Re: [libreoffice-design] All at once?
Hello all I wanted to address two questions because I think they're important. One will make some grit their teeth and the other will hopefully help to understand how things work inside the LibreOffice project and in other FOSS projects as well. * The notion that somehow we should just redesign the whole suite and in two releases we would get a beta obviously shows that someone does not even take the time to read what others actually wrote on this list, and then asking what a specification is also tends to point out that while opinions can be shared, they won't all be helpful. In Free Software (but this could be applied to several other fields as well) people contribute their time according to their abilities and skills. Some are developers and develop code. Some others test the software through various processes for quality assurance. Some others work in the infrastructure (website mirrors, etc.) Some others write documentation, while others localize (translate) the software. For some projects (not all), there are marketing people who write press releases, do market research, etc. And there are as well designers and User Experience people; the former contribtue designs (generally it's the logo, or help with the website, etc.) and when it comes to the User Experience (UX for short) they study the whole usability of the software and then propose changes. The way they propose changes is by describing in full detail the change in question in a document called a specification. The reason they do this is that they want to document what they actually want so that others -the developers, the localizers, the documentation writers, sometimes the QA people and even the marketing team- can understand what they mean. The people who will be the most interested by the document will be the developers because you can show lots of pictures to a developer he's going to need a heck of a guidance to assess what is to be exactly done. If you don't have a spec, your wishes simply will not even be ignored; it will be like talking a foreign language no one in the room is able to understand. Thus, anyone who thinks we just have to do it instead of bickering is not just wrong, he's also lacking respect to the actual UX people trying to write specifications and to the developers. Unless someone's here a genius who has gotten exactly what the two Alex, Mirek, Kevin and others want and is able to code these changes right away, things will not be working just like that. If you want to code, go ahead and pull the git. If you want to work on design, go ahead, join the team and work with us. If you're just here for the sake of voicing your opinion then please be aware that this is a specialized mailing list; discuss@documentfoundation is much better suited to your needs. * There was the question of volunteers/money. It's an important, yet a tricky one sometimes. It was pointed out before that we're all volunteers; that's for a great part true. Some of our most active developers are actually employed by various companies (check our sponsors) for what they do. In any case, the need has been seen, in some cases, that having volunteers to work on specific tasks and projects might actually not be enough, as these volunteers also have a day job. If they're skilled and knowledgeable enough and that the task at hand is daunting, you want to get the job done in a consistent way; or to put it simply: it'll go easier if some people just could stop wondering how to pay their bills and eat so that they can dedicate their full time to the job here.So sometimes, you can propose to raise funds for a specific task and pay a certain number of people (actually in FOSS projects it's developers 99% of the time) to complete one or several specific tasks. The whole point is that it's meant to be temporary and exceptional (otherwise it could be argued you simply need more volunteers). I hope it's helpful... Best, Charles. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] All at once?
where whould the money go??? I mean we all do this for free. who gets paid or what would the money go to. its somthing that I have wondered about donating to open source projects. id be glad to donate to some of them but there are so many people working on this thing, where would it go. I do not know. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] All at once?
Hi All, About the radical change of the UI toward a more efficient toolkit, you might be interested in reading Michael Meeks' presentation for OOocon2008 Layout: towards a pretty UI http://marketing.openoffice.org/ooocon2008/programme/friday_1470.pdf I don't know if the technical side is still relevant, but the approach still stands IMHO. Camille On 09/12/2011 05:11, Andrew Pullins wrote: sean I know that the main UI devs are against sudden change to the UI, but there are somethings like this idea of changing toolkits for at least the gui side of things that DO need to be discussed sooner rather than later and it would certainly be easier to test new ui features and ideas by writing them straight into the new UI rather than have them in the old one. why is a sudden UI change a bad thing. I know that we can not just implement Citrus in one release but if we could why would it be such a bad thing to do. was M$ Office changing there UI to their new ribbon UI that big a deal. people are going to have to get used to it one way or another. whether they get it one peace at a timetechnical side like most FOSS people will, we just change it on them all at once, or if they change from M$O to LO. again not to say that we could, would or should do this. we just need to get away from the 16 year or so old UI and make something new. and besides its not like the Citrus UI is all that different from the current one. it is very intuitive, just a little different. I mean what could possibly be under the page menu... could it be things related to page... the only thing that you need to get used to is the changing of the UI. but once you relies that there is no longer any text options because you have selected an image, and if you where to go back to a area in which you can start typing they come back, it should all make seance. and if you think that is strange and you have a M$ Office just go into word and make a table. you will see a table tools, with new design and lay out suddenly appear. they released that there are some tools that you do not need all the time, and should only appear when you do. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] All at once?
Really guys, come on. Just implement the Citrus UI, in like the next 2 releases you can release a beta of it. If you just keep bickering about it, it is never going to happen. On Dec 10, 2011, at 12:59 PM, Camille Moulin camille.mou...@free.fr wrote: Hi All, About the radical change of the UI toward a more efficient toolkit, you might be interested in reading Michael Meeks' presentation for OOocon2008 Layout: towards a pretty UI http://marketing.openoffice.org/ooocon2008/programme/friday_1470.pdf I don't know if the technical side is still relevant, but the approach still stands IMHO. Camille On 09/12/2011 05:11, Andrew Pullins wrote: sean I know that the main UI devs are against sudden change to the UI, but there are somethings like this idea of changing toolkits for at least the gui side of things that DO need to be discussed sooner rather than later and it would certainly be easier to test new ui features and ideas by writing them straight into the new UI rather than have them in the old one. why is a sudden UI change a bad thing. I know that we can not just implement Citrus in one release but if we could why would it be such a bad thing to do. was M$ Office changing there UI to their new ribbon UI that big a deal. people are going to have to get used to it one way or another. whether they get it one peace at a timetechnical side like most FOSS people will, we just change it on them all at once, or if they change from M$O to LO. again not to say that we could, would or should do this. we just need to get away from the 16 year or so old UI and make something new. and besides its not like the Citrus UI is all that different from the current one. it is very intuitive, just a little different. I mean what could possibly be under the page menu... could it be things related to page... the only thing that you need to get used to is the changing of the UI. but once you relies that there is no longer any text options because you have selected an image, and if you where to go back to a area in which you can start typing they come back, it should all make seance. and if you think that is strange and you have a M$ Office just go into word and make a table. you will see a table tools, with new design and lay out suddenly appear. they released that there are some tools that you do not need all the time, and should only appear when you do. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] All at once?
Really guys, come on. Just implement the Citrus UI, in like the next 2 releases you can release a beta of it. If you just keep bickering about it, it is never going to happen. Do you think you could even completely spec the Citrus UI in 2 release cycles? Because again, NOTHING will be implemented without specs. August Sodora aug...@gmail.com (201) 280-8138 On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Rushir Parikh rush...@gmail.com wrote: Really guys, come on. Just implement the Citrus UI, in like the next 2 releases you can release a beta of it. If you just keep bickering about it, it is never going to happen. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] All at once?
What do you mean by spec? (I'm 14 :P, I just know design not terms) ~Rushir On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 2:56 PM, August Sodora aug...@gmail.com wrote: Really guys, come on. Just implement the Citrus UI, in like the next 2 releases you can release a beta of it. If you just keep bickering about it, it is never going to happen. Do you think you could even completely spec the Citrus UI in 2 release cycles? Because again, NOTHING will be implemented without specs. August Sodora aug...@gmail.com (201) 280-8138 On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Rushir Parikh rush...@gmail.com wrote: Really guys, come on. Just implement the Citrus UI, in like the next 2 releases you can release a beta of it. If you just keep bickering about it, it is never going to happen. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] All at once?
here are some examples of specs (I think) for two parts of ubuntu : notification system : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD Other ubuntu examples : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategorySpec I hope it can help. Then, I think we should find other specs examples (gnome, kde, firefox ?) Maybe then do a sort of spec template ? I wish I had the time to write one about a Citrus UI part that I would love to see implemented. Kévin 2011/12/10 Rushir Parikh rush...@gmail.com What do you mean by spec? (I'm 14 :P, I just know design not terms) ~Rushir On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 2:56 PM, August Sodora aug...@gmail.com wrote: Really guys, come on. Just implement the Citrus UI, in like the next 2 releases you can release a beta of it. If you just keep bickering about it, it is never going to happen. Do you think you could even completely spec the Citrus UI in 2 release cycles? Because again, NOTHING will be implemented without specs. August Sodora aug...@gmail.com (201) 280-8138 On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Rushir Parikh rush...@gmail.com wrote: Really guys, come on. Just implement the Citrus UI, in like the next 2 releases you can release a beta of it. If you just keep bickering about it, it is never going to happen. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] All at once?
No problem. By spec I mean specification, that is a at least a wireframe and behavioral description of some component. The page http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards contains links to a bunch, some more complete than others. The idea is that as specifications are created, developers will implement them and we can iteratively work to approach some desired future. August Sodora aug...@gmail.com (201) 280-8138 On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Rushir Parikh rush...@gmail.com wrote: What do you mean by spec? (I'm 14 :P, I just know design not terms) ~Rushir On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 2:56 PM, August Sodora aug...@gmail.com wrote: Really guys, come on. Just implement the Citrus UI, in like the next 2 releases you can release a beta of it. If you just keep bickering about it, it is never going to happen. Do you think you could even completely spec the Citrus UI in 2 release cycles? Because again, NOTHING will be implemented without specs. August Sodora aug...@gmail.com (201) 280-8138 On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Rushir Parikh rush...@gmail.com wrote: Really guys, come on. Just implement the Citrus UI, in like the next 2 releases you can release a beta of it. If you just keep bickering about it, it is never going to happen. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] All at once?
Hello Andrew, Le jeudi 08 décembre 2011 à 23:11 -0500, Andrew Pullins a écrit : sean I know that the main UI devs are against sudden change to the UI, but there are somethings like this idea of changing toolkits for at least the gui side of things that DO need to be discussed sooner rather than later and it would certainly be easier to test new ui features and ideas by writing them straight into the new UI rather than have them in the old one. why is a sudden UI change a bad thing. Not a bad thing imho, but rather not materially doable. However if you found oil in your garden and you can pay a hundred of devs, let us know :-) I know that we can not just implement Citrus in one release but if we could why would it be such a bad thing to do. If we could? If I could I'd be pooping butterflies, but it turns out I can't. Again, let's focus on what we can do, not what we could do if... was M$ Office changing there UI to their new ribbon UI that big a deal. people are going to have to get used to it one way or another. whether they get it one peace at a time like most FOSS people will, Sorry, what does this even mean? we just change it on them all at once, or if they change from M$O to LO. again not to say that we could, would or should do this. we just need to get away from the 16 year or so old UI and make something new. So, that is something *everyone* (even me!) agrees with. When we say we can't it does not mean we don't want to. It means we can't. The LibreOffice code is not just very big, it is also aging and very complex. You can talk about how good it will be in the 4.0, but the truth is, nobody knows how it will be. If you change one piece of code it tends to affect twenty different other pieces of code, and therefore that's what makes it so complex. Besides that, while there are many developers out there, we don't have enough of them to take 10 million lines of code and turn that into something better all at once. Hence it's not bad will, it does rather come down to several factors: - write UI specifications - make sure there are palatable for inclusion (don't write spec for a spaceship) - make sure these UI specifications are for the most part implementable within the existing UI (no complete rewrite) as it would mean a much bigger code replacement than what we are able to do. and besides its not like the Citrus UI is all that different from the current one. it is very intuitive, just a little different. I mean what could possibly be under the page menu... could it be things related to page... the only thing that you need to get used to is the changing of the UI. but once you relies that there is no longer any text options because you have selected an image, and if you where to go back to a area in which you can start typing they come back, it should all make seance. and if you think that is strange and you have a M$ Office just go into word and make a table. you will see a table tools, with new design and lay out suddenly appear. they released that there are some tools that you do not need all the time, and should only appear when you do. I don't doubt this, Andrew. I thus have a proposal for you: let's take the Citrus menu bar. Can you see how it could be implemented in the existing UI? Perhaps this could be a workable starting point? best, Charles. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] All at once?
hi all while we are talking about money: how much money would we need to get the new UI done in, let's say, 2 years? i think there are are many people out there who would donate a lot of money if they knew they'd get a new UI anytime soon. we could, for example, start a kickstarter campaign and raise money with one clear goal, such as: a new UI in 2013 (example). of course, the changes to the UI could be done gradually as mirek said several times and some functions could be available earlier, but having a clear goal would certainly change the way people look at the issue. from the experiences other free software projects have had, i'd say it would be possible to raise 200k or similar with such a campaign, if there was enough media coverage. additionally we could also look for sponsors (companies, governments, etc) to raise some of the money. what do you think? tobias -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] All at once?
Tobias, My own estimate would rather be north of 500k. But that's just me. If you have a serious proposal and the full specs for citrus you could propose this to the BoD. Best, Charles. Le 9 déc. 2011 21:32, Tobias Bernard berto...@gmail.com a écrit : hi all while we are talking about money: how much money would we need to get the new UI done in, let's say, 2 years? i think there are are many people out there who would donate a lot of money if they knew they'd get a new UI anytime soon. we could, for example, start a kickstarter campaign and raise money with one clear goal, such as: a new UI in 2013 (example). of course, the changes to the UI could be done gradually as mirek said several times and some functions could be available earlier, but having a clear goal would certainly change the way people look at the issue. from the experiences other free software projects have had, i'd say it would be possible to raise 200k or similar with such a campaign, if there was enough media coverage. additionally we could also look for sponsors (companies, governments, etc) to raise some of the money. what do you think? tobias -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
