Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[Csongor Halmai]

Hi everyone,

After reading all the messages in this topic, and learning how experienced marketing experts are in the team, I have the following humble 
thoughts.



1.

I am a techie person who is far from being a marketing expert. Therefore, take 
my opinion with a grain of salt.


2.

For most of the users, simple version numbers like X.x versus version Y.y don't say anything. Nobody remembers what the difference was 
between LO 5.0 and 6.0, but what other FOSS projects use, like Thunderbird 103 or Firefox 111, is also totally meaningless to a normie.


A version number like MSOffice'97 or JetBrains IntelliJ 2023 tells much more. People may know such a program has features we used 26 years 
ago or just recently. Therefore, I think a year based version number would make more sense.



I feel LibreOffice 2023 sounds much more modern than LO 8.0. It has no sneaky 
marketing-bias, it is a factual and meaningful information.


Again, this is just what _I_ think. If the decision will be different, I will be totally OK with it, I leave the decision to experts but 
wanted to add my two cents.


With regards,

Csongor



On 7/04/2023 18:23, Mike Saunders wrote:

Hello,

On 06.04.23 22:12, Eyal Rozenberg wrote:


Great, what's the problem? Why should we be in a rush to get existing users to 
upgrade from 7.5 to 7.6?


Well, one argument is that we have very limited resources to support two branches. LibreOffice 7.5 won't be around forever, so at some 
point we'll need to push people to update to 7.6/8.0, as the previous version won't be maintained and could potentially have security issues.


On Reddit, social media etc. we see lots of posts from people using ancient versions of LibreOffice, and have no idea that there are newer 
major releases. There are various reasons for that, but IMO we need to keep people up-to-date. Not for quarterly sales targets as a 
CompuGlobalHyperMegaCorp, as you say, but because it's better for us all in the project when people are using maintained and supported 
versions.



So, we should be at least skeptical about copying MS behavior regarding MSO in 
which their marketing wing is calling the shots.


Agreed that we shouldn't copy problematic behaviour, but if our goal is to raise awareness of LibreOffice as much as possible, and get it 
into as many hands as possible (and I know not everyone agrees with that), then we have to be aware of the market in which we're 
operating, and competing.


IMO, it's a lot like the whole "using proprietary services to reach users" debate. Arguably, as a FOSS project, we should avoid closed 
platforms like Twitter and Facebook. But we make a compromise and are active on those platforms, because they are very effective for 
reaching new users and communicating with them.


So I think our marketing has to balance these things. If we only care about the technical side, we could use XTerm-style numbering (just 
keep bumping a single number with every release). But as if we want to reach Microsoft Office users and make a compelling argument to 
them, our marketing has to fit.


And I know that Italo has a ton of experience and knowledge in this field, so 
his perspective on this is very valuable IMO.

Cheers,
Mike


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[Mike Saunders]

Hello,

On 06.04.23 22:12, Eyal Rozenberg wrote:


Great, what's the problem? Why should we be in a rush to get existing 
users to upgrade from 7.5 to 7.6?


Well, one argument is that we have very limited resources to support two 
branches. LibreOffice 7.5 won't be around forever, so at some point 
we'll need to push people to update to 7.6/8.0, as the previous version 
won't be maintained and could potentially have security issues.


On Reddit, social media etc. we see lots of posts from people using 
ancient versions of LibreOffice, and have no idea that there are newer 
major releases. There are various reasons for that, but IMO we need to 
keep people up-to-date. Not for quarterly sales targets as a 
CompuGlobalHyperMegaCorp, as you say, but because it's better for us all 
in the project when people are using maintained and supported versions.


So, 
we should be at least skeptical about copying MS behavior regarding MSO 
in which their marketing wing is calling the shots.


Agreed that we shouldn't copy problematic behaviour, but if our goal is 
to raise awareness of LibreOffice as much as possible, and get it into 
as many hands as possible (and I know not everyone agrees with that), 
then we have to be aware of the market in which we're operating, and 
competing.


IMO, it's a lot like the whole "using proprietary services to reach 
users" debate. Arguably, as a FOSS project, we should avoid closed 
platforms like Twitter and Facebook. But we make a compromise and are 
active on those platforms, because they are very effective for reaching 
new users and communicating with them.


So I think our marketing has to balance these things. If we only care 
about the technical side, we could use XTerm-style numbering (just keep 
bumping a single number with every release). But as if we want to reach 
Microsoft Office users and make a compelling argument to them, our 
marketing has to fit.


And I know that Italo has a ton of experience and knowledge in this 
field, so his perspective on this is very valuable IMO.


Cheers,
Mike

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[Italo Vignoli]

I have written that developers have a different mindset from marketing 
people. I have never said that developers are dumb people, and I have 
never even thought this.


On 06/04/23 23:45, Regis Perdreau wrote:

Hi all,

So if i understand correctly, developers are dumb people, talking only to
its computer, and marketer have the privilege to speak to real user...
Well, all the day, i speak to real user, and all say that marketers talk
non sense about Microsoft compatibility...
I wonder how to solve daily cognitive dissonnance
*
<https://context.reverso.net/traduction/anglais-francais/cognitive+dissonance>*
Just kidding

Cheers,
Régis Perdreau



Le jeu. 6 avr. 2023 à 23:00, Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco 
a écrit :


Hi, Nigel, Ben, Eyal, all!

  Let me add some comments. :)

  For sure, the current approach is a requirement for our internal
development organization, as Ben noted. Also, it was really important in
the first years of LibreOffice/TDF, when we used it to demonstrate we were
ahead of Apache OpenOffice for the users and the strong project/community
we were building.

  On the other hand, for the current moment of LibreOffice as a project and
product, I think we can do more or different things. Nigel wrote
exactly what I mean about 'boring' from the user perspective: most of the
users don't care about minor changes.

  So, I think, now, we should decide about releases with a Marketing
perspective and the number 8 could be a first step to do it, even without
big changes.

  Could it mean we will do a marketing trick?

  I think no, because we will be transparent with our users as we always
have been. If the release won't have big improvements, we won't talk about
big improvements.

  Why release a version without big improvements?

  That is the other point: I don't think we should focus only on big code
improvements to use major version numbers (or even version names). We
aren't only a product. We are a project and community. Indeed, the released
product is our final work but a major version can also be used to spread
(or celebrate) the maturity of the product/project/community. This is a
different approach than paid software/non FLOSS. This is what I mean with
consolidation.


On Thu, Apr 6, 2023 at 8:22 AM Nigel Verity 
wrote:


Hi Gustavo

This is a very good point.

If I see that some software I use regularly has gone from 7.5 to 7.6,
say, I wouldn't rush to upgrade unless I knew it fixed a problem that
affected me. I'm pretty sure that I would upgrade from 7.5 to to 8.0 far
more quickly, if for no other reason that the psychological one of wanting
to be using what my head tells me must be an improvement over my current
version.

Of course release notes are available to determine what really has
changed but I rather suspect that most users never read them.

The discussion of the different motivators for development and marketing
people is very interesting. When I was a developer neither I nor anybody in
my teams was ever let anywhere near sales activities - and I think for very
good reasons.

Cheers

Nige


* LibreOffice - Free and open source office suite: LibreOffice Website
<https://www.libreoffice.org/> *
* Respects your privacy, and gives you back control over your data*
--
*From:* Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco 
*Sent:* 05 April 2023 22:05
*To:* TDF Devs ; TDF Marketing <
market...@global.libreoffice.org>; TDF Design <
design@global.libreoffice.org>
*Subject:* Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving
to LibreOffice 8?

Hi Eyal, all!

  I also respectfully disagree with you on some points. ;D

  I like the idea to move to 8, even with no big technical innovation (if
we
have, for sure it will be better).

  IMHO, long sequences of minor releases (7.6, in the current case) are
getting boring and not important for the users (for both enterprise and
individual profiles).

  I'm not saying that we should embrace the Firefox approach, but thinking
about Italo's idea (8 <-> infinite), I guess the message of this version
could be consolidation, not exactly innovation.

Best
Gustavo


On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 4:23 AM Eyal Rozenberg  wrote:


I respectfully disagree with Italo.

First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as
major version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing
decisions. That is a _consideration_, since the version number is
declarative than technical. But - such an action should be "truthful"
before being "marketable".

It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users
receive trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t. version
numbers, but generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for

coverage.


A second point is that bumping a version number without a major
innovation moves you a few more steps into the category of, say, Firefox
and such, where versions just increase automatically with no meaning
whats

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[Italo Vignoli]

No one has used the term "animals".

They are users mis-informed and mis-educated by Microsoft, and partially 
by Google. And contrary of what you think we have many clues about what 
they care for, but when we suggest a strategy this is not accepted by 
community members (who, as you say, don't have any clue).


This is what happened when we suggested to use "personal" instead of 
"community" as a tag for LibreOffice. Normal users would have associated 
"personal" with PC (based on some search done by brand specialists), but 
community members thought that "community" was better, while "community" 
doesn't make any sense for people outside the community (a no-brainer) 
and by choosing "community" we killed the effectiveness of the marketing 
plan.


Many community members should acknowledge that there are other community 
members with different professional skills, based on 40+ years of work 
experience.


On 06/04/23 21:01, Jan Dittrich wrote:
I think it is not helpful to see people we want to reach as "uninformed" 
or even "animals".


Sure, they are not as skilled/informed as we are about the topics that 
we care for. Unsurprisingly, we will have no clue about topics they 
deeply care for.


Jan



--
Italo Vignoli - it...@vignoli.org
mobile/signal +39.348.5653829
hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com
GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0
DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[Eyal Rozenberg]

To put last thing first: I'm not staunchly opposed to bumping the 
version number to 8. So think of this as a theoretical discussion.


Anyway...

Noting Italo's explanation that:
> 80% (and probably more) of what we communicate is targeted to 
"normal" software users, and not to community members or to people with 
a technical background, who are already using LibreOffice.


, it seems to me that the strongest argument in favor of 
higher-frequency major version bumps is that it can increase 
media/Internet visibility for the new version somewhat, and thus likely 
to attract the attention of more potential new users, which is a good thing.


I find other arguments, though, to undermine this position more than 
buttress it.


Nigel Verity wrote:
> If I see that some software I use regularly has gone from 7.5 to 7.6, 
say, I wouldn't rush to upgrade


Great, what's the problem? Why should we be in a rush to get existing 
users to upgrade from 7.5 to 7.6? we're not failing to meet our 
quarterly sales targets in The Big Office Corporation (TM). It's 
actually better if we don't pretend it's important to upgrade to the 
next minor version if it isn't.


Italo Vignoli wrote:
> major releases of Microsoft Office are managed by marketing

Microsoft office is a commercial product, a commodity. And the company 
developing it is a vehicle for securing profits for its investors, not 
benefit to humanity (nor the users of office productivity suites). So, 
we should be at least skeptical about copying MS behavior regarding MSO 
in which their marketing wing is calling the shots.


Moreover - MSO versioning is kind of a mess; and even though I use MSO 
quite a bit (for reasons not relevant to this email) - for the life of 
me I can't tell what exactly changes between versions and whether I 
should bother to make sure and use a newer one.


> managed by marketing and not by developers

This is a false dichotomy. I'm not an LO developer; I didn't suggest the 
developers take over the version numbering; and I don't know that that 
would be a good thing. But decisions by marketers solely may also not be 
so great.


> marketing

about that...

LibreOffice is not a commodity. We don't exchange copies or licenses to 
use LibreOffice for money. And the set of people and organizations who 
use office suites, and the office suites they use, are not a market. 
_Some_  of that space is a market, but not our part (and there's also 
the ecosystem around LO, some of which is market-ish.) And while 
marketing experience is certainly useful in promoting the adoption and 
use of LO, there are still fundamental differences between doing that 
and "marketing" it. Some of them are practical (i.e. what "works" for 
commercial software isn't exactly what "works" for pitching LibreOffice 
use) but some of them are matters of principle and the kind of 
relationship and commitments between projects/producers/developers and 
users, or even non-users.


The major version number is not some sacred part of these commitments. 
But - like Jan Dittirch says - what would our users think of us if they 
had been aware that we bump version numbers as a "stimulus-evoking 
action" to rile up some of the "animals", and have the other "herd 
animals" follow? (And yes, I know those terms have not been repeated by 
other discussants.)


Paul Hofseth wrote:
> For Libre office number eight it might suffice to claim the usual 
"the changes will assure your improved experience and safety"


But it would be mostly a falsehood. I mean, any commit improves the 
experience of some people to some extent, but it's not true that the 
changes of 7.5 to 7.6 "assure your improved experience and safety". 
Moreover, people notice this kind of rhetoric - even non-tech-savvy 
newbies. And they realize that "Oh, so LibreOffice is another one of 
_those_ initiatives. The ones alienated and estranged from us, whose 
communiques must be carefully scrutinized for exaggerations and 
misrepresentations."


I would rather we not be that.

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[Jan Dittrich]

I think it is not helpful to see people we want to reach as "uninformed" 
or even "animals".


Sure, they are not as skilled/informed as we are about the topics that 
we care for. Unsurprisingly, we will have no clue about topics they 
deeply care for.


Jan


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[paul hofseth]

you might reason that since humans behave like herd animals, so that 
when some run, all run. The  stimulus evoking action  must be the most 
convincing, hence

the facts can be distorted.

For Libre office number eight it might suffice to claim the usual "the 
changes will assure your improved experience and safety". WHile making 
it quite clear that one i just mirroring the unscientific postures of 
other computing programs.


p.



Den 06-04-2023 12:06 skreiv Italo Vignoli:

On 06/04/23 10:08, Eyal Rozenberg wrote:

That is exactly what I'm opposing. Let's assume that the real 
situation is "boring" (I'm not sure that's the case, but still) and 
that, indeed, the changes since 7 are not fundamental enough to merit 
a version bump on their own (and I realize this is not in consensus 
either). In this state of affairs, evoking artificial interest in a 
new major version without substance behind it is a _marketing trick_, 
a psychological manipulation. One could even say it's mis-informing 
our users. It hurts user trust. Sure, it's not terrible to play with 
version numbers, but - I don't think that's something our users, 
current and potential, would like us to do.


All major releases of Microsoft Office are managed by marketing, as all 
major releases of proprietary software and hardware companies, and not 
by developers, and are based on what you call "marketing tricks".


By the way, marketing is a profession - as development - which is based 
on a specific professional background, and on a mindset which is 100% 
different from the mindset of a developer.


This is probably the reason why developers, and in general people with 
a strong technical background, do not understand marketing and consider 
it useless. Marketing is the opposite of science, and is based on 
behaviour analisys (which is the "least scientific" science, although 
some people are trying to "smuggle" it as science).


I have been a marketing executive for the last 42 years (since 1981), 
and the best marketing strategies I have managed during that time have 
been based on gut feelings (including the launch of Photoshop and PDF, 
when I was a marketing consultant for Adobe, and they both were huge 
success).


Given that Microsoft Office's market share is well over 50%, it looks 
like users of office suites do like marketing tricks. Please remember 
that around 98% of users are not able to judge features.


I am not contributing to QA for a very simple reason: I am not able to 
understand if the software behaviour is right or wrong (unless is clear 
as in the case of font embedding in macOS), and this is because I am 
not interested in technical details but I look at the wider picture.


Even if I am technically illiterate, outside the open source 
environment I am considered a geek because I usually am more competent 
than 98% of "normal" software users.


It should be clear that 80% (and probably more) of what we communicate 
is targeted to "normal" software users, and not to community members or 
to people with a technical background, who are already using 
LibreOffice (or refuse to use it for technical reasons). They are not 
our target, given that office suites are commodities.


Our target is mis-informed and mis-educated by Microsoft, but doesn't 
realize it. On the contrary, they trust Microsoft more than they trust 
open source software.

--
Italo Vignoli - it...@vignoli.org
mobile/signal +39.348.5653829
hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com
GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0
DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[Italo Vignoli]

On 06/04/23 10:08, Eyal Rozenberg wrote:

That is exactly what I'm opposing. Let's assume that the real situation 
is "boring" (I'm not sure that's the case, but still) and that, indeed, 
the changes since 7 are not fundamental enough to merit a version bump 
on their own (and I realize this is not in consensus either). In this 
state of affairs, evoking artificial interest in a new major version 
without substance behind it is a _marketing trick_, a psychological 
manipulation. One could even say it's mis-informing our users. It hurts 
user trust. Sure, it's not terrible to play with version numbers, but - 
I don't think that's something our users, current and potential, would 
like us to do.


All major releases of Microsoft Office are managed by marketing, as all 
major releases of proprietary software and hardware companies, and not 
by developers, and are based on what you call "marketing tricks".


By the way, marketing is a profession - as development - which is based 
on a specific professional background, and on a mindset which is 100% 
different from the mindset of a developer.


This is probably the reason why developers, and in general people with a 
strong technical background, do not understand marketing and consider it 
useless. Marketing is the opposite of science, and is based on behaviour 
analisys (which is the "least scientific" science, although some people 
are trying to "smuggle" it as science).


I have been a marketing executive for the last 42 years (since 1981), 
and the best marketing strategies I have managed during that time have 
been based on gut feelings (including the launch of Photoshop and PDF, 
when I was a marketing consultant for Adobe, and they both were huge 
success).


Given that Microsoft Office's market share is well over 50%, it looks 
like users of office suites do like marketing tricks. Please remember 
that around 98% of users are not able to judge features.


I am not contributing to QA for a very simple reason: I am not able to 
understand if the software behaviour is right or wrong (unless is clear 
as in the case of font embedding in macOS), and this is because I am not 
interested in technical details but I look at the wider picture.


Even if I am technically illiterate, outside the open source environment 
I am considered a geek because I usually am more competent than 98% of 
"normal" software users.


It should be clear that 80% (and probably more) of what we communicate 
is targeted to "normal" software users, and not to community members or 
to people with a technical background, who are already using LibreOffice 
(or refuse to use it for technical reasons). They are not our target, 
given that office suites are commodities.


Our target is mis-informed and mis-educated by Microsoft, but doesn't 
realize it. On the contrary, they trust Microsoft more than they trust 
open source software.

--
Italo Vignoli - it...@vignoli.org
mobile/signal +39.348.5653829
hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com
GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0
DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[Eyal Rozenberg]

Gustavo, it seems that what you're saying is that the _reality_ is a bit 
"boring" - a long sequence of minor releases without a 
fundamental/breakthrough change; and there is a desire to make it more 
interesting/exciting using a major version bump.


That is exactly what I'm opposing. Let's assume that the real situation 
is "boring" (I'm not sure that's the case, but still) and that, indeed, 
the changes since 7 are not fundamental enough to merit a version bump 
on their own (and I realize this is not in consensus either). In this 
state of affairs, evoking artificial interest in a new major version 
without substance behind it is a _marketing trick_, a psychological 
manipulation. One could even say it's mis-informing our users. It hurts 
user trust. Sure, it's not terrible to play with version numbers, but - 
I don't think that's something our users, current and potential, would 
like us to do.


"I guess the message of this version could be consolidation" - but what 
is consolidated about the code right now as opposed to 7.5 ?


Remember also, that as time progresses - an office suite's rate of 
change decreases. It is to be expected that major versions become 
farther between, and the release cycle becomes more "boring". Your 
reasoning, and this fact, combine to result in major version number 
inflation, which is the other thing I was cautioning about.


Eyal



On 06/04/2023 0:05, Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco wrote:

Hi Eyal, all!

  I also respectfully disagree with you on some points. ;D

  I like the idea to move to 8, even with no big technical innovation 
(if we have, for sure it will be better).


  IMHO, long sequences of minor releases (7.6, in the current case) are 
getting boring and not important for the users (for both enterprise and 
individual profiles).


  I'm not saying that we should embrace the Firefox approach, but 
thinking about Italo's idea (8 <-> infinite), I guess the message of 
this version could be consolidation, not exactly innovation.


Best
Gustavo


On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 4:23 AM Eyal Rozenberg > wrote:


I respectfully disagree with Italo.

First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as
major version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing
decisions. That is a _consideration_, since the version number is
declarative than technical. But - such an action should be "truthful"
before being "marketable".

It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users
receive trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t.
version
numbers, but generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for
coverage.

A second point is that bumping a version number without a major
innovation moves you a few more steps into the category of, say,
Firefox
and such, where versions just increase automatically with no meaning
whatsoever. Italo, you said we are perceived as a "real innovator";
well, when a real innovator starts having hollow version number
bumping,
that perception fades.

Finally, everyone who likes the marketing potential of version 8 -
great, but - keep that benefit for when we have a significant step
forward to celebrate. Don't squander it.


Eyal

PS:  availability on a new platform is not a reason to bump a version
number. It's the "same" software, but built for another target, so same
version as before. IMHO anyway.



On 27/03/2023 20:11, Italo Vignoli wrote:
 > Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing
 > purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real
innovator in
 > the open source office suite market, and the feeling of
journalists is
 > that we are forever stuck at 7.x.
 >
 > We all know that the next version will not include any significant
 > innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from
the new
 > build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm
 > processors on Windows (which has not been announced).
 >
 > Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the
 > "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice
for an
 > infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all
 > operating systems for personal productivity.
 >
 > This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I
won't
 > insist. I have received enough insults both public and private
for the
 > marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people,
that I
 > am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the
decision on
 > the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people
have a
 > very short memory).
 >
 > Looking forward to your thoughts.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to:

marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org

Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[Csongor Halmai]

I totally understand Italo's frustration. I also hate when I am expected to make a decision and people, who were absolutely silent and 
indifferent before, suddenly start to verbalise their opinion, which "happens to be" different from mine.


Regarding the version number, I think people who liked 7.x, will continue to like 8.x too. The rest may find the big jump attractive enough 
to try it but I believe most of the articles would emphasize "Hey people, here is the new version but there is nothing remarkably new in 
it". Which erodes the reputation of the product.


Therefore, I second Eyal's suggestion. Let's keep the new major version number 
for something really big jump.


Such a big jump could be an AI integration (like ChatGPT). It could really 
change how people use LO (at least, Writer and Impress)

Csongor






On 28/03/2023 20:43, Italo Vignoli wrote:

I have been asked to provide my opinion by developers, who seem to think that 
the change of version has to be a marketing decision. As I have said quite 
clearly, I am pissed off by the current situation, where I am asked to take a 
decision and then I am blamed because I take one. I leave the decision to the 
community.

28 Mar 2023 08:18:13 Eyal Rozenberg:


I respectfully disagree with Italo.

First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as major version number 
bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing decisions. That is a _consideration_, since the version number 
is declarative than technical. But - such an action should be "truthful" before being 
"marketable".

It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users receive 
trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t. version numbers, but 
generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for coverage.

A second point is that bumping a version number without a major innovation moves you a 
few more steps into the category of, say, Firefox and such, where versions just increase 
automatically with no meaning whatsoever. Italo, you said we are perceived as a 
"real innovator"; well, when a real innovator starts having hollow version 
number bumping, that perception fades.

Finally, everyone who likes the marketing potential of version 8 - great, but - 
keep that benefit for when we have a significant step forward to celebrate. 
Don't squander it.


Eyal

PS:  availability on a new platform is not a reason to bump a version number. It's the 
"same" software, but built for another target, so same version as before. IMHO 
anyway.



On 27/03/2023 20:11, Italo Vignoli wrote:

Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing purposes, as 
media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in the open source office 
suite market, and the feeling of journalists is that we are forever stuck at 
7.x.
We all know that the next version will not include any significant innovation 
which can justify the change of version, apart from the new build system for 
Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm processors on Windows 
(which has not been announced).
Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the "infinite" 
symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an infinite number of users, as 
we cover all hardware platforms and all operating systems for personal productivity.
This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't insist. I have 
received enough insults both public and private for the marketing plan, and I am still 
receiving them from a few people, that I am not willing to enter into that process again 
(even if the decision on the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks 
like people have a very short memory).
Looking forward to your thoughts.

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to:design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems?https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more:https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive:https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
Privacy Policy:https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[Italo Vignoli]

I have been asked to provide my opinion by developers, who seem to think that 
the change of version has to be a marketing decision. As I have said quite 
clearly, I am pissed off by the current situation, where I am asked to take a 
decision and then I am blamed because I take one. I leave the decision to the 
community.

28 Mar 2023 08:18:13 Eyal Rozenberg :

> I respectfully disagree with Italo.
> 
> First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as major 
> version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing decisions. That 
> is a _consideration_, since the version number is declarative than technical. 
> But - such an action should be "truthful" before being "marketable".
> 
> It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users receive 
> trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t. version numbers, but 
> generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for coverage.
> 
> A second point is that bumping a version number without a major innovation 
> moves you a few more steps into the category of, say, Firefox and such, where 
> versions just increase automatically with no meaning whatsoever. Italo, you 
> said we are perceived as a "real innovator"; well, when a real innovator 
> starts having hollow version number bumping, that perception fades.
> 
> Finally, everyone who likes the marketing potential of version 8 - great, but 
> - keep that benefit for when we have a significant step forward to celebrate. 
> Don't squander it.
> 
> 
> Eyal
> 
> PS:  availability on a new platform is not a reason to bump a version number. 
> It's the "same" software, but built for another target, so same version as 
> before. IMHO anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> On 27/03/2023 20:11, Italo Vignoli wrote:
>> Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing purposes, 
>> as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in the open source 
>> office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is that we are forever 
>> stuck at 7.x.
>> We all know that the next version will not include any significant 
>> innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new build 
>> system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm processors on 
>> Windows (which has not been announced).
>> Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the "infinite" 
>> symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an infinite number 
>> of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all operating systems for 
>> personal productivity.
>> This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't 
>> insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the 
>> marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I am 
>> not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on the 
>> "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a very 
>> short memory).
>> Looking forward to your thoughts.
> 
> -- 
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems? 
> https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[Eyal Rozenberg]

I respectfully disagree with Italo.

First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as 
major version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing 
decisions. That is a _consideration_, since the version number is 
declarative than technical. But - such an action should be "truthful" 
before being "marketable".


It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users 
receive trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t. version 
numbers, but generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for coverage.


A second point is that bumping a version number without a major 
innovation moves you a few more steps into the category of, say, Firefox 
and such, where versions just increase automatically with no meaning 
whatsoever. Italo, you said we are perceived as a "real innovator"; 
well, when a real innovator starts having hollow version number bumping, 
that perception fades.


Finally, everyone who likes the marketing potential of version 8 - 
great, but - keep that benefit for when we have a significant step 
forward to celebrate. Don't squander it.



Eyal

PS:  availability on a new platform is not a reason to bump a version 
number. It's the "same" software, but built for another target, so same 
version as before. IMHO anyway.




On 27/03/2023 20:11, Italo Vignoli wrote:
Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing 
purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in 
the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is 
that we are forever stuck at 7.x.


We all know that the next version will not include any significant 
innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new 
build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm 
processors on Windows (which has not been announced).


Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the 
"infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an 
infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all 
operating systems for personal productivity.


This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't 
insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the 
marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I 
am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on 
the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a 
very short memory).


Looking forward to your thoughts.


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[paul hofseth]

Sirs (& ladies?),

As an ironical kick in the soft underbelly of commercial progams one 
might emphasise that there also are  trivial changes warranting a 
numerical advance.


ExampleS: say that Libre office text now starts with Capitalis 
Quadrata(in the shape of Times new roman) rather than the usual sans 
serif.


OR an equally inconsequential  "improvement". that the first letter of 
the program name now is written with 16point type,


while underlining that unlike other programs that always improves your 
user experience and protects you , it does not disable useful commands 
(or kill communication with your NASboxes) .


p.



Den 27-03-2023 19:11 skreiv Italo Vignoli:
Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing 
purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in 
the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is 
that we are forever stuck at 7.x.


We all know that the next version will not include any significant 
innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new 
build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm 
processors on Windows (which has not been announced).


Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the 
"infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an 
infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all 
operating systems for personal productivity.


This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't 
insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the 
marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I 
am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision 
on the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have 
a very short memory).


Looking forward to your thoughts.
--
Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR
mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - email it...@libreoffice.org
hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com
GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0
DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy

[libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[Italo Vignoli]

Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing 
purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in 
the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is 
that we are forever stuck at 7.x.


We all know that the next version will not include any significant 
innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new 
build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm 
processors on Windows (which has not been announced).


Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the 
"infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an 
infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all 
operating systems for personal productivity.


This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't 
insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the 
marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I 
am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on 
the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a 
very short memory).


Looking forward to your thoughts.
--
Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR
mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - email it...@libreoffice.org
hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com
GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0
DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy