Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [New post] Community support needed: We want to use our users personal data

[Heiko Tietze]

On 02.11.22 12:36, Regina Henschel wrote:
I too dislike collecting user data in background. Bug 115712 was closed with 
"Wontfix" and Bug 140107 removed all relevant code parts. Even collecting data 
for TDF has been rejected for good reason. The "OpenOffice Improvement program" 
was stopped too. And now you want to collect data using a foreign party?


You should find other ways to get user data.


Thanks for commenting. I resurrected bug 115712.

--
Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor
Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [New post] Community support needed: We want to use our users personal data

[Regina Henschel]

Hi,

Heiko Tietze schrieb am 01.11.2022 um 17:05:
Your opinion is welcome, of course. Besides disliking the phrasing of 
your concerns I wonder what alternatives you have in mind. Or do you 
reject the need for user data? All good questions to discuss at the 
right place, and that's what the blog post is for.




I too dislike collecting user data in background. Bug 115712 was closed 
with "Wontfix" and Bug 140107 removed all relevant code parts. Even 
collecting data for TDF has been rejected for good reason. The 
"OpenOffice Improvement program" was stopped too. And now you want to 
collect data using a foreign party?


You should find other ways to get user data.

Kind regards
Regina


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Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [New post] Community support needed: We want to use our users personal data

[Eyal Rozenberg]

Heiko, that post speaks in the collective first person, "we", and extols 
polypoly - while hiding its commercial nature and interests. This should 
not be posted on the blog - where posts ostensibly represent the 
project's decisions and position. For a discussion, we have mailing 
lists and jitsi sessions. And we have, in fact, had somewhat of a 
discussion, which did not result in an agreement to accept this 
proposal, nor an agreement on the premise of the proposal.


So - I ask that the post be removed.

Eyal


On 01/11/2022 18:05, Heiko Tietze wrote:
Your opinion is welcome, of course. Besides disliking the phrasing of 
your concerns I wonder what alternatives you have in mind. Or do you 
reject the need for user data? All good questions to discuss at the 
right place, and that's what the blog post is for.


On 01.11.22 16:34, Eyal Rozenberg wrote:

What, this again?

polypoly is a commercial enterprise planning to make money by selling 
the results of spying on people. Not to mention that it makes 
Euro-nationalist arguments about how it's important for European 
commercial entities rather than non-European ones to profit from 
spying on people.


Why are we exposing our users to their propaganda via the blog? Before 
I address that post on the merits, I would really like to ask you all, 
and particularly Heiko, to take that blog post down.


Eyal



On 01/11/2022 17:16, LibreOffice Design Team wrote:
Site logo image Heiko Tietze posted: "What comes to your mind, 
when you ask yourself why people use LibreOffice? A "stunning user 
experience" is likely not in the top list. And unfortunately we share 
this problem with a lot of user facing Free Software. And there is a 
common reason: We val" LibreOffice Design Team 




  Community support needed: We want to use our users personal data




Heiko Tietze

Nov 1

What comes to your mind, when you ask yourself why people use 
LibreOffice? A "stunning user experience" is likely not in the top 
list. And unfortunately we share this problem with a lot of user 
facing Free Software.


And there is a common reason: *We value the privacy of our 
users.*


Empty walkway in green field 



Photo by Erik Mclean at Pexels 



While our proprietary competitors constantly (mis)use user data to 
improve the UX of their products, we are maneuvering in thick fog. 
And whenever we try to reach out to our users to decide about design 
directions, we mainly get feedback from white, male nerds [1 
]. You hopefully see the problems this implies.


The only solution is: We need to be able to evaluate usage 
information from everyone else too. While preserving the privacy of 
our users of course.


We need to be totally clear here, as we are touching common ground of 
Free Software Communities. Data protection and control over own data 
is a major driver for a large fraction of our community [2 
]. And it is for us too. Only when it comes to avoiding data in the first place, we do have to state, that we need aggregated personal data to able to do our work. We do not think creating data is bad per se.



  Is there a third way?

The current data economy is set up to send out personal data to the 
algorithms. Unfortunately data can easily be copied, and once it 
leaves your property, you lose all control over it. So, today, you 
either surrender and give up on your personal data or have to avoid 
producing data in the first place, which is hard work.


But how about a third way, where all personal data is stored locally 
on users' devices and only the algorithms are sent to the data to 
learn? Then we only have to assure that the algorithm is not harming 
the privacy in anyway, that the results from those algorithms cannot 
be de-anonymized anymore and we can use the aggregated data of our 
users without compromising the integrity of a single user's privacy.


The good news: We believe that we have found a partner project, 
polypoly.coop  that creates exactly the 
infrastructure for this third way.


With this post we ask you, the community for your help and support 
for collaboration. We need you as a critical partner to watch out all 
we do aligns with our values. We, the UX team need the results of 
this collaboration to understand and reflect the needs of our diverse 
community. And we need your technical 

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [New post] Community support needed: We want to use our users personal data

[Heiko Tietze]

Your opinion is welcome, of course. Besides disliking the phrasing of your 
concerns I wonder what alternatives you have in mind. Or do you reject the need 
for user data? All good questions to discuss at the right place, and that's what 
the blog post is for.


On 01.11.22 16:34, Eyal Rozenberg wrote:

What, this again?

polypoly is a commercial enterprise planning to make money by selling the 
results of spying on people. Not to mention that it makes Euro-nationalist 
arguments about how it's important for European commercial entities rather than 
non-European ones to profit from spying on people.


Why are we exposing our users to their propaganda via the blog? Before I address 
that post on the merits, I would really like to ask you all, and particularly 
Heiko, to take that blog post down.


Eyal



On 01/11/2022 17:16, LibreOffice Design Team wrote:
Site logo image Heiko Tietze posted: "What comes to your mind, when you 
ask yourself why people use LibreOffice? A "stunning user experience" is 
likely not in the top list. And unfortunately we share this problem with a lot 
of user facing Free Software. And there is a common reason: We val" 
LibreOffice Design Team 



  Community support needed: We want to use our users personal data
  





Heiko Tietze

Nov 1

What comes to your mind, when you ask yourself why people use LibreOffice? A 
"stunning user experience" is likely not in the top list. And unfortunately we 
share this problem with a lot of user facing Free Software.


And there is a common reason: *We value the privacy of our 
users.*


Empty walkway in green field 



Photo by Erik Mclean at Pexels 



While our proprietary competitors constantly (mis)use user data to improve the 
UX of their products, we are maneuvering in thick fog. And whenever we try to 
reach out to our users to decide about design directions, we mainly get 
feedback from white, male nerds [1 
]. You hopefully see the problems this implies.


The only solution is: We need to be able to evaluate usage information from 
everyone else too. While preserving the privacy of our users of course.


We need to be totally clear here, as we are touching common ground of Free 
Software Communities. Data protection and control over own data is a major 
driver for a large fraction of our community [2 
]. And it is for us too. Only when it comes to avoiding data in the first place, we do have to state, that we need aggregated personal data to able to do our work. We do not think creating data is bad per se.



  Is there a third way?

The current data economy is set up to send out personal data to the 
algorithms. Unfortunately data can easily be copied, and once it leaves your 
property, you lose all control over it. So, today, you either surrender and 
give up on your personal data or have to avoid producing data in the first 
place, which is hard work.


But how about a third way, where all personal data is stored locally on users' 
devices and only the algorithms are sent to the data to learn? Then we only 
have to assure that the algorithm is not harming the privacy in anyway, that 
the results from those algorithms cannot be de-anonymized anymore and we can 
use the aggregated data of our users without compromising the integrity of a 
single user's privacy.


The good news: We believe that we have found a partner project, polypoly.coop 
 that creates exactly the infrastructure for this third 
way.


With this post we ask you, the community for your help and support for 
collaboration. We need you as a critical partner to watch out all we do aligns 
with our values. We, the UX team need the results of this collaboration to 
understand and reflect the needs of our diverse community. And we need your 
technical excellence to make sure we keep the basic promise: Any single user's 
privacy is preserved.


You can find a lot of information about /polypoly/ on their website. We still 
want to highlight a few aspects that make us think polypoly is the right 
project to partner with:


  * /polypoly/ is legally organized as a cooperative. Only individuals
    can become members. Each member has one vote, no matter how many
    shares are owned. This assures that /polypoly/ will always work for
    and in the interest of the users and can never be bought by big money.