Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
Hi Bernhard, all,
On 6/4/2011 7:56 PM, Ivan M. wrote:
Hi Bernhard, all,
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Bernhard Dippold
bernh...@familie-dippold.at wrote:
[...]
Conclusion --
Work might become easier and less distractive, if someone would focus on
structure, orientation and organization of the design team, while all the
others can focus on designing.
All of you know me as someone with high interest in collaborative work and
concordant decision making. I took care of the members of the OOo Art and
Branding Project without being formally approved and we had some impact
these days.
Here our tasks are much broader and more important, because there is no main
sponsor art team responsible for all the central design decisions.
Thank goodness for that :).
I still feel hesitant to any official title and position, but if you want me
to decide on less important topics, if you feel represented by me talking to
other parts of the community, I'll assume the duty of steering our team.
I remember being under the impression that you were the co-lead of the
Art project; although that was not officially the case, your ability
to always constructively respond to and guide our collaborations made
it feel that way 'unofficially'. Up till now, we have been somewhat
reluctant to decide on things like this ('roles') in the LibO Design
project, but regardless of that, it still feels very much like you
have been an integral part of this project from its very beginning. As
the overwhelmingly positive response shows, you've built up enough
goodwill and respect here to warrant this role, and you certainly have
my support.
Regards,
Ivan.
So, this topic has been open for a while now, and I realise it's a bit
awkward for you to declare this yourself Bernhard, so I felt inclined =)
And now that we have one last vote from one of our most integral (and
most genuinely missed) members, I think we can safely declare Bernhard
our new Design Team Lead.
Here's the tally;
FOR:
---
1. Luca CAPPELLETTI
2. Phil JACKSON
3. Vamsi KODALI
4. Klaus-jürgen WEGHORN
5. Charles-H. SCHULZ
6. Christoph NOACK
7. Scott PLEDGER
8. Tobias BERNARD
9. Nikash SINGH
10. Daniel MERKER
11. Kevin PEIGNOT
12. Mirek MAZEL
13. Ivan MISKOVIC
AGAINST;
---
0. No objections
I'll update the Design team wiki page in the coming days to reflect this
decision so that new members don't explicitly need to be told.
And just a clarification: no one assumes you should have to do any more
work on the lists or elsewhere as a result of this nomination.
Your hours are limited and we understand that fully. There is also no
expectation that you will no longer contribute Designs to remain impartial.
In cases where you do contribute a Design to the activity, a vote will
decide the final Design.
=)
Hooray for Meritocracy!
-Nik
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
Hi All I'd like to put together a small sub-team to work on formalising all the ideas on getting a transparent structure together. I've been fairly busy over the last week with my own work but had a chance to see all the useful contributions and previous work done on creating structures and processes. I appreciate that some members like Bernhard are already doing much more than they can be expected to and would be happy to act as coordinator of this sub-team as it carries out its work. I'm looking for about a total of 3-5 members for this sub-team. I would expect that this small project will take 2-3 weeks. We can use the knowledge and experience of others to get feedback on our proposals as we suggest them so we don't overlook useful ideas and suggestions. I suggest that we create a tag specifically for this project i.e. [DTF] standing for Design Team Formalisation or maybe someone can come up with a more apt one. So for those that want to get involved in this, let me know and we'll aim to get started in the next week. We can put together a simple outline which will expand where necessary on the obvious initial steps of ; 1) Set the general brief for the project in clear, unambiguous language 2) Summarise previous work and suggestions 3) Discuss and design the structure 4) Get feedback 5) Changes as required (repeat 4 and 5 as necessary) 6) Plan for implementation 7) Implement We can then try this out on real things to do and monitor how well the structure works and what tweaks are required. Cheers Phil Jackson On 6/5/2011 9:06 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi Vamsi, Phil, all sorry for this short reply (and top-posting), but I'm still more than busy with the discussion on how our larger community will evolve after the OpenOffice.org donation to Apache and the license shift from LGPL to Apache V 2.0 where every (free or corporate) entity (including Microsoft) can take the code without being obliged to contribute anything back. I marked Phil's mail for replying once I read it first - it is very reasonable and leads to more transparency in our team to have such a kind of formal guideline. What I'd like to see is a how we work area in the wiki we can point new members to - being quite similar to a formal paper, but more friendly to new contributors... Best regards Bernhard Vamsi Kodali schrieb: +1 to Bernhard. Now that that's out of the way, I request you to please consider Phil's proposal. I think that almost all (if not all) the steps he mentioned are being followed now too, just in a unorganized way. I believe that bringing a organized and managed scheme for new ideas and conveying it to the people involved in a clear manner will tidy up and improve the productivity of the entire process. Thanks, Vamsi. On 05/25/2011 04:59 PM, Phil Jackson wrote: Hi Bernhard We need some structure and therefore we need someone unofficially or officially to lead it. I'm more than happy for you to take on that role. If possible, I'd like to see a degree of formalisation of how the design team will work together with suggestions of stages for taking an idea and transforming it into a form that we have agreement on for submission to the pool of programmers. This is about building relationships between the design team members but also between the design team and programmers so they feel part of the design team. It's like selling ideas to management - well articulated ideas with supporting evidence should make a difference in getting done what the Design Team thinks by consensus is necessary to improve the product. Here are some suggestions for stages; 1) Someone comes up with an idea 2) Idea is posted on Design/WhiteBoards and emailed to team members 3) Idea is discussed and debated with ample opportunity to test idea and gather arguments for and against 4) Goes to vote stage by design members after member proposes that they do this - if passed goes to Stage 5) 5) A Design/Whiteboards paper for the idea if constructed giving a formalised breakdown of the idea - i.e. Overview, Introduction, Main Body with evidence, conclusions (why idea is a good one) and references/bibliography. 6) Submitted to programmers pool for their feedback. 7) Followup We need to make this reasonably professional without turning it into a Phd. It makes it transparent for all. I know that some of these things are already done, but using a system will make it more likely that progress is seen to be made on some very interesting and beneficial ideas. What does everybody think? Cheers Phil Jackson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
Hi Bernhard, all,
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Bernhard Dippold
bernh...@familie-dippold.at wrote:
[...]
Conclusion --
Work might become easier and less distractive, if someone would focus on
structure, orientation and organization of the design team, while all the
others can focus on designing.
All of you know me as someone with high interest in collaborative work and
concordant decision making. I took care of the members of the OOo Art and
Branding Project without being formally approved and we had some impact
these days.
Here our tasks are much broader and more important, because there is no main
sponsor art team responsible for all the central design decisions.
Thank goodness for that :).
I still feel hesitant to any official title and position, but if you want me
to decide on less important topics, if you feel represented by me talking to
other parts of the community, I'll assume the duty of steering our team.
I remember being under the impression that you were the co-lead of the
Art project; although that was not officially the case, your ability
to always constructively respond to and guide our collaborations made
it feel that way 'unofficially'. Up till now, we have been somewhat
reluctant to decide on things like this ('roles') in the LibO Design
project, but regardless of that, it still feels very much like you
have been an integral part of this project from its very beginning. As
the overwhelmingly positive response shows, you've built up enough
goodwill and respect here to warrant this role, and you certainly have
my support.
Regards,
Ivan.
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
+1 Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
+1 to Bernhard. Now that that's out of the way, I request you to please consider Phil's proposal. I think that almost all (if not all) the steps he mentioned are being followed now too, just in a unorganized way. I believe that bringing a organized and managed scheme for new ideas and conveying it to the people involved in a clear manner will tidy up and improve the productivity of the entire process. Thanks, Vamsi. On 05/25/2011 04:59 PM, Phil Jackson wrote: Hi Bernhard We need some structure and therefore we need someone unofficially or officially to lead it. I'm more than happy for you to take on that role. If possible, I'd like to see a degree of formalisation of how the design team will work together with suggestions of stages for taking an idea and transforming it into a form that we have agreement on for submission to the pool of programmers. This is about building relationships between the design team members but also between the design team and programmers so they feel part of the design team. It's like selling ideas to management - well articulated ideas with supporting evidence should make a difference in getting done what the Design Team thinks by consensus is necessary to improve the product. Here are some suggestions for stages; 1) Someone comes up with an idea 2) Idea is posted on Design/WhiteBoards and emailed to team members 3) Idea is discussed and debated with ample opportunity to test idea and gather arguments for and against 4) Goes to vote stage by design members after member proposes that they do this - if passed goes to Stage 5) 5) A Design/Whiteboards paper for the idea if constructed giving a formalised breakdown of the idea - i.e. Overview, Introduction, Main Body with evidence, conclusions (why idea is a good one) and references/bibliography. 6) Submitted to programmers pool for their feedback. 7) Followup We need to make this reasonably professional without turning it into a Phd. It makes it transparent for all. I know that some of these things are already done, but using a system will make it more likely that progress is seen to be made on some very interesting and beneficial ideas. What does everybody think? Cheers Phil Jackson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
Hi Vamsi, Phil, all sorry for this short reply (and top-posting), but I'm still more than busy with the discussion on how our larger community will evolve after the OpenOffice.org donation to Apache and the license shift from LGPL to Apache V 2.0 where every (free or corporate) entity (including Microsoft) can take the code without being obliged to contribute anything back. I marked Phil's mail for replying once I read it first - it is very reasonable and leads to more transparency in our team to have such a kind of formal guideline. What I'd like to see is a how we work area in the wiki we can point new members to - being quite similar to a formal paper, but more friendly to new contributors... Best regards Bernhard Vamsi Kodali schrieb: +1 to Bernhard. Now that that's out of the way, I request you to please consider Phil's proposal. I think that almost all (if not all) the steps he mentioned are being followed now too, just in a unorganized way. I believe that bringing a organized and managed scheme for new ideas and conveying it to the people involved in a clear manner will tidy up and improve the productivity of the entire process. Thanks, Vamsi. On 05/25/2011 04:59 PM, Phil Jackson wrote: Hi Bernhard We need some structure and therefore we need someone unofficially or officially to lead it. I'm more than happy for you to take on that role. If possible, I'd like to see a degree of formalisation of how the design team will work together with suggestions of stages for taking an idea and transforming it into a form that we have agreement on for submission to the pool of programmers. This is about building relationships between the design team members but also between the design team and programmers so they feel part of the design team. It's like selling ideas to management - well articulated ideas with supporting evidence should make a difference in getting done what the Design Team thinks by consensus is necessary to improve the product. Here are some suggestions for stages; 1) Someone comes up with an idea 2) Idea is posted on Design/WhiteBoards and emailed to team members 3) Idea is discussed and debated with ample opportunity to test idea and gather arguments for and against 4) Goes to vote stage by design members after member proposes that they do this - if passed goes to Stage 5) 5) A Design/Whiteboards paper for the idea if constructed giving a formalised breakdown of the idea - i.e. Overview, Introduction, Main Body with evidence, conclusions (why idea is a good one) and references/bibliography. 6) Submitted to programmers pool for their feedback. 7) Followup We need to make this reasonably professional without turning it into a Phd. It makes it transparent for all. I know that some of these things are already done, but using a system will make it more likely that progress is seen to be made on some very interesting and beneficial ideas. What does everybody think? Cheers Phil Jackson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
Hi, oh, I wouldn't call this job as a lead or senior team member but second assistant facility manager (2. Hilfshausmeister) who has to make the dirty jobs. ;-) I think you already do the job in absence of Christoph and you will do the job in the right way. So go on with The Flying Dutchman, we will follow and will mutiny if you want to get the plunder for your one. Maybe we should tell our decision to the steering commitee. -- Grüße k-j -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
Hi, 2011/5/26 klaus-jürgen weghorn ol o...@sophia-louise.de Hi, oh, I wouldn't call this job as a lead or senior team member but second assistant facility manager (2. Hilfshausmeister) who has to make the dirty jobs. ;-) I think you already do the job in absence of Christoph and you will do the job in the right way. So go on with The Flying Dutchman, we will follow and will mutiny if you want to get the plunder for your one. Maybe we should tell our decision to the steering commitee. Although I'm not part of the team and I'm just a lousy customer ringing you guys about logos to be designed asap and according to my own fantasies, I second this decision, congrats Bernhard! Best, Charles. -- Grüße k-j -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
+1 bernhard for president :) tobias -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
Hi all! Am Donnerstag, den 26.05.2011, 09:05 +0200 schrieb Charles-H. Schulz: Hi, 2011/5/26 klaus-jürgen weghorn ol o...@sophia-louise.de Hi, oh, I wouldn't call this job as a lead or senior team member but second assistant facility manager (2. Hilfshausmeister) who has to make the dirty jobs. ;-) Hehe, good thought ... when I wrote an introduction to the OOo UX Co-Lead role, I wrote something similar: Besides that, I would like to finalize my personal understanding of the co-lead role: I'm now enjoying to be the human spam filter for our mailing lists. Sounds challenging, hey? ;-) I think you already do the job in absence of Christoph and you will do the job in the right way. So go on with The Flying Dutchman, we will follow and will mutiny if you want to get the plunder for your one. Maybe we should tell our decision to the steering commitee. Although I'm not part of the team and I'm just a lousy customer ringing you guys about logos to be designed asap and according to my own fantasies, I second this decision, congrats Bernhard! +1 Thanks for caring! In a few weeks, I'm hopefully back to help with the UX / usability stuff. Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
+1 from me! Scott On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 08:12, Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.comwrote: Hi all! Am Donnerstag, den 26.05.2011, 09:05 +0200 schrieb Charles-H. Schulz: Hi, 2011/5/26 klaus-jürgen weghorn ol o...@sophia-louise.de Hi, oh, I wouldn't call this job as a lead or senior team member but second assistant facility manager (2. Hilfshausmeister) who has to make the dirty jobs. ;-) Hehe, good thought ... when I wrote an introduction to the OOo UX Co-Lead role, I wrote something similar: Besides that, I would like to finalize my personal understanding of the co-lead role: I'm now enjoying to be the human spam filter for our mailing lists. Sounds challenging, hey? ;-) I think you already do the job in absence of Christoph and you will do the job in the right way. So go on with The Flying Dutchman, we will follow and will mutiny if you want to get the plunder for your one. Maybe we should tell our decision to the steering commitee. Although I'm not part of the team and I'm just a lousy customer ringing you guys about logos to be designed asap and according to my own fantasies, I second this decision, congrats Bernhard! +1 Thanks for caring! In a few weeks, I'm hopefully back to help with the UX / usability stuff. Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
Hullo all, On 5/26/2011 10:52 PM, Tobias Bernard wrote: +1 bernhard for president :) tobias You've got my electorate! =) +1 Bernhard for president! -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
+1 Kévin PEIGNOT French Student in Networks and Telecomunications -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
Hi all, Within such a vivid team, things evolve quite fast - it's great to see what can be done here in short time frames! With this mail I want to reply to Nik and his suggestion in the thread about the mail subject [tags]. If this mail is too long for you, please scroll down to the end, read and reply there. Nik wrote: I know Christoph wasn't too keen on the Leadership thing, but you're flying the ship solo now. We can get more done if the rest of us focus on Designing, and you focus on steering. I didn't want to be called leader too, thought of senior team member instead (this would include more people experienced in this special kind of collaboration). But you're right. There are more important decisions to be taken by our team - and the minor ones (with minimal or no impact on our work) should be just established. My time is limited - and especially during these days with uncertainty by Oracle's announcements and the remnant OOo community thinking about re-unification - so I can't reply to all mails in the way I want to, I can't draw mockups and drafts of what I have in mind, I don't even can create the website and wiki pages I consider important for our work. So I have to focus. And if you all want me to focus on steering - and if this would help you to focus on designing - I'll try to fulfill these wishes. I will certainly not stop throwing in some drafts and ideas (sometimes we just need to see what we don't want to become true in order to start contributing our ideas), I will comment on topics where some important points have not been mentioned in my eyes. But I will try to reduce the number of my mails, when my thoughts have already been mentioned by one of your postings. You will not have me in a position of being the one and only deciding on official artwork or to approve a certain design - this is one of the most important tasks for our team in my eyes. But I will step in if I see a possible move in the general branding language or any other important area ... The first case I'll try to follow this way is the Conference Logo: I will not comment on the thread (even if Nik asked me directly). I really like the way you all work collaboratively on the design and you are very near to the final draft, I think. The general question of two-parted logos should be discussed in a separate thread (we can re-use them for team logos too), but in my eyes this is a good idea. So I want to come to an end and invite the people scrolling down to start reading here again: Conclusion -- Work might become easier and less distractive, if someone would focus on structure, orientation and organization of the design team, while all the others can focus on designing. All of you know me as someone with high interest in collaborative work and concordant decision making. I took care of the members of the OOo Art and Branding Project without being formally approved and we had some impact these days. Here our tasks are much broader and more important, because there is no main sponsor art team responsible for all the central design decisions. I still feel hesitant to any official title and position, but if you want me to decide on less important topics, if you feel represented by me talking to other parts of the community, I'll assume the duty of steering our team. You will have to post your opinion even (no: especially) if it is different from mine. If I propose a draft or design, it's quality is nothing better than your's and it should be criticized in the same way as any other design. If you think you can live with an unofficial lead and the conditions I describe above, please reply here: (And if you don't, your reply is even more important!) Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 00:54, Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at wrote: Hi all, ... If you think you can live with an unofficial lead and the conditions I describe above, please reply here: ... it's ok for me. For me you're free to take all the organization process. I'm just waiting to slot into the interaction design part of the product when everything will be stabilized (in terms of organization oscillations). You have all my support to let you take on lead. :) Luca -- --- Luca Cappelletti http://developerinfodomestic.blogspot.com ...Together we stand, divided we fall. .O. ..O OOO Zeitgeist Activist GTalk,MSN: luca dot cappelletti at gmail dot com FSF Member: #9269 Linux Registered User: #223411 Ubuntu Registered User: #7221 l'intelligenza è utile per la sopravvivenza se ci permette di estinguere una cattiva idea prima che la cattiva idea estingua noi La chiave di ogni uomo è il suo pensiero. Benché egli possa apparire saldo e autonomo, ha un criterio cui obbedisce, che è l'idea in base alla quale classifica tutte le cose. Può essere cambiato solo mostrandogli una nuova idea che sovrasti la sua Uno studioso è soltanto un modo in cui una biblioteca crea un’altra biblioteca -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Flying the ship... [please everybody, post a short reply]
Hi Bernhard We need some structure and therefore we need someone unofficially or officially to lead it. I'm more than happy for you to take on that role. If possible, I'd like to see a degree of formalisation of how the design team will work together with suggestions of stages for taking an idea and transforming it into a form that we have agreement on for submission to the pool of programmers. This is about building relationships between the design team members but also between the design team and programmers so they feel part of the design team. It's like selling ideas to management - well articulated ideas with supporting evidence should make a difference in getting done what the Design Team thinks by consensus is necessary to improve the product. Here are some suggestions for stages; 1) Someone comes up with an idea 2) Idea is posted on Design/WhiteBoards and emailed to team members 3) Idea is discussed and debated with ample opportunity to test idea and gather arguments for and against 4) Goes to vote stage by design members after member proposes that they do this - if passed goes to Stage 5) 5) A Design/Whiteboards paper for the idea if constructed giving a formalised breakdown of the idea - i.e. Overview, Introduction, Main Body with evidence, conclusions (why idea is a good one) and references/bibliography. 6) Submitted to programmers pool for their feedback. 7) Followup We need to make this reasonably professional without turning it into a Phd. It makes it transparent for all. I know that some of these things are already done, but using a system will make it more likely that progress is seen to be made on some very interesting and beneficial ideas. What does everybody think? Cheers Phil Jackson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
