And they keep moving in the *wrong* direction. Ribbons ... are just the latest cerebral flatulances emanating from their product managers' brains. Lol! BTW: The younger (LO) users are the more they accept Ribbons [1]. Ribbon controls intend to show all at once, as Astron says. Additionally, MS wants to get rid of the main menu for touch screen use. The trade-off is that some, seldom used function were menuized, ie. placed into pulldown controls. But those menus thwart the idea of a toolbar: fast access to a few functions. The idea behind is nevertheless worth to discuss, but for the purpose of strategical decisions (where LO wants to go) and not singular improvements (simpler toolbar). [1] http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-user-research-results-vol-4/ A question about ribbons - Is there any data differentiating the type of user and their preferences? My thought is that users who heavily use software may prefer menus over ribbons while those who do not use the software much prefer ribbons. And this general trend would true for all types of software. The age may be skewing the results and including more casual users in the younger cohort. The 50+ users did not grow up with computers and many of these casual users do not like to use computers at all and probably would never use anything they did not use at work (eg Windows and MS Office). I find the personality of the user vs ribbon or menu interesting. Wolfgang Keller wrote It has been proven over and over again that separator lines do *NOT* separate. They effectively do the *opposite*, besides adding elements that are just confusing for the eyes. Please prove this statement. At least separator's appearance should be defined by the theme. Stefan Knorr (Astron)-2 wrote I have uploaded the file to http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87946285/libreoffice/OOo31_Usage_Feedback_Data.ods Thanks a lot! -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LO-Writer-UI-Analysis-tp4032977p4033574.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LO Writer UI Analysis
- in contrary it clutters the UI. 2b - I think you already know it, but again: LibreOffice needs a new icon set because the current set is hard to differentiate and looks - my personal opinion - outdated. 3. Lines in the UI = I visualized the lines that structure the UI but are not part of any button. Image: http://ubuntuone.com/75eM3Kex30qhLqshd0oswK As you can see, there are a lot of lines. ### Proposed Solution ### 3a - Remove the line beneath each toolbar. This would remove clutter and give the UI a more settled character. 3b - Remove as many unnecessary lines as possible to further clean up the UI. 4. Summary = I've combined all images to give a better impression of the current UI state. Image without blur: http://ubuntuone.com/2GbweFTlHiYJQjpxa6atVf Image with blur: http://ubuntuone.com/3vsf5conkUeIebI59h6pVM The blur image is interesting because it visualizes nicely what a users sees if he looks at Writer. He sees a lot of UI elements and a lot of lines - everything seems pretty cluttered. The important parts are recognizable but there is huge space for improvement. To improve the UX I suggest to: * Remove or hide less used features * Drastically reduce the lines in the UI to make it clearer * New icons Most of the suggested changes could probably be made without changing much code, it's more about having other toolbar defaults in Writer before we see in future a UI redesign. I suggest to improve the UX by using existing widgets. A clean UI -- easier-to-find program functionality -- happier users -- good for LibreOffice Hope I could help a bit and that the provided information is useful to you. Regards Thibaut Hi, In general I agree that some of the buttons are used less frequently and that many users may not realize what they do. Parallel to your ideas is are there buttons that should be displayed that currently are not displayed? For example Close is one button I like to have on my tool bar. Cleaning up and deleting rarely used buttons and replacing them with more useful ones is a good topic to explore. I suspect there will some disagreement about which buttons are relatively useless and should be replaced, personally I would keep the table button. I think the typical button layout borrows heavily from earlier programs from as far back as the 80's and buttons these programs displayed. Truthfully, I do not know how much good research has been done on this topic or even if there really was any research done in the beginning. Typically I will add buttons I want to the tool bars, rarely will I delete any of the default buttons. Also, I prefer using the small size because I can have more buttons displayed on the tool bar (possibly another topic). A related topic, are there tool bars that are unnecessary because the buttons are already available on another tool bar. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] LO Writer UI Analysis
On 01/29/2013 05:49 PM, Thibaut Brandscheid wrote: On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:58 PM, Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com mailto:jsloz...@gmail.com wrote: In general I agree that some of the buttons are used less frequently and that many users may not realize what they do. Parallel to your ideas is are there buttons that should be displayed that currently are not displayed? I don't think right now that any toolbar button should be added, but maybe some functionality. It would be nice if there was a way to easily create a table of contents (currently much too hidden in the menus) - could be added to the 'Apply Style' menu at the bottom. Adding page numbers to the footer or header is to complicated too. Do you write lengthy documents? I ask because these seem to be issues when someone is writing large document. Another item is inserting footnotes/endnotes. For example Close is one button I like to have on my tool bar. Cleaning up and deleting rarely used buttons and replacing them with more useful ones is a good topic to explore. I suspect there will some disagreement about which buttons are relatively useless and should be replaced, personally I would keep the table button. Writer has currently too many buttons and therefore they should be dramatic reduced. One or two new icons would be IMHO okay, but don't refill the whole cleaned-up space. I think the typical button layout borrows heavily from earlier programs from as far back as the 80's and buttons these programs displayed. Truthfully, I do not know how much good research has been done on this topic or even if there really was any research done in the beginning. o0 Typically I will add buttons I want to the tool bars, rarely will I delete any of the default buttons. Also, I prefer using the small size because I can have more buttons displayed on the tool bar (possibly another topic). Reducing the icon size more than a few pixels is a no-go, there are hell of a lot of people out there having problems to target small UI elements - http://goo.gl/6Lqvh If the option to change the button size is available I think the default size is probably suitable for most. Regards Thibaut -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] export HTML
On 11/04/2012 04:14 PM, Rob Snelders wrote: Hi all, The export-option in the options-dialog - Load/Save - HTML-compatibility states that you can save for LibreOffice Writer, Internet Explorer and Netscape Navigator. Looking at the code that states Netscape 4-compatibility. But has this still any value? As the browsers are for basic HTML compatible for some years. I think that the Netscape output also works in Internet Explorer. If it still has value then the name netscape navigator should change as less and less people know what Netscape is. This bug triggerd the question: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56726 -- Greetings, Rob Snelders Rob, From the few times I exported as html, I noticed the html produced appeared to be fairly standard html 4.01. The main problem I noticed is that all the styles are embedded in the html. Note, I believe this is legal html, if now considered bad practice The export modules do not produce a CSS page. This makes the resulting html, IMHO, very difficult to maintain. You can check your html at http://validator.w3.org/ I find I prefer to save the text as txt file then cut and then directly create the html page(s) and CSS pages I need. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] I'm sorry.
Andrew, Get healthy, good luck and hope to here from you when you are better. Sorry to hear about your addiction problems Jay On 07/02/2012 11:54 PM, Andrew Pullins wrote: Hello everyone, I'm sorry that I have not been as active as in the past. I have not been here that often partly because I'm losing some interest in the changing of the UI and some parker the growing interest of the community. I kinda feel as though you do not need me as much as you once did. The other much bigger reason I have not been around is that I'm struggling an addiction of sorts though many would not call it that it still is an addiction, and I NEED TO STOP. I'm just hurting my God and my future wife, so if you a re e at all a man or woman of faith I ask that you please pray for me as it will be hard to stop. I wanted you to know why I have not been here and why I won't be for some time. So for the next 8 to 16 weeks, I have not decided, you will not see me for I will be working on pretty much nothing but quiting. I do plan on returning and hope to help out more in the future, but for now. bye, Andrew -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Think, don't just do - WAS: Impress remote
On 05/09/2012 07:14 AM, Mirek M. wrote: Hi Bjorn, 2012/5/9 Björn Balazsb...@lazs.de Hi all, just a short additional note - a more detailed answer will follow in the next days: Please do not mix up user testing user research. :D funny, I was convinced this whole time that you were talking about user testing oh well... RESEARCH is about understanding (and creating artifacts accordingly) who the users are, what they (want to) use the product for, what goals they want to reach, what criteria apply to a successfull interaction, what prior experience they have, where they will use the tool, This can perfectly be done in distributed teams using web tools. We can reach users all over the world. Past experience in Libre Office has shown that it is easy to get feedback from more than 1 actual users within days. And these were just first tries... What tools do you suggest to use? Should every project we work on be preceded by a survey on the topic? It probably depends on the project. Some should be discussed on the list before asking user opinions. This partly to avoid survey fatigue and partly to allow us to think through the ideas before asking for user opinions. Other ideas may be generated by asking the users what they think should be done. TESTING is about presenting users with possible solutions, and watching how they solve given tasks. This usually is extremely difficult to do with voluntary development teams, as you would need test rooms, local, but still representative - perhaps even paid - participants etc. There might be some room for this on fairs or similar events, but I would rather not be too enthusiastic about testing. In my experience the value of testing is over estimated. Most user tests actually do post-hoc research. And the other way around, I found that tests following projects that did decent research did not reveal any significant new insights. I'd still like to do user testing if we could. I'm not sure if we'd need special test rooms with local participants. Actually, I think just seeing how people use the software would help, and that could be done simply by people videotaping their friends/relatives according to some directions we give them and putting the videos up on YouTube. It wouldn't be the most professional thing to do, but it would undoubtedly help us understand our users more, more than surveys or usage tracking extensions. It might be especially interesting to watch how users coming from Office or iWork work with our UI. (I guess that still falls under the umbrella of user research, though.) IMHO, the basic problem with user testing is that most users do not use any software package at optimum efficiency. They have a method that works well for their needs that is not the fastest or easiest method available. Summing it up: Lets do extensive user research - both because in Free Software we simply will never be in the situation to do extensive testing and because it is the more sustainable anyhow. As a sidenote: icons are something that can actually be user tested easily via the web, here research rather does not help that much in contrast. These different ways that are appropriate to reach our goals are part of the experience I would like to share with this group. This also is one of the reasons I do not think we need a standard workflow the way it is defined at the moment, but standard artefacts (see above), that need to be used in smart ways to reach the different goals we have. I agree that we need some standard artefacts, but I disagree we should let go of our workflow. While it isn't perfect by any measure, it seems to be a step in the right direction. I've been subscribed to this list for about two years now, maybe longer, and I've been sorely missing a standard way of working. It seemed that developers weren't really interested in the design team, whiteboards were a mess of unfinished ideas that could never be carried out to completion, any sort of UI work was fruitless, and we weren't really collaborating -- everyone (including me) was doing his/her own thing. I'm afraid that if we didn't have any sort of defined workflow, we'd revert back to the chaos that came before, even with the various artefacts defined. If you have a suggestion for a better workflow, please do voice your opinion. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposed Idea Workflow
On 04/14/2012 09:50 AM, Mirek M. wrote: Please take a look at my proposal for our idea workflow and tell me what you think: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Proposed%20Idea%20Workflow +1 from a very occasional contributor. It should help us to close proposals instead of having them linger and never quite get finished. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Updated Whiteboard template with more instructional text
, which is what our HIG should become. I think the content of these is self-explanatory if you present examples of this content. Again, I'd prefer to keep the whiteboard template looking like a whiteboard. (The Tentative Design section hasn't been designed yet, that's why it uses descriptive text.) So... * Terminology – it's an extra definition, I think it doesn't hurt. It doesn't, but Definition of Terms seems a better fit as it's self-explanatory. Also, for me, terminology implies only advanced/technical terms, whereas the section can also hold common terms that aren't clearly defined or can have several definitions. * Bugs – can be a hard-to-understand term for less technical people. Put it in the Definition of Terms section, then. * Personas – this definitely needs an explanation (we've had a few design team members who didn't know what to make of it at first). Again, put it in the Definition of Terms section. * Relevant Art – we might get away without the text, I guess. Regards, Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Wanted! Moderators for this mailing list :-)
On 03/20/2012 05:09 PM, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi Mirek, Kévin, Jay! Wow, thanks a lot for your really quick (and positive) replies concerning the moderator question. Since you three answered mostly independently, I'll answer commenting my own mail ... :-) Personally, I think having three moderators in total is very fine for this kind of list (medium volume). One of the reasons is, that every moderator will be noticed about pending mails ... so work might be doubled in rare cases. So I propose (please object if you think that is wrong) to add Mirek and Kévin (being the first two who replied). Jay, thanks a lot for your offer as well! The next steps are: I will send a mail with your names attached to the moderator list. One one the admins will take care that you get added - then you will get mails from the mailing list system containing the message of the (unsubscribed) poster. If everything is clean (subject, poster address, content - if readable - because there are sometimes strange encoding issues) then you reply to this mail to let it go through. It would also be helpful to send a mail to the poster to tell him that he isn't subscribed - so he won't notice any replies to his mail (because these will go to the mailing list only). Furthermore, you'll get added to the internal moderators list. Very rarely, it is meant to inform you about updates / or you might get in touch with other moderators. Again, thanks for joining! Christoph You're welcome, glad to help! Am Donnerstag, den 15.03.2012, 21:40 +0100 schrieb Christoph Noack: Hi everyone, I'm currently too lazy to send mails to this list, but others are not (and this is great to see) ;-) As a consequence, it happens that non-subscribed posters do send mails to this list - those mails need to wait in the moderation queue. Since I've noticed that I'm not on my computer every day, help for the moderation stuff is highly appreciated. After Bernhard left, I'm the only one moderating those mails ... and therefore some kind of single point-of-failure. So is there anybody willing to jump in as well? I think one or two people joining would be cool! Currently we have approx. 5 ... 10 mails / week - so no worry about the workload. Quite the opposite - if mails get through quicker and posters are informed earlier about the required subscription, it really eases communication. And moderating is rather simple - the mailing list system sends a mail and asks for a reply. If send, it gets through, and if you don't reply, then ... okay you've got the point. Thanks! Cheers, Christoph -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Wanted! Moderators for this mailing list :-)
Christoph On 03/15/2012 04:40 PM, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi everyone, I'm currently too lazy to send mails to this list, but others are not (and this is great to see) ;-) As a consequence, it happens that non-subscribed posters do send mails to this list - those mails need to wait in the moderation queue. Since I've noticed that I'm not on my computer every day, help for the moderation stuff is highly appreciated. After Bernhard left, I'm the only one moderating those mails ... and therefore some kind of single point-of-failure. So is there anybody willing to jump in as well? I think one or two people joining would be cool! Currently we have approx. 5 ... 10 mails / week - so no worry about the workload. Quite the opposite - if mails get through quicker and posters are informed earlier about the required subscription, it really eases communication. And moderating is rather simple - the mailing list system sends a mail and asks for a reply. If send, it gets through, and if you don't reply, then ... okay you've got the point. Thanks! Cheers, Christoph While I am not very active on the list. I am on my computer daily and monitor the list. I am in Georgia, USA, about 6 hours behind Germany. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Feedback on Citrus.
On 11/25/2011 01:19 PM, Greg wrote: I don't want to rain on your parade but (as a UX practitioner of 20 yrs), surveys are almost the least effective means to validate a UI design, especially if UI behaviour is included in the investigation. A dozen face to face interviews supported by static or even active prototypes, conducted with a variety of users would yield much more useful and reliable results. If you want to pat yourself on the back and tell everyone that 9 out of 10 users prefer the new LibreButtonOMatic, then a survey will give you that but whether 9 out of 10 users actually do will be unrelated to that statistic. Surely the UXers in the team know people who use these type of products (in fact a sprinkling of users of competitive products would add value). I'd be happy to work with other UXers to plan the investigation and conduct a couple of structured interviews. Regards, Noh The problem for us is how to get any user input. The problem we have is logistical, how are the interviews conducted. Completely agree :) Alex On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 09:38:22 +0100 Charles-H. Schulz lt;charles.sch...@documentfoundation.orggt; wrote A survey would be a great idea; in fact, it would help with asking ourselves the right question for the spec; in short, it would be a real work of User Experience. Even better news: I think Christoph Noack and Bjoern Balazs know just how to set up such a survey, but I might be perhaps too optimistic :-) Best, Charles. On 25/11/2011 00:00, Kévin PEIGNOT wrote: gt; Maybe we could publish a survey asking, for each part of Citrus UI gt; (explained in a few word) what people think about it ? As we did with ourgt; first survey ? gt; gt; On each page a part of the survey, with a brief summary and if possible agt; mockup. And why not at the end asking a global impression note. It's notgt; spec, but it permit to know what people think of the globals ideas ?gt; gt; Kévin gt; gt; 2011/11/24 Andrew Pullinslt;android2...@gmail.comgt; gt; gt;gt; Charles, Kevin, every one, gt;gt; gt;gt; gt;gt;gt; Citrus looks good. But as we explained, if there's no one wrtinggt;gt;gt; specicications for eaxh part of citrus nothing will get done.gt;gt;gt; gt;gt; gt;gt; ok yes we do need to start on some specifications so that we can getgt;gt; started, but we have not talked about it all that much. first we needgt;gt; to decide on what we all agree on and change what we do not. if we get moregt;gt; people to agree with some things I would start some specifications, but Igt;gt; still don't know exactly what is needed to write one. could someone write agt;gt; templet on what needs to be written. that would really help. till thengt;gt; there are still some people that have not said what they do not like aboutgt;gt; Citrus. if you wait any longer we'er going to have to just go with Citrus. gt;gt; gt;gt; It looks like we need to blog so that people don't get their hopes up. :-/gt;gt; gt;gt; gt;gt; all the more reason to get this started NOW. and before you guys say it ONEgt;gt; MORE TIME. I know that we can not get this done in one shot, and that wegt;gt; need to do this ONE STEP AT A TIME. but now that we have some press on thisgt;gt; and people know that we are working on this we NEED to get things rolling.gt;gt; gt;gt; Andrew gt;gt; gt;gt; -- gt;gt; Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.orggt;gt; Problems? gt;gt; http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ gt;gt; Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquettegt;gt; List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/gt;gt; All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot begt;gt; deleted gt;gt; gt;gt; gt; -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
