Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
Hi all, On 7 December 2013 22:11, Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: I am concerned that thls call to postpone is rooted in unrealistic expectations and ultimately makes us lose time while demotivating team members. Well, I am kind of afraid to open this can of worms in this thread... especially since I am now acting as a necromancer, too. ;) LibreOffice has a certain tendency to ship with half-done or (pessimistically speaking) half-broken features that get very little attention in the next cycle, as the developer(s) has/have moved on already to the next project. So, the developer tries to make sure that the worst things are ironed out until x.x.2 or so and then just does not have time for the feature anymore. After that, the hope usually is that some (other) volunteer hacker might come around and do the rest of the work. Of course, the problem with that thinking is that the first 80 % of the work are done in 20 % of the time, so even if the mythical helper comes out of the dark shadows, they are facing a pretty big battle. And that is where I think Michel wanted to go. Of course there is at least two more aspects to this, one is communication with design (where people are excitable and have also moved on already, so the developer sometimes wants to reach us, but nobody cares) and the too small beta testing community (which could find problems before the cycle ends). exaggerationOf course, the biggest features usually come in right before RC1./exaggeration Astron. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
Hi Mirek, Mirek M. píše v Pá 27. 12. 2013 v 16:23 +0100: * Please make it clear visually that Create is a label and not a button. If you don't want to differentiate using font size and weight, you can add icons for Open and Templates (those are part of http://ubuntuone.com/0bhbyPRVt8hChFsZ64HBfO, might be somewhere in the icon set as well). Tamas has done that: http://pasteboard.co/2yzkqeXD.png Hope it's OK; it should make it to RC2, so we will still have time to revert this change should it turn out during testing that the icons are annoying or anything. We'll go through the rest of the issues too, but not 100% sure we will make everything to RC3 - maybe some stuff will go to 4.2.1. * Please show the tooltip over the thumbnail label. Can you please me more specific - I can see the tooltip with URL appear when I mouse over the label of the thumbnail preview. As for the border around module icons, would it be possible to a) use a different aspect ratio for presentations, Yep. b) use a dotted outline instead of a full one, to differentiate previews and non-previews? Not really - this is unfortunately harder than it sounds :-( - so definitely not for 4.2.0. All the best, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com wrote: * At smaller sizes, the thumbnails are much harder to make out. Take a look I don't think there's an actual need to make out things. You have the name of the document as well, don't you? And for anything bigger you can open a separate window (like GNOME Sushi). -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
Sorry for contradicting you, but I absolutely hate those huge previews, these are so inefficient, wasting an insane amount of space (I do not own a big monitor, y'know). Shouldn't these adapt to smaller screens, and netbooks? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
Mirek M. wrote (28-12-13 00:50) 2013/12/27 Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl Was the size in beta2 90x90 or so ? It was a smaller than 180x180, but I don't remember the exact size. It was 115 px hart to hart for the thumbnails. In rc1 that is (appr) 275 px. So appr. 180 hart to hart should be OK indeed. Cor -- - Cor Nouws - http://nl.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
Hi Cor, Pedro, 2013/12/24 Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl Pedro wrote (14-12-13 10:12) Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote - Thumbnails I considerably increased their size, and improved their drawing algorithm to antialias the pictures. Also for the files that have no thumbnail, I made it look like the icon is on a piece of paper; looks much more consistently when there are more documents open. This reduces even more the number of available items (only 6?)... It was already hugely reduced by removing the tabs... I think it makes the Recent Documents irrelevant... I agree. With applauding for the many improvements, but also with the criticism on the thumbnails size. - I see in 4.2.0 beta there are 10 thumbnails on one line. And room for 4 to 5 lines. Those thumbnails are a bit small. - In 4.2.0 RC1 there are 4 thumbnails on one line and only two lines visible. Really way too large. Something as 7 to 8 thumbnails on one line would be best, IMO. Keep in mind that: * The number of thumbnails per line depends on the window size. * This window will usually be full-screen, given that it transforms into modules. * At smaller sizes, the thumbnails are much harder to make out. Take a look at Stuart's screenshot: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n4088188/StartCenter_1920x1200HD_fully_populated_18-thumbnails_with_vertical_scroll.jpg. The presentations are easy to make out, but the documents can be hard to make out, even at this size. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
2013/12/27 Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com Hi Cor, Pedro, 2013/12/24 Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl Pedro wrote (14-12-13 10:12) Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote - Thumbnails I considerably increased their size, and improved their drawing algorithm to antialias the pictures. Also for the files that have no thumbnail, I made it look like the icon is on a piece of paper; looks much more consistently when there are more documents open. This reduces even more the number of available items (only 6?)... It was already hugely reduced by removing the tabs... I think it makes the Recent Documents irrelevant... I agree. With applauding for the many improvements, but also with the criticism on the thumbnails size. - I see in 4.2.0 beta there are 10 thumbnails on one line. And room for 4 to 5 lines. Those thumbnails are a bit small. - In 4.2.0 RC1 there are 4 thumbnails on one line and only two lines visible. Really way too large. Something as 7 to 8 thumbnails on one line would be best, IMO. Keep in mind that: * The number of thumbnails per line depends on the window size. * This window will usually be full-screen, given that it transforms into modules. * At smaller sizes, the thumbnails are much harder to make out. Take a look at Stuart's screenshot: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n4088188/StartCenter_1920x1200HD_fully_populated_18-thumbnails_with_vertical_scroll.jpg. The presentations are easy to make out, but the documents can be hard to make out, even at this size. One more thing: The number of recent documents is limited, so there's not that much need to fit a lot of thumbnails in. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
The thumbnails are there to be able to set apart documents at a glance, so there's some need to be able to make out the basics, though it's true that with documents, you'll mostly be looking at the layout and perhaps the title. All these things said (talking about my recent messages, not just this one), though, I wouldn't mind it if the previews were limited to 180x180 instead of the current 256x256. 2013/12/27 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos fitosch...@gmail.com On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com wrote: * At smaller sizes, the thumbnails are much harder to make out. Take a look I don't think there's an actual need to make out things. You have the name of the document as well, don't you? And for anything bigger you can open a separate window (like GNOME Sushi). -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
Pedro wrote (14-12-13 10:12) Jan Holesovsky-4 wrote - Thumbnails I considerably increased their size, and improved their drawing algorithm to antialias the pictures. Also for the files that have no thumbnail, I made it look like the icon is on a piece of paper; looks much more consistently when there are more documents open. This reduces even more the number of available items (only 6?)... It was already hugely reduced by removing the tabs... I think it makes the Recent Documents irrelevant... I agree. With applauding for the many improvements, but also with the criticism on the thumbnails size. - I see in 4.2.0 beta there are 10 thumbnails on one line. And room for 4 to 5 lines. Those thumbnails are a bit small. - In 4.2.0 RC1 there are 4 thumbnails on one line and only two lines visible. Really way too large. Something as 7 to 8 thumbnails on one line would be best, IMO. Cheers, Cor -- - Cor Nouws - http://nl.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
1. Please, add Open and Templates icons from current build ( https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/e/e4/4.2_start_center.png ) 2. Remove Help button (from bottom, left corner). There is the same button above the toolbar (menu File, Tool, Help). Instead of give users button-link to template's repository (next to button-link to extensions' repository) 3. Give back normal components name, that is Text document, Spreadsheet, Presentation, Drawing, Formula, Database. Current names will look horrible after translated. Can we delete single document and how can we delete all document at once? 2013/12/13 Jan Holesovsky ke...@collabora.com Hi Mirek, all, Mirek M. píše v St 04. 12. 2013 v 10:03 +0100: Yes, here are the decisions [1]: * Keep sidebar on the left for LTR locales, have it on the right for RTL locales. * Use thumbnails, but indicate file type using colors or badges. -- We still need to design this, but if we don't do it in time, having no color codes for this release is fine and we'll put them in the next one. * Use 2-line labels, with the name cut off in the middle, just like the labels in Gnome Documents. * Show the full file path (including extension) in a tooltip. * Button labels: Create Writer Text Document (or simply Writer Document, if Writer Text Document is too long in some languages -- your call), Calc Spreadsheet, Impress Presentation, Draw Drawing, Math Formula, Base Database * Greeting: Welcome to LibreOffice. Use the sidebar to open or create a file. So I have implemented most of these, I think I've left out only the 2 lines description - it is more complex unfortunately :-( I also fixed a couple of things that were annoying me personally. The results are here: Empty start center, with no documents: http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter-empty.png Some recent documents present: http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/design-list/startcenter-recent.png You can see some differences to the design, most notably: - Create When playing with that, it started to annoy me that it is _above_ the separator line, and that it has smaller font size. Also, it logically belongs to the group of the buttons, so I moved it there, gave it the same size as the button text, and added a colon. I believe it works pretty well ;-) - Thumbnails I considerably increased their size, and improved their drawing algorithm to antialias the pictures. Also for the files that have no thumbnail, I made it look like the icon is on a piece of paper; looks much more consistently when there are more documents open. - Open File I changed the pure 'Open' to 'Open File' - I think it goes better with the explanatory Writer Document / Calc Spreadsheet etc. - Various pixel here, pixel there tweaks To get more breathing space etc. - hopefully you are happy with the result, it would be just too painful for everybody to ping-pong every change there :-) - Mouse over Now we have a mouse over effect when you point at the thumbnails. Finally - there are still things to fix around accessibility, haven't changed a bit there; but that shouldn't be affected by the UI freeze, I still plan to have a look. Please shout if anything is wrong - but I hope the current state is acceptable for most :-) Everyone, please play with the nightly build that is built after now report bugs. All the best, Kendy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Miłego dnia życzę, hej M.Z. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
Le 13/12/2013 20:34, Mateusz Zasuwik a écrit : 1. Please, add Open and Templates icons from current build ( https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/e/e4/4.2_start_center.png ) 2. Remove Help button (from bottom, left corner). There is the same button above the toolbar (menu File, Tool, Help). Instead of give users button-link to template's repository (next to button-link to extensions' repository) The two buttons doesn't link to the same, one links to the site the other one links to the help file and I think it's good. 3. Give back normal components name, that is Text document, Spreadsheet, Presentation, Drawing, Formula, Database. Current names will look horrible after translated. No, I think it's currently much better because New could change, here this is clear. We (l10n team) do not translate the branding names and they are already known. And by the way, thanks a lot Kendy :) Kind regards Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
Hi Just to be clear, Michel's idea is to postpone the new start center, not LibreOffice itself. Make the new startcenter as an experimental feature for example and to be default in 4.3 could be a solution. 2013/12/7 Pedro pedl...@gmail.com Hi Michel Michel RENON wrote IMHO, it's a bad decision : it clearly means that the design is incomplete. And it's not during the Beta phase that such work can be started. My suggestion is to postpone the start center for the 4.3 release. It's possible because the current start center is still ok. It will give you the minimum time to perform design and dev tasks in a calm way. People from QA, translation and documentation will also appreciate. Postponing isn't going to happen. This is a Time based release project. The criteria for release is not based on completeness. A second concept: this is not a democracy. It's a do-ocracy. It also took me some time to realize that. I still haven't figured out if this the right way (fixes and improvements occur much faster) or the wrong way (regressions creep in at the most unexpected places and scare users away, some features change from release to release, etc)... You either accept this as it is or you are going to be disappointed . Just my 2 cents ;) -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Start-Center-Niggles-tp4085277p4087061.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Arnaud Versini -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
Arnaud, What would be Michel's readons to post pone the start center to the 4.3? I am concerned that thls call to postpone is rooted in unrealistic expectations and ultimately makes us lose time while demotivating team members. Best, Charles. Arnaud Versini arnaud.vers...@gmail.com a écrit : Hi Just to be clear, Michel's idea is to postpone the new start center, not LibreOffice itself. Make the new startcenter as an experimental feature for example and to be default in 4.3 could be a solution. 2013/12/7 Pedro pedl...@gmail.com Hi Michel Michel RENON wrote IMHO, it's a bad decision : it clearly means that the design is incomplete. And it's not during the Beta phase that such work can be started. My suggestion is to postpone the start center for the 4.3 release. It's possible because the current start center is still ok. It will give you the minimum time to perform design and dev tasks in a calm way. People from QA, translation and documentation will also appreciate. Postponing isn't going to happen. This is a Time based release project. The criteria for release is not based on completeness. A second concept: this is not a democracy. It's a do-ocracy. It also took me some time to realize that. I still haven't figured out if this the right way (fixes and improvements occur much faster) or the wrong way (regressions creep in at the most unexpected places and scare users away, some features change from release to release, etc)... You either accept this as it is or you are going to be disappointed . Just my 2 cents ;) -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Start-Center-Niggles-tp4085277p4087061.html Sent from the Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Arnaud Versini -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Envoyé de mon téléphone avec Kaiten Mail. Excusez la brièveté. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
Le 07/12/2013 22:11, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit : Arnaud, What would be Michel's readons to post pone the start center to the 4.3? I am concerned that thls call to postpone is rooted in unrealistic expectations and ultimately makes us lose time while demotivating team members. Agreed, and whit Pedro explanations too. More it's really too late in the process, it's already implemented, localized, tested, advertised... To much work already done by the community to cancel it. Cheers Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
Le 06/12/2013 01:12, Michel Renon a écrit : Hi, [...] IMHO, it's a bad decision : it clearly means that the design is incomplete. And it's not during the Beta phase that such work can be started. My suggestion is to postpone the start center for the 4.3 release. I disagree, if we wait that the StartCenter is perfect, it will never be released. Best regards. JBF -- Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Start Center Niggles
Hi, Le 04/12/2013 10:03, Mirek M. a écrit : 2013/12/4 Jan Holesovsky ke...@collabora.com Hi Mirek, Mirek M. píše v Čt 28. 11. 2013 v 22:01 +0100: Please wait with the text until after this week's IRC chat, where we should finally reach consensus on all the controversial topics -- including button labels and the welcome text. Do we have the consensus now, please? Yes, here are the decisions [1]: * Keep sidebar on the left for LTR locales, have it on the right for RTL locales. * Use thumbnails, but indicate file type using colors or badges. -- We still need to design this, but if we don't do it in time, having no color codes for this release is fine and we'll put them in the next one. IMHO, it's a bad decision : it clearly means that the design is incomplete. And it's not during the Beta phase that such work can be started. My suggestion is to postpone the start center for the 4.3 release. It's possible because the current start center is still ok. It will give you the minimum time to perform design and dev tasks in a calm way. People from QA, translation and documentation will also appreciate. It will also allow you to handle other use cases (already defined in this mailing-list) - how to show meta data : file size, creation/modification date, full path... - how to filter/sort by type - maybe some security questions ? My suggestion is motivated with the template manager in mind : big changes were made at the last minutes and it was difficult for everybody involved. And template manager is still far from perfect. So it seems obvious to postpone it. Otherwise, you'll repeat previous mistakes. Michel -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
