[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I think I went too far with my comments and I really sorry, Mr. Visser, specifically apologize to you because I think you're older than me, so respect to you is even greater. At the end I think we got great respect by Ubuntu as always and I think that finally the passions around this bug is calmed down. From this point of view I'm sorry once again for most of my comments. I think we contributed much for the progress of Ubuntu and Ubuntu will deliver back to as such a wonderful OS as always did. I wish you best to all. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
** Description changed: - *** As per the design team's request*** + === Master Bug === + (As per the design team's request) All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug. All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a one. - - - Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also - re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right - side (menu - title - minimize, maximize close). + === Desire === + Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right side (menu - title - minimize, maximize close). Workaround - To revert to old layout, enter in terminal: + To revert to old layout, run in a terminal: $ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string menu:minimize,maximize,close - The PPA is no longer needed as of the latest version of light-themes. - - Overview - Canonical design team leader - Those pesky buttons - 2010-03-10 - http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281 + Responses + Canonical Design Team Leader (Ivanka Majic) - 2010-03-10 and 2010-03-17 + http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281 (Those pesky buttons) http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/03/17/s03e03-behind-the-screen/ (30-minute interview starting at 39:10) - Mark Shuttleworth's reply (on this bug report) - 2010-03-15 - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/comments/110 + ~10 following replies + Ubuntu SABDFL (Mark Shuttleworth) replies on this bug report - 2010-03-15 onwards + http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/110 + http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/167 + http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/179 + http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/202 to 204 + http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/218 + http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/248 + http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/272 + http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/388 + http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/410 + http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/426 to 427 + http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/469 + http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/532633/comments/503 - === + Canonical Ubuntu Community Leader (Jono Bacon) response - 2010-03-24 + http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5683123 (6 minutes starting at 26:24) + + === Code of Conduct === To maintain a respectful atmosphere, while commenting please follow the code of conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ . -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Unless i can get a distro with the buttons in the correct position i will move to Fedora. I know i have no say in this decision but I'm not going to make this change on every PC I install this on. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Bob, fyi, and not to derail this bug, but you'll find that Fedora is a lot more bleeding edge than say Ubuntu or one of its' derivatives (like Linux Mint) are. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
thanks, yeah i think i might just skip this release and wait for Fedora's next release and go with that. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I just downloaded and tried the latest Lucid: 1) I don't like the menu button order. Too confusing. 2) I don't like the button location on the left. Too confusing. In both cases, my mouse hangs to the right by default. 3) I like how clear the default theme is, but the purple background, button order and moves make it look way too much like a Mac. If I wanted a Mac, I'd buy one. If I wanted to run Mac OS X, I'd run it. Same goes for Windows. I actually LIKE the Human theme from Ubuntu 8.04LTS. 4) Why can't I add my own custom GDM login screens anymore? Why have this and other GDM theme/features also disappeared? I'll hang on to 8.04 LTS as long as I can, then move over to Debian if things don't change. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I have the good impression that Lucid will be a big success. It's the beautifulest and full with great features (Ubuntu's Indicator-Applets, Music-Store, Software-Center, ...) Distro far and wide in the Linux- World. Since Karmic I love the good progress Ubuntu is going. Even Windows 7 looks now worst than the new Lucid which will come out soon. I saw the good critics in the press and everybody is excited. Other good effect is that a part of the horrible conservative part of the community will leave us, because they can't accept changes and progress. A part will go... many new users will come. Now it's time for changes and improving the situation from the Bug #1. Happy. from Pyramid Technologies: I just downloaded and tried the latest Lucid Wow. I point it out.. simply. ;-) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
After Mark S. clear statement we got here only comments of peoples they can't stop crying. It's so, because they know that Mark S. is here and is reading the comments. I hope that this exploitation will stop now and we will get here ***only*** clear datas from the key-peoples. Thanks. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Pyramid Technologies 508: Have you been running Karmic? My understanding that the GDM customization issue you refer to was introduced when moving to GDM 2.26 from 2.20 because of the refactoring of upstream GDM the original gdmconfig no longer works. Ubuntu skipped several upstream releases of GDM to avoid regressions due to the refactoring...but you can't wait forever and GDM was finally updated again in the run up to Karmic's released introducing the configuration regression. Subsequently a replacement stand alone gdmconfig was created I believe by Canonical's Desktop Team and submitted to Gnome as a patch via bugzilla. Reference with regard to the existing re-written config tool: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Spec/GDMConfigureTool This has a good discussion as to why the original gdmconfig need to be let go: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=553250(comments 3 and 5 especially) And the issues preventing a good complete secure rewrite are not completely solved: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587750#c26 ** Bug watch added: GNOME Bug Tracker #553250 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=553250 ** Bug watch added: GNOME Bug Tracker #587750 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587750 -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
My apologies if this is redundant data. Most certainly due to the popularity of this bug, the buttons are nearly completely configurable in either left or right side situations. However, if additional .png associations could be made for the close and menu buttons, specifically when they are isolated from the other buttons, it would be completely (as far as I can tell) configurable. As of light-themes_0.1.6.0 when these two buttons are placed by themselves away from the others, the background is rather ugly, and I'm sure this is a simple fix. Again, sorry if this post is redundant. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I generally don't keep up with all the new releases, and when I upgraded from 8.04 I was generally very impressed by all the improvements that have happened over the past 2 years. And then I noticed that the buttons were on the wrong side. For me on my own personal computer it isn't a big deal (look up way to change it back on google, 5 minutes later, done). However when I help a friend install Linux and their only experience is with Windows, this issue is sufficiently annoying to make me reconsider if I'll recommend Ubuntu over other distributions that will be faster to setup (if only slightly). There is enough stuff to do on a clean install of any desktop Linux distribution (go get the multimedia codecs, a better pdf reader, install Mathematica and/or Matlab, Java, flash, etc.) that adding an extra step really doesn't make any sense to reasonably busy students who need their computer setup quickly. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Yann, I'm also think that this is an excellent compromise. I think that other people in this channel will like it too, if not, we gonna reach the comment #1000 soon :) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Devin Walters Yes, and I fundamentally disagree with pretty much every single one of Mark's responses to the criticism. etc etc. So what? He's response to all users is his billions of dollars invest in something that is given to you for prize ZERO! You know what a real democracy is? When you go to the Microsoft site and complain about your unstable system, than in a very democratic way you'll gonna be kicked off in a less than second, telling you that you are responsible for your unstable system. Now that's the real democracy! -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I think the compromise is a good one - I have just updated to the newest packages in 10.04 and changed between the two themes: Human and Radiance. Human had buttons on the right and Radiance had buttons on the left. In the end I will stay with Human theme for the button layout, but change all its elements to Radiance - so I have Radiance with buttons on the right and it looks good. IMHO it can stay this way for 10.04, I bet there will be a bunch of themes for the both sides and we'll be able to gather some data from that as well - how many right-button themes and how many left-button themes there are in 6 months. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Yann The application icon for the window menu button was removed following this bug report - https://bugs.launchpad.net/human-gtk-theme/+bug/405426 It only affects the human gtk themes (Human and Human-Clearlooks), other gtk themes besides high-contrast still has application icons in their window menus. As a Human theme user I actually like this particular change, it cleans up the window title bar. The application icon can already be seen in the window list in the panels and the alt-tab dialog. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
-- Forwarded message -- From: J.G. Visser Date: Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 3:44 PM Subject: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment To: Pako Pako, I suppose you want a place in history as the top contributor of this bug report. You have reached your goal, but I do not see any really constructive elements in your last posts. You keep repeating yourself. You might consider if this is usefull anymore. The louder you shout, the more arguments you get from your opponents. Mr J.G. Visser Please stop replying to my private gmail account, so that the others 300+ users get misinterpret in this conversation, it is fair for those people to follow our conversation so they can easier make decisions and contribute to this bug. The louder you shout, the more arguments you get from your opponents. - The more of yours stupid comments here, the more I get inspired. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Folks, this bug is looking more like a mailing list every day. Can I suggest that we stop just poking at one another here. There are differing points of view, and insulting one another doesn't add to our ability to settle this matter. So, I'd suggest that we only add comments to this bug if they are adding data that could guide a decision. Neither Me too nor you nutcase posts get us any further, and will just lead to key people unsubscribing from the report. Mark -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
So you said that you are not prepared for small changes, well what about the huge change in (GNOME aka 3.0) It's a desktop design that is 360 degrease different from all desktops today. What would be your complain about? Revert my GNOME 2.0 back because I'm used to work in such a environment years and years back? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I agree with the comments Jeff Burns makes. For me personally the position of the buttons is not a massive issue, but I am probably not anything like the average user - I'm more in the power user bracket. The main issues with having the buttons on the left are: i) It may pose issues for some non-technical users, as Jeff points out. ii) It's hard to justify the change to people if no reasonable explanation has been officially given. When supporting other users I'll just have to say I've no idea why they moved them to the left hand side, which doesn't look good either for me or Ubuntu generally. iii) It appears from the number of comments here, and a vote on OMG, that this is a UI change which the community doesn't support. Distros go against the majority views of their users at their peril. iv) It's just one more piece of ammunition for those who continue to (wrongly) claim that Linux isn't ready for the desktop. v) The amount of fuss kicked up by a UI change like this saps productive energy from the community as a whole. There are better things which effort could be focused upon. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Pako Watched the screencasts so I could make somewhat of fair judgment. As far as I can tell window management buttons are still on the right :P. I'm kidding, though again I think even here I can generalize. I'd say Gnome 3.0 shell allows you to keep your old basic habbits, window management on the right, taskbar, some sort of menu, but allows you to extend them. I even deem it possible my mother wouldn't be confronted with any of the new features. Fact of the matter is, I was actually planning to upgrade that PC to Lucid and then stick with the LTS while it was supported. ;) Look, I'm not saying that an OS should be designed with 62 year old ladies in mind. But changes that impact very basic computer interaction patterns for some reason feel like they outweigh others by far. Things change in Gnome 3.0, but as far as I can tell they seem to be respecting the basics. And, changes that are there seem to have reason. Don't change things for the sake of change, or to differentiate. Make changes because they make improvements. (as I said before, no one would just changes the order of throttle and brake in a car, without a very good reason) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Btw,I should clarify. I don't think it's an outrage that Canonical threw the buttons over to the left in this beta. On the contrary, I think it was a great experiment. So an alpha/beta is the place to do it. It has spawned a lively debate and in this debate I'm simply expressing my opinion. I disagree with the idea as it stands and I believe it isn't wise to include it in to a final LTS Ubuntu. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
When support for LTS will expire in 2015, I assume there will be GNOME 5.0 which might be shipped without buttons at all, that's why it is better for you to start (sooner the better) to learn things used to do step by step. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Mark Shuttleworth Would data collected in Windows be considered useful? Since we're using this to make a UI design change the current UI shouldn't affect it right? What matters, presumably is how we interact with documents that will look mostly the same on any operating system. I will try to collect data in Windows 7, since that is what I use day-to-day. I expect to see my mouse mostly resting on the right since English language text is usually left-aligned, so leaving the mouse on the left would obscure it. I don't have a TV though so there will be occasions where my mouse rests at a random position on the screen because I'm watching a video. My point is that everyone uses their computer for different tasks, so without defining a framework (i.e. asking where does the mouse rest while writing an email, what about when chatting, now when writing a letter...) the amount of variables involved in what individual people use their computer for will seriously wreck any chance of receiving meaningful data. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Don't change things for the sake of change, or to differentiate. Make changes because they make improvements. (as I said before, no one would just changes the order of throttle and brake in a car, without a very good reason) I think differentiate is important. Every OS should have his own identity and not be a habits-clone of Windows. This change is a improvement or you didn't noticed that? You don't miss brakes in functionality and you have to move the mouse less. About your car-example: Better cars (Sprot-Cars, expensive Cars) moved the gearshifts to the steering wheel. ;-) More arguments for left: Gnome 3 is a radical change, the buttons not a bit. Grandma will return to windows or she have to learn a little bit. Changes is usual stuff in life! Gnome 3 have all important stuffs on the left side! touch. Apple slogan is: Think different ... and obviously it means be unique! Hey and they have real success with it. It's the simple truth that we have here a very conservative part of a community who is boycott and brake every change and avoid simple the progress. But okay put the buttons on the right and we are moving senseless to left-right-left-right... and Ubuntu follows the Winodws-Way without own identity. Poor stuff, I know... -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Hey guys, stop bitching and download today's metacity update in lucid. It lets you switch the button position through the theme, so human buttons are back on the right, ambiance on the left. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
fair enough -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On 27/03/10 13:19, Tom Harris wrote: Would data collected in Windows be considered useful? Yes, certainly. There'd be arguments about interpretations, but a good data gathering exercise would identify that. Mark -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Besides... I saw in the Ubuntu-Forum in Germany that the Threat about the new button-placing is poor in visits and comments. The Offtopic- Lucid-Threat are many voices that peoples loves the new look and way. I don't thing that the whole world is against that. And who's against, can change the opinion ... I wouldn't care much about it. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Let me mark the marketing in that statement: -differentiate is important -Better cars (Sprot-Cars, expensive Cars) moved the gearshifts to the steering wheel -Apple slogan is: Think different ... and First and last are pretty much the same. A comment on that better cars though. Euhm, a lot of these cars have the gear paddles to give 55 year old midlife crisising men that can afford them, an F1 feeling. Afaik, rally cars have the gear in the middle. F1 cars have it on the wheel because there's no other place to put it. That said, I chose brake and throttle with that in mind and because they are more essential. Concerning Ubuntu's marketing, last time I checked, it was something like, linux for human beings (that would include 62 year olds) and not Think different... (which till tis day is actually implied when using linux, so no need to shout about it :P) . So much for marketing, what about good science. Is it true improvement? My cursor doesn't spend most of its time in the top left, it's pretty much all over. Which seems logical when you're an intensive interleaved keyboard mouse user. But maybe we should postpone the shouting about science and senselessness until Ubuntu has a Mozilla FF Testpilot alike feature and we have real metrics. (as has been mentioned all through this discussion) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@ Bernhard: Wow, true. This was a really good idea what they did with the Metacity- update. If Grandma likes it on the right, so she can switching in a simple the theme... Dust for example. ;) I thing it's a good compromise - like it. This could calm the most of the present inscribers here in this list, no? Maybe a Ambiance-left (default) and a Ambiance- right is a idea from me. What about that? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Bernhard wrote -Hey guys, stop bitching and download today's metacity update in lucid. It lets you switch the button position through the theme, so human buttons are back on the right, ambiance on the left. Pako wrote fair enough -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
here in this list, no? Maybe a Ambiance-left (default) and a Ambiance- right is a idea from me. What about that? I'm sure those will be downloadable from gnome-look.org pretty soon! -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@ Spang (that would include 62 year olds) If we ask our grandmas what we should do with future technology, will not get far. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
* We will not get far -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Pako, Pako, Pako... My friend, you misinterpret me. But trust me, I understand what you are saying. 10 years ago I'd be with you on this debate/argument because I didn't have experiences that I do now supporting UI related stuff. Change is good right? Well maybe not sometimes... So when I say this is too small a change, it's because the change is incomplete, and just isn't worth expending Mark's precious political capital over at least until the feature is COMPLETE. There's a time to fight, and a time to strategically withdraw. This is the latter. Later it can be unveiled again when we've got a carrot, but until then I NEED that carrot to explain this change to my users that I support. Incomplete UI changes just don't work, you either have to go whole hog so something has demonstrably happened (again the carrot), or do nothing at all. I'm not against the UI changing. Gnome 3 so far looks really cool, and I've been an early adopter/tester of KDE4 in Kubuntu (and everyone who did knows how painful that was), and filing several defects along the way doing my part to help get it to something reasonably stable today, and I like KDE 4 better than Gnome as a personal preference. I'll probably start testing Gnome3 when I get a chance. I like most of the advanced interface in the new KDE, and probably will like Gnome3 as well. I don't like this small button change, but I don't hate it either. It's a meh for me *personally*. But don't get my professional and personal preferences confused. Because they are different by necessity, as are a lot of IT guys out there who have to support one thing for the common good, and prefer something else on their own desktops. The reason why my professional and personal opinion differs is below. I used to be IT, and now I'm in a Dev/Sustaining role for the last 10 years roughly. I've supported UI's now for close to 10 years and will give you a quick simplified example from my past that was on something quite similar. I've been on the front lines when a usability change was made on a product for one customer (with a proper defect for the change) that made reasonable sense and was logical, and we massively honked off 10 other major customers (or more). Their admin/secretaries use this tech stuff every day heavily (and have the ears of executives) and get quite cranky when things move since they run on auto-pilot on nearly everything from computers to phones. I mean absolutely enraged because two silly buttons moved and it interrupted their work processes. Many of my counterparts (including me) laughed at this controversy, because the buttons that moved were CLEARLY marked. I mean moving silly buttons around generated that much rage? Jeeesh. But after a second trip around and near death threats because people's cheese got moved I've learned to respect that average user, and secretaries in particular, regardless of my own sentiments. Much of the time you can swap out the ENTIRE OS, or their desktop phone and they'll get over it because it is something totally new and it's expected to relearn, (provided what goes in makes sense to them for how to navigate the product, and you still get grumbles). Move something small on an existing application or on the existing phone? Forget it, unless you get their buy in. They go ballistic. Keep them happy, the others in an organization fall in line normally, including their boss. :) If the boss's admin ain't happy, nobody's happy. This is where we are at with Ubuntu now. It's not longer the cool hobbyist OS at home, but it's actually moving into the more mature corporate space where we can't be quite as cavalier as before. That uptake has been accelerated largely thanks to the MS Vista debacle. Personally and professionally, I now have a bit of skin in how Ubuntu turns out. My wife was a secretary/admin for years, and has that type of mindset. She's brilliant for running UI related stuff by on nearly anything, particularly since she's part of one of the bigger target audiences regarding UI features. I keep telling her she needs to be a tester since she understands this UI preference stuff better than I, at least for what pisses people off. I had issues converting her to Ubuntu, but not too many overall. Some stuff was different, but overall it was close enough and logical enough that it didn't honk her off. (getting her to OpenOffice was a little interesting, until I showed her MS Office 2007, and no complaints since...). I did unveil this to her yesterday evening, without letting my preferences be known. It didn't go well... She was much angrier than anticipated. I truly didn't expect more than an eye roll really, because it's not that big a change right?Instead I got expletives, and why the hell are they moving my buttons??!?!?!, can't they leave anything along!?!?!? Generally whatever her reaction is, has been pretty dead on for the average secretary and admin who have exec's ears.
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Jeff Burns, Please write shorter posts because English is not my native language, so is very difficult for me to understand you. I have to compile my sentence before posting here and that's a time waste. ;) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Jeff makes a good point about his wife exclaiming Can't they leave anything alone??. We had similar immense pain when we upgraded to Office 2007 at my work. The office ribbon wasn't just viewed as a waste of developer time by our staff, but also caused actual affront. As if Microsoft had scrapped toolbars and introduced the ribbon very specifically to annoy our staff. A short article corroborating this experience : http://j-walkblog.com/index.php?/weblog/posts/office_2007_training/ (Yes, we upgraded anyway, but by god, yes, we needed a /lot/ of training and nearly two years later, few have anything good to say about the ribbon) As for the latest updates making the buttons theme-dependent, this is kind of good news, but I also worry that even simply offering a theme with buttons on the left will introduce very real support issues. For example, when supporting PC-illiterate staff remotely and without access to VNC/screen control - you may have to ask these people to move your mouse up to the top right of the window and click on the little x button. Well, that's not going to work if they've chosen a radiance theme, is it? A minor point perhaps, but we've been asked for data, so here it is. The way this change was introduced, the blind-siding and subsequent utter silence on the matter and the recent comment spam from Pako and to a less extent, Scholli, have made it extremely difficult for me to see the matter objectively. And I can't believe that there /still/ hasn't been any real counter arguments to comment #71. That comment, incidentally, was a touch over two weeks ago. I know. It feels longer. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Pako If what I said leads you to that conclusion, you're cutting a bit to much corners... @Bernhard scholli The theme dependent position is indeed somewhat of a compromise. I don't think it changes anything at the core of the debate though. Anyhow, I think I've done enough community participation (or whining) on this certain subject on launchpad. I've expressed hopes and thoughts. In the end the call is made by Mark and the design team. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@ Scaine What you think it's spam from me are only my intents for opening the mind, see the stuff from another angle (point) and show that most of the arguments don't haves the gravity they looks like at first moment. This threat is a meeting form I am against it-folk and I am in mission to give it a little bit paroli (to give sb. as good as one gets). I think it's a good marketing-gag, it contains usability-improvements and gives Ubuntu simply a new identity. I know I don't get many friends here in this threat, but I am talking for the peoples who like it so and even wish it very much the change stay. They don't know about this threat, because they don't have the need to search for it... and they don't know it's all in danger. ;) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
The theme-dependent buttons are _bad news_, for two reasons: 1) they make clear that the experiment is much more than an experiment 2) the reason for the switch was to put something new (and certainly great - though unfortunately secret, at the moment) on the right side: it means that whatever direction Ubuntu is going, custom theme users will be left out. Not to offend, but the only good news I expect may only arrive in 5 days. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
No Pietro. The custom-themes haves now the possibility to do their themes with the control-buttons on the left or the right (look down). The rest of the themes have it on the right, because they was made for it and they looks better this way. --- index.theme [Desktop Entry] Type=X-GNOME-Metatheme Name=Ambiance Comment=Ubuntu Ambiance theme Encoding=UTF-8 [X-GNOME-Metatheme] GtkTheme=Ambiance MetacityTheme=Ambiance IconTheme=ubuntu-mono-dark CursorTheme=DMZ-White ButtonLayout=maximize,minimize,close: !!! -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Bernhard First off, please read the Code of Conduct you signed. No need for the offensive language. Second, the updates thus far do not allow one to switch from the icons being on the left back to the right. The only thing I have noticed is the theme manager telling you that if you've got the buttons moved back to the right where they belong, that the theme you just picked was made for the buttons to be on the left. It will then move the buttons back to the left with the option to move them back where you had put them on the right. I see this as being more of a problem as it is now changing the options you manually made in gconf with no way to put them back other than gconf if you do not understand the wording and just click ok and the buttons are moved back to the left. They put in this much effort to keep the buttons on the left, yet don't put in the same amount of effort to just put in an option to pick which side you want the buttons on regardless of where they are set at any given moment. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I'm surprised no one has used this fun little tool: http://iographica.com/ Download it, and in a terminal run this: cd FOLDER (depends on where you saved it) java -jar IOGraph.jar If you wish, you can add a screenshot of your desktop for reference. Just click the options button (tiny little tool icon, in the middle of the button set, which is located on the bottom right), then click Use Desktop as Background. It will freeze a bit to do a screenshot, but then will finish. Click the options button again to return. Then click the big circle to start the mouse tracking. Minimize it now. It will begin tracking mouse movement. Keep it running for a while (3-8 hours). Then open that window back up, and move your mouse to the center of that image, and click the pause button. Then., click the save button at the top of that button set (which is located at the bottom right corner). Save the image, and upload it. The bigger a circle, the longer the pointer has stayed in that position. Now THAT's the data Mark might be interested in. :) Just upload the resulting image here and specify where your mouse was most of the time. My only hope is that the changes will be reversed. This simple change could affect the future of Ubuntu, and whether people will adopt it or not. Take Office 2007. People HATE it. Even after all that learning, they still want 2003 (and a menu for 2010 and higher). Some people don't even bother upgrading. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
More or less roughly scanning through this whole debate, one can observe a vast majority of contributors against this change of the UI with at least plausible arguments and illustrations. They frequently state to represent other (less experienced) users. On the other side are a few very explicit contributors with basicly three arguments pro: distinction from other OS's, marketing aspects and usability improvements. They make it themselves very hard by just discussing the opponents arguments as inferior instead of making their own arguments more plausible for benefitting the mass. At a side-line there is the Ubuntu leader, watching and waiting and sometimes throwing minor bones into the crowd. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Switching themes enables me to move the buttons to the right, e.g. switch to human theme or dust. If you still think it's not working as intended, please file a bug against metacity or comment here: bug 533758. If you want to comment, please describe exactly what you did, by switch icons do you mean the window control buttons? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
28 minutes of shorter mouseways with the control-buttons left. I do my usual work with the new adopt habits.?field.comment=28 minutes of shorter mouseways with the control-buttons left. I do my usual work with the new adopt habits. ** Attachment added: IOGraphica (Scholli) - 28 minutes (from 19-25 to 19-53).png http://launchpadlibrarian.net/42193876/IOGraphica%20%28Scholli%29%20-%2028%20minutes%20%28from%2019-25%20to%2019-53%29.png -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Albert H Take Office 2007. People HATE it. Even after all that learning, they still want 2003 (and a menu for 2010 and higher). Some people don't even bother upgrading. So why upgrading to GNOME 3.0 anyway? Let's stick with GNOME 1.0 -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Mark Shuttleworth As promised, here's an 1.5 hour mousetrack from earlier today. I figure any longer amount of time and the data is pointless because of the sheer number of different styles of task being performed. The lines obviously show mouse movement, the circles are the mouse not moving, bigger is longer time. It is mostly me checking email, reading blogs and reading the paper. ** Attachment added: 1.5 hour mousetrack http://launchpadlibrarian.net/42203817/IOGraphica%20-%201.5%20hours%20%28from%2019-06%20to%2020-40%29.png -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Mark Said: Collect data on what's interesting to you. Most of us do this because it's interesting, and we like both the company (that's you ;-)) and the domain. I can't guarantee that any contribution will make it into Ubuntu, whether it be a patch or a translation or a package or an idea. But they all make it richer, one way or another. And work that doesn't get picked up here is still part of the commons and may have an impact elsewhere. Interesting. Earlier on in the thread you were talking about how it's not a democracy and we shouldn't expect to be able to affect any decision. Now you've slowly changed your tune to say that: We'd like you to do a lot of extra work *for us*, which we *should have done ourselves before making this decision*. However, don't count on any of it mattering (because we've already made our decision, remember?) You're treating your developers as a commodity and I don't like it one bit. You also earlier on in the thread made mention to providing meaningful comments in this thread, and yet at EVERY SINGLE stage of the game you have avoided providing ANY substance. Even if it's not true, you shouldn't be navigating this thread anymore; I think it would honestly be better if you just quit replying. You have done nothing but make me more and more angry the more of your dodgy drivel I am forced to endure. I didn't even know who you were before this thread, but I now feel pretty dirty knowing the truth about Ubuntu and its leadership. Mark, you want the best for Ubuntu, but you haven't even thought about reconsidering the entire time, and it's sad you've taken such a close- minded approach to what I heretofore referred to as a community. What are you thinking, man? Just ignore this thread and make your change like you planned on doing in the first place-- trust me, it's obvious. Quit trying to play politics while giving everyone the subtle middle finger. I think it's time we parted ways. I have been thinking about switching distros to something else, and this thread has nothing to do with me caring about button placement (I couldn't have cared less), and everything to do with me doubting the leadership of a project that allows someone in your position to continue to dig a hole this deep. Please quit blowing hot air and go back to your board room. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@ Davin Walters: Mark said that the design decision in not under voting, but good thata (against or not left position) is welcome for the final decision... That's what he said... And I don't see any problem with that, it's something logical (Read post comment #110 and #167 for more info) Regards! -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
martincasc: I've re-read both posts carefully; It does not change my response. I don't feel like he ever really said anything in any of his posts. He would give an inch, take an inch. We haven't moved in 300 threads. Is this not obvious to anyone else? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@David Walters: Comment #110 (...) The default position of the window controls will remain the left, throughout beta1. We're interested in data which could influence the ultimate decision.(...) comment #167 Ā·(...) If you want to tell us that we are all part of it, we want information, and we want our opinion to be decisive. No. This is not a democracy. Good feedback, good data, are welcome. But we are not voting on design decisions.(...) I'm not quoting the rest of the comment, isn't neccesary... With this it's pretty enough -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@MartinCasc Yes, and I fundamentally disagree with pretty much every single one of Mark's responses to the criticism that follows in the previous *300* posts. There are so many instances in this thread where, as I just said, Mark writes two paragraphs which consist of absolutely *nothing*. Meanwhile, user after user pours their heart out giving him sound factual information on UI design. His response is to respond *as if* he is considering their post, but it is clear that he never has had any intention of being up front and honest with the community as to what all of this means when the whole thing he is planning comes together. That is 'tricky', at best, and quite possibly a flat-out refusal to share any information about future design plans. What that tells me is that there is no interest whatsoever in doing anything but slowly placating the community with a lot of non- information. It is offensive to those of us with brains. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
For me, the issue is almost solved: Theme now update buttons position, so one's can choose Dust for instance... I currently give it a try in a VM (I don't like Ambiance background color that remain in terminal windows even if background image is changed). Button layout reversal for new themes is also there, but the proposition seems to be there only at first time which imo, let's be open minded, does not let users try easily (with several reversals) and make their decision: Reversal should be proposed unconditionally for new themes. Installing Human, indeed, does not show application icon in application menu button? As several other themes... Maybe this is another remaining issue for those who want to remain brown? So, to summarize, IMO: -Always propose reversal for new themes. -Fix the application icon for menu button. Regards. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On 25/03/10 22:18, gabriel_samfira wrote: 1. I prefer to have Select windows when the mouse moves over them (or focus-on-hover), so my mouse is all over the place. I rarely close a window, but i do maximize and minimize allot. I understand that this is a relatively common preference, but it's only common amongst highly technical and sophisticated users. I'm glad to retain it as something an expert can enable (yay FLOSS :-)) but it won't be the Ubuntu default for the foreseeable future, and therefor can't easily inform our planning. 2. well..not *allot* of accidental closes, but enough to get me to pay more attention to what I am clicking. I do however (even now): - maximize when i want to actually minimize - minimize when trying to maximize Yes, I think this is a very valid concern. The use of the same styling / colour for both max and min buttons means one has to pay closer attention than usual. The pared back nature of the iconography compounds the problem. This happens mostly because i use Lucid at home and Hardy at work. We will continue to use Hardy until it is no longer supported. We try to avoid changing things in the workplace that don't *really* need changing (saves time and money). If we stick with a theme approach in Lucid that is foundational for future work, then a backport to current maintained releases would be appropriate, making it easier for people to keep a consistent portfolio of machines. Hope this helps a bit! Yes, thank you. Mark -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On 25/03/10 22:25, Atel Apsfej wrote: Good, finally some guidance. You shouldn't wait for people to think up data products on their own, that risks people spinning their wheels creating data that gets discarded because it doesn't meet your definition and leads to people feeling they are being ignored. We should learn from any data that's presented. If someone comes up with interesting data, we should gather what insight we can from it. And I would be cautious to define in advance the set of things that might influence us. In my experience, inspiration and caution can come from unpredictable sources, and quite usefully so. You and the design team are the only group in a position define what is acceptable data in your decision-making process. Putting forward some questions you want answered like you did above is helpful. OK, fair enough. In future, I'll be quicker to outline things that *might* be interesting, and encurage the team to do the same, but will still encourage folks to be inventive with their research and analysis. Otherwise we're not really crowdsourcing insight. But you could go further, and articulate a framework by which questions can be proposed by externals, accepted by the design team as important to the design process, and then answered with an acceptable data collection methodology. There are certainly some questions that could definitively be answered with a single data set. We could keep an eye out for those. But they are relatively special. In this case, I can't think of a single data set that would be definitive. But that's why I'd prefer to leave the floor open to folks to suggest ones that might. If you do not articulate a data feedback framework that is acceptable to the design team then how is anyone suppose to know what you think is and is not acceptable? If you don't have a process by which people can propose questions worth answering with data, how do people know what to collect data on? Collect data on what's interesting to you. Most of us do this because it's interesting, and we like both the company (that's you ;-)) and the domain. I can't guarantee that any contribution will make it into Ubuntu, whether it be a patch or a translation or a package or an idea. But they all make it richer, one way or another. And work that doesn't get picked up here is still part of the commons and may have an impact elsewhere. Mark -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Here's my little grain of data: My mouse pointer usually hovers above the right part of the screen simply because text on the screen is aligned left and on the right side it's out of the way. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Many right things have been said (and scarcely considerated, but that's another story), just one added observation: all comments of the form they're just buttons, you can change it, and partially also you can change distribution are simply irresponsible. _I_ can change it, and probably will. But I installed 20 Ubuntus, and certainly distributed it and suggested it to much many people in my LUG activity. I don't control their systems, and I _know_ many of them will have troubles when they upgrade. I also know they don't read this bug. For instance, I know my grandmother will call me saying something's wrong, and I will fix the issue on _her_ computer, and say sorry on behalf on Ubuntu. But next time, I'll probably install Debian. So yes, you can change distribution is a partially correct answer... though after putting so much trust and work in this one I suffer in admitting that I was simply very irresponsible in trusting in something that is not a democracy (in my ingenuity, I would have sweared that englightened dictatorship was just the perfect form of leadership for such a project). Notice _I_ will probably keep using Ubuntu: it's simpler, more up-to- date. It's just not something I can afford to publicize, install and distribute, now I know the decision making process behind it. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Colin D Bennett wrote If the window buttons are moved to the left, the scroll bar must also be moved to the left hand side. In my case and I hope in many of yours, I never use the right scrollbar since I'm able to use my touchpad scrollbar on my laptop, it is much faster and more efficient and I use only my right hand instead of both at once. For those who prefer to use the mouse they can find an option in Firefox that allows to use the third button as scroll (unfortunately, this option is not enabled by default in Firefox). With such adjusted environment I do not use right scrollbar at all and I work much faster and more efficient. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Pietro Battiston: I don't think you can be 100% sure that Debian (or any other distro) won't do something in the future you will dislike... Tech people think that non-techies (your grandmother) will ZOMG what happened to the buttons. Just try to explain that she has to click on the left now to close the windows and not on the right, and she'll get it in notime and forget about it. I have non-tech parents, too, with Ubuntu installed at home, and grandparents who learned how to use a mobile (at their age). It's just us who are too aware about these things (us, who read these bugreports and comment way too much on them). Your grandma will probably think, ummm there's no button here... but there! on the other side, that looks the same, let's click it and see what happens. Tadda! She won't care, they've changed it, ok, she'll get used to it. If she can use a computer, she will figure it out. It's still easier than Ctrl+W, Ctrl+Q, Alt+F4 or File/Quit ;) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Imre Gergely You are absolutely right! The example of a normal, average, everyday user is my sister. She has a Macbook, not because she knows something about computers or OSes, but she is an trend setter, she doesn't even know where the shutdown button is! So what really is important to her is hers programs, These are: Facebook and Skype. So, until these two programs work well for her, she did not care for the buttons, the colour of the desktop, sounds and even the colour of her computer. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Il giorno ven, 26/03/2010 alle 10.41 +, Imre Gergely ha scritto: @Pietro Battiston: I don't think you can be 100% sure that Debian (or any other distro) won't do something in the future you will dislike... I'm 100% sure it won't do something that the majority dislikes, justifying it with secret plans, because it has that obsolete but nice form of government called democracy. But we're OT. Just try to explain that she has to click on the left now to close the windows and not on the right, and she'll get it in notime and forget about it. I don't think she'll get used, after 10 years of Windows/Ubuntu. But even if she did, why should I make her exert useless effort?! I love my grandma. But we're OT. By the way, my grandma doesn't use skype and facebook, we're again OT. I'm sorry _I_ triggered the OT: my contribute for this bug was and is just if you extend _your_ experience to general rules without good reasons, you're only contributing to confusion, and that's all. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I agree, but my grandmother would not know how to change the layouts and not even she bother, I think you're making things confusing even though I am 100% sure you already know how to adjust your desktop by you measure. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
I just ended my call with my grandma on Skype. Asking her what side of buttons she prefer, she said Left, because she is a Karmic user, please point me how to explain her to change the layout (She wants to be an modern grandma). She desperately trying to do that and I can't help her. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
So maybe the first category of data should be: what percentage of the Ubuntu user base cares/notices/is pissed about this change. From ALL the users who use Ubuntu desktop. Because it aims to be for everyone not just for tech-savvy people, right? Go upgrade to beta at your parents/grandparents/friends, point out the changes and call them again in a week, see if anybody had any problems. For the ones who call you first, you can revert back to the old settings. If nobody complains but you, it's a sign that YOU care too much about it ;) OTI would rather b*tch about why there's 500-600MB of RAM used up after booting in Gnome, without any programs open, than button placing./OT -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Imre, why there's 500-600MB of RAM used up after booting in Gnome? Because there are more wishes than bug reports in launchpad, those wishes require Š° lot of RAM and processor power. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:18:42 - Warlon samps...@hotmail.com wrote: Here's my little grain of data: My mouse pointer usually hovers above the right part of the screen simply because text on the screen is aligned left and on the right side it's out of the way. I had this same thought. The mouse pointer does interfere with reading the text when it hovers over it. Sometimes it's even worse: the mouse hovering in an area may even cause tooltips to pop up and obscure the content of the window! This just happened to me as I was reading the Boost.Thread docs on www.boost.org - wherever the mouse rests, even in plain paragraph text, the section title pops up as a tooltip! -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 10:08:40 - Pako elektroban...@gmail.com wrote: Colin D Bennett wrote If the window buttons are moved to the left, the scroll bar must also be moved to the left hand side. In my case and I hope in many of yours, I never use the right scrollbar since I'm able to use my touchpad scrollbar on my laptop, it is much faster and more efficient and I use only my right hand instead of both at once. I use my touchpad scrolling and mouse scroll wheel *all* the time. It's great for scrolling as you read a page. However, when I'm reading a very long web page, ODT document, PDF, or source code file (i.e. 50+ screenfulls) and want to get from the top to the middle of the page, it is a complete waste of time to go roll, roll, roll, roll, roll, ... with the wheel or touch pad; instead I simply make a quick drag of the scroll bar thumb to the exact place I want to go. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@pako #438 So then run Enlightenment or XFCE. Ideally, everything (*nix, Gnome, KDE, XFCE, Konversation, etc) should have a developmental branch and a production branch; with nothing in the Dev version being put into the Prod version until fully tested. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
By some reason Debian GNOME works with only 90 MB. of RAM -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Yeah, Gnome uses a lot less than KDE, but XFCE uses even less than GNome, but of course true geeks ask GUI? What's that? We're in CLUI since the 70's man. No mouse needed. What's the fuss? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Mark: Even when you crowdsource information you still need a framework. Frameworks like Ideastorm or Brainstorm are crowdsourcing frameworks...frameworks you aren't using for your design decisions. It's just a weebit inconsistent to come back after-the-fact and claim you were diligently waiting for someone to have a crowdsourcing epiphany. If the goal was to crowdsource data...start using Brainstorm or another crowdsourcing tool as a framework and stated that is what you want the crowd to register their ideas over the design. And no, if you had communicated a need for questions to be asked, there would be no need for you to state your questions that interest you. Hell man, if you had actually used the crowdsourcing tools that you already have available to you, your questions could be slipped to be considered fairly with anyone elses. You could have seeded the crowdsource framework with your questions..under a pseudonym. Lets roll back the clock and lets say that on the day you introduced this particular experiment the design team opened up a ticket in Brainstorm that requested people to add and vote on questions that should be answered with data about the design change being introduced. And then every single member of the design team communicates that mechanism via blogs or twitter or bat signal or whatever. The Design takes X amount of days to let questions come in. They then choose Y number of questions (not the top Y) they deem are important design considerations and communicate those questions of interest widely again and state they seeking people to come up with how to generate data then you move on to crowdsourcing a data methodology for answering each of those Y questions. That is a coherent process for crowdsourcing data driven design. Anyone who really believes that crowdsourcing data methodology is a good idea would be following something similar as a process. And such a process does not exclude considering a totally left-field idea not driven through the process. Such a process does not take a way decision making at any step from the design team. But what that process does is proactively engage with externals in a time appropriate fashion and lets them know what feedback is desirable. Coming back 400 comments deep into a heated bug ticket and finally stating that you want the questions to be crowdsourced is, well, its something I don't have polite words for, but it certainly is not going to lead to data driven design nor is it a sincere effort to crowdsource anything. The crowd isn't in this bug ticket. The crowd is on brainstorm. And no Mark, this isn't about me. You stated flatly, belatedly, that _you_ wanted externals to provide data. I'm just the only one with enough experience pulling your teeth to get you to clarify that statement into something people can actually do something constructive with. You need to do better communicating in a timely manner how you want externals to provide feedback. If you continue to run design experiments this way your just going to burn up goodwill and you aren't going to get quality data. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Jefspa Leta: AMEN!!! Not defining what you want will not get you what you want; and that is what Mar kis doing. It's like going to a party and asking people Hey... you remember that one time that one guy did that one thing you know where with you know who? u yeah..suuure. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
just to correct my typo error in previous comment. works with only 90MB of RAM uses only 90MB of RAM. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
While Jefspa Leta brings up all good points, I don't see a need to keep saying could'a would'a should'a or I told you so to Mark at this point. I do hope Mark takes this to heart for future design changes. Most critics of the change fully understand that Mark is in charge and that this isn't a democracy. But even a dictator can be open-minded to constructive feedback and provide guidelines in advance for how that should be given. At this point, let's just get together what data we can that we think will help. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
To gain more data I posted a poll on the Ubuntuforums Community Cafe board. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=9031462 The reason for posting it there and not on the Lucid Lynx Testing board is to better to get a broader user base to answer (not only the beta testers). The poll seeks two pieces of information: 1. Where does the mouse pointer rest? M) Pointer tends to rest near the menu of the active window. L) Pointer tends to rest on the left side of the screen. C) Pointer tends to rest in the center of the screen. R) Pointer tends to rest on the right side of the screen. X) None of these. 2. Is there a marked difference based on the type of pointing device that is being used? M) Normal mouse T) Laptop touchpad (or other device) The 10 poll options reflect the corresponding cross correlation matrix. Hopefully this will produce some insight. Either by showing a patterns or by showing that no discernible patterns exist. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
aysui: Would you like to suggest a better engagement strategy to get Mark talking? He's been pretty reluctant to communicate about specifics in the role he sees externals playing in design decisions until I started poking him in the eye..over and over and over again. I'd like nothing better than to not have to do it this way, because it really doesn't make me look that good. But its effective, and I care more about seeing a workable process that provides a satifactory way to drive feedback into the design process than I do about how you or Mark think about me personally. I'm persistent in my messaging about better communication, yes. But I'm not berating him and I'm definitely not suggesting that he should have know better. He's human, he'll make mistakes. We all make mistakes. Mark however has a track record of being difficult accepting and acknowledging when he's made an error in judgement, in a timely manner. And in this matter I'm not going to push it so far as to get him to publicly acknowledge he's made an error in his communication strategy, there's no need for that. This is not a personal vendetta. But he does need to accept that fact, and understand how the lack of communication from him and the design team has impacted the quality of feedback he's getting now. I'm being persistent now, so that he'll commit to a better process for next time soon enough to impact design experiments in the 10.10 time frame. 400 comments deep into a bug ticket, several rounds with me, and its the first time he's mentioned crowdsourcing. That's a problem. That's a big fundamental problem. I think he needs to sit down with an hour of quality Jono Bacon time and have Jono sketch out a crowdsourcing process that the design team can commit to using that includes a coherent communication strategy. I expect Jono could greatly improve on my strawman process. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Everyone. April 29th, the release date is the scheduled release date of the 3rd LTS release...at this point, rather than copy Microsoft and release Canonical's version of Vista because of this Button-Gate; maybe it's also time to: 1) Resolve it the way the majority of people want it or... 2) Provide real-world data and reasoning for the button order and position change to the left or. 3) If 1 or 2 cannot be done (or done in time...) then to postpone the final release. A missed LTS release date is better than a messed up released LTS. Let MS release the MEs and Vistas to the world, NOT Canonical. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
** Branch unlinked: lp:~alexeftimie/+junk/gcc -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@ Pyramid Technologies What a nonsense. In what relations you can put together the Vista-fail with the buttons? 1. you are sure the majority want it? You want it. Peoples who didn't tried it for a long period will say firstly no. But this statement is generally not fair. 2. this is a fair point. 3. :O Joke? Why you did this provocations? Why did you say this rubbish? For throw nonsense-wood in the fire? You think this will resolve your wish and the fear about that nonsense you said will put the buttons to the right place immediately? Be fair and mature, please. The statement form Mark S. was clearly. He is looking for value datas. finsih. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Pako Until 2005, I ran Debian GNOME or jhbuild GNOME (on Debian) with only 96MB RAM. That was a Toshiba Portege 3010, you can look up the rest of the specs. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Maybe we could ask Steve Jobs and Bill Gates what they think and why they have chosen left and right layouts? Why not ;) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@scholli What a nonsense Such is your opinion. I have stated mine and you disagree. cool. So be it. In what relations you can put together the Vista-fail with the buttons? Vista was going to be this be-all-end-all-wonderful thing with the GREAT idea of the UAC.. just like how there is a GREAT idea of this button order/move as well as all of this new features in 10.04LTS as well. Beware all. beware. 1. you are sure the majority want it? Judging from here at 450+ posts, judging from the Planet Ubuntu blogs, other websites/blogs, I would venture to say YES, the majority DO want it to stay the way it is now in 9.x and earlier, the way it is in Windows. You want it Glad you got that. Peoples who didn't tried it for a long period will say firstly no. But this statement is generally not fair. People are creatures of habits and resist change without VERY good reason, which as you agreed to in my #2, has yet to be disclosed by Mark or anyone else responsible. I, we are waiting Mark. 2. this is a fair point. Indeed. See the above. 3. :O Joke? Why you did this provocations? I stated my opinion, which unlike this button order/move, has not prompted Buttongate and thousands of posts on websites, blogs, emails, etc. IF there is ANY controversy, it is not because of my opinion, but rather because of the move and order of the buttons propgated by the powers-that-be. THEY provoked. I, WE, responded. Why did you say this rubbish? Please refrain from stating your opinion as fact. This is not church. For throw nonsense-wood in the fire? See the above. Now moving on if we can... You think this will resolve your wish and the fear about that nonsense you said will put the buttons to the right place immediately? No. I will wait and see and if it is not to my liking, which I know about the gconf hack, but I know that doing that will break the UI on the DE and applications, I will simply move to Debian. Problem solved for me. I DO prefer to stick with Ubuntu, but so far that loyalty has been pretty one-sided. Be fair and mature, please. I TOTALLY agree. Mark? Are you listening? How about that explanation about the reasons for the button order change, button location move, and exactly what things are planned for the space on the right which in no way could possibly go on the left hand side instead? I, we are waiting. Yes, please. DO be fair. DO be mature. Mark, the cat is clawing the bag. Let it out already. The statement form Mark S. was clearly. He is looking for value data. Define data. Too vague. Too ambiguous. This one time this one guy did this one thing -- you know. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
450+ are not majority, 30.00+ are. How about that explanation about the reasons for the button order change Well, the time is running and there is still no particular reason and argument, why should be the right buttons retained. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
Re: [Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Il giorno ven, 26/03/2010 alle 20.41 +, Pako ha scritto: Well, the time is running and there is still no particular reason and argument, why should be the right buttons retained. Please, at this point we are all taking as _obvious_ that right buttons are to be retained _in absence_ of a particular reason and argument to move them on the left, and that such a particular reason allegedly exists but is secret and planned for a later release. Assuming that collecting (some sort of) data is indeed useful, it is the only thing that makes sense for the moment. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
As the debate is still alive and kicking, let met drop in example of an argument that has surely passed the board. (What about novice users, and their willingness to migrate) About a month ago I migrated my 62 year old mothers PC (pretty much used for PC-banking only), from XP tot Karmic. Something I would never have considered before Ubuntu times. Anyhow a long story short, the transition form XP to Karmic went quite smoothly, no complaints so far. I am afraid however, if I'd migrate that home PC from Karmic to Lucid, without putting back these buttons where they were, the first question would be to go back to Windows. I think thats a fear easily generalized. Moving those buttons will reduce the likelihood that people actually migrate from the most used desktop OS so far. I'm not even sure I would have gone Ubuntu all the way a few years ago, with those buttons over there. I may not be a kernel hacker, but as a computer science engineering graduate I wouldn't qualify myself a novice ;) -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Sprang, I agree. Every year there is a list that comes out of the most popular distros, and for quite a few, Ubuntu held that, but I really do believe that if this move goes through, Ubuntu will become as current and relevant in today's world as NeXtstep, BeOS, Amiga and OS/2 are. It's bad enough that we IT geeks have to do major workarounds to keep windows going for people, but now Ubuntu too? Is Canonical trying to compete with Microsoft for the most PITA OS to use? Maybe windowing shouldn't be square.. How about we make all windowing shapes circles instead? No one will care. Right? Let's go for the ugliest and most difficult OS to use... then we will be great, like Microsoft. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Pako wrote: 450+ are not majority, 30.00+ are. How about that explanation about the reasons for the button order change Well, the time is running and there is still no particular reason and argument, why should be the right buttons retained. I have yet to hear a compelling reason why to move the buttons to the left, other than Mac does it, and There is some cool (currently) vapourware coming out for 10.10. I'm dealing with a cranky 55 year old wife, 30 year old daughter, 80 year old father-in-law, and 80 year old father as it is for support. All of them go into who moved my cheese mode when flipping UI items around. Small UI changes that I don't even notice, and they go into some sort of fit on it. Then if it's for no discernible reason like this is, then I can't really explain it, other than there it is and I get grumbles back from them. If there is a cool feature that requires moving buttons around, then by all means bring it out, and maybe it'll be worth retraining for. At least then I've got a legitimate and visible example to explain this change in defaults. A carrot of enticement as it were. Although with both my father-in-law and father, I CAN'T allow their buttons to move regardless... They're easily confused and baffled by these electronic typewriters as they call them. Me personally, I CAN use it, but I find it just as counterproductive as the Mac interface so I switched it back. If I liked Mac, I'd have a Mac and I'd be the worlds biggest snob about it and frown on free OS Mac wannabes, and not likely to move to Ubuntu even with an interface change. Ubuntu's big selling point is getting people off Windows almost without them noticing too much thanks to the current Gnome UI, Firefox, and OpenOffice's familiar interface coming from Office 2003. With that said I think what is being (almost mistakenly) applied to both sides of the argument though is logic. For UI issues like this, much of the time logic has no place. I've dealt with these before at work with around a million users affected. Move around something on the screen, and let the anger begin.If something is to be moved around, it has to be clearly understood beforehand, evaluated by a larger focus group and not done on what seems to be a whim, and that looks cool. if people understand it, and the need to move things around, they go with it and accept it without getting so cranky as they are getting here. Personally I see plenty of room on the left side of the titlebar for features. Just right justify the text and VOILA! OK, I'm trying to apply logic to it as well... The emotional element of peoples attachments to UI appearances has to be taken into account, in spite of it largely being an intangible for datapoints. Mark - I'll address this bit directly to you, and understand I applaud everything thing you are doing here. You're on my most admired list. Understand I'm not against changing the UI. Some major UI changes are called for as this isn't the 1980's anymore and we're still not that far away from Xerox's original interface.Big UI changes are called for. Paradigm shifts even. Small changes where buttons are just moved without a good, easily understood, tangible reason (ala the feature carrot)? It just ticks people off and makes everyone a little irrational... Once that irrationality starts, it picks up steam as is demonstrated in this thread... good luck stopping it. My reasons for not changing this little bit of UI?: 1) Standards: Most UI's are Min, Max, Close on the right. Unveiling this *single* change right now doesn't seem like a good idea without something to back it up. 2) Ease of Use/productivity: Most of us I think are bouncing between Windows, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Redhat, SuSE and others. When using VM's as well on the box - Windows (or other OS) in that VM window starts getting confusing when rapidly bouncing between them. Moving back and forth now takes some effort that it didn't take before, even with no mistakes. 3) Judging from comments, the folks that like the buttons on the left seem to be power users who'll change them on their own, and the ones who like them on the right range from computer illiterate to power users. (possible generalisation on my part there, but Ubuntu's raison d'etre I thought was to be ultimately usable for all) 4) The new feature that the button move belongs to isn't cooked or released yet. Wait for new feature to integrate and test usability with said feature before rolling out theoretical interface advantage tied to that feature. It might not work as expected, causing all this churn for nothing. Actually I've noticed no feature ever goes as anticipated in the early design prototype stages. Patience isn't a bad thing here. 5) Gnome 3 seems to be casting a shadow over where/if those buttons will be anyway. WAIT for Gnome to finish their 3.0 UI improvements and tack on there where there is a longer runway.
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Thank you Jeff. You've said a lot of what is on my mind, as well as the mind of others, and you also included the issues that IT/Support people are going to face with this button order/move issue. I think at this point, I could list many things, but so many people have listed them so many times, in so many different ways, we are just going round and round... so let's move on from the b*tchfest and go with the next action step. Mark, UI Team, What's next? Where are we at now? Where are we going next? How will we get there? -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
** Description changed: *** As per the design team's request*** All bugs concerning the window controls are being duped to this master bug. All the decisions regarding the position/order/alignment will be dealt as a one. - Please centre the window title like in previous Human theme, and also re-order the window controls in classic order, positioned on the right side (menu - title - minimize, maximize close). Workaround To revert to old layout, enter in terminal: $ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/button_layout --type string menu:minimize,maximize,close - --OR-- - - Use this PPA: https://launchpad.net/~stownsend42/+archive/light-themes - This option will also fix the graphical appearance of the buttons. + The PPA is no longer needed as of the latest version of light-themes. Overview Canonical design team leader - Those pesky buttons - 2010-03-10 http://www.ivankamajic.com/?p=281 http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/03/17/s03e03-behind-the-screen/ (30-minute interview starting at 39:10) Mark Shuttleworth's reply (on this bug report) - 2010-03-15 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bug/532633/comments/110 + ~10 following replies === To maintain a respectful atmosphere, while commenting please follow the code of conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ . -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Now the sheer irony... post #404 and talking about spy software not found in Ubuntu. 404indeed. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Yes, Mark, if you can clarify a bit about what kind of data you will actually consider as a factor in your decision, perhaps people here can actually help you by providing that data so we can avoid arguments that just go around in circles. What are you looking for? Polls? Anecdotes? If polls, what would you like the poll options to be? If anecdotes, what specific things do you want people to test for? Believe me, most of the people here who are opposed to the change would love to be able to work with you to get you what you need to make a well-informed decision. We just need guidance on what will actually help you. So far, you haven't seemed to really take into consideration the valid criticisms that have been brought up (and, no, they haven't just been we're used to something else). You keep mentioning data, so it'd be great to know either what data you are currently collection and what userbase that consists of or what data you would like us to collect for you and how you would like that approached so that you do take it seriously. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
That should say currently collecting -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
aysiu: Yes this is one of the fundamental communication breakdowns between the closed door design team and the external community. Shuttleworth and the design team want data.. but they haven't communicated what that means. Why hasn't that happened? Is the team concerned that the passionate minority with game the system and heavily bias the data that is being collected? There hasn't been a general data collecting methodology articulated for any of the experimental design decisions. This, more than any individual design decision, is the fundamental breakdown in communication which risks hardening passionate contributors in the Ubuntu community against Canonical in leading this work. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
passionate contributing with 0.001%?? with such a poor percentage most of people in this list doesn't even deserve a launchpad account, nor to make decisions in the name of approximately 30.00 Ubuntu users, especially because they get the OS for FREE. Whether the new users will like the new layout? I do not know and nobody knows it. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
In terms of mouse heat map maybe we could get people to use the rather funky java based app IOGraph which tracks mouse movement and depicts it graphically. http://iographica.com/ I just downloaded it and ran it from the command line:- a...@wopr:~/Desktop$ java -version java version 1.6.0_18 OpenJDK Runtime Environment (IcedTea6 1.8pre) (6b18~pre3-0ubuntu1) OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 16.0-b13, mixed mode) a...@wopr:~/Desktop$ java -jar IOGraph.jar A window pops up in which there is a 'record' button. Press that, minimise the window (if you can hit the minimise button without the world ending) and you're set. Leave it running for an extended period and try to forget it's there. No cheating now! As an example attached is a woefully short image of my use over the last 8 minutes since I discovered the application. I was using google chrome to read news mail and do a bit of tweeting. I have attached one image with my desktop behind it and one without. The one with doesn't do well because I have a big fat black terminal which makes it hard to see the lines. Hence attaching both. Perhaps (if Mark is in agreement) we could have a bunch of Ubuntu community members run this for a day (or whatever their typical computer usage pattern is) and submit their own images ? ** Attachment added: IOGraphica - 8.1 minutes (from 22-04 to 22-12).png http://launchpadlibrarian.net/41999876/IOGraphica%20-%208.1%20minutes%20%28from%2022-04%20to%2022-12%29.png -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
This is the image without my desktop behind it. ** Attachment added: IOGraphica - 8.1 minutes (from 22-04 to 22-12)n.png http://launchpadlibrarian.net/4167/IOGraphica%20-%208.1%20minutes%20%28from%2022-04%20to%2022-12%29n.png -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
@Mark I don't know if this is the right place to give you data on those 3 items, but at the moment there doesn't seem to be a more suitable medium, so here we go: 1. I prefer to have Select windows when the mouse moves over them (or focus-on-hover), so my mouse is all over the place. I rarely close a window, but i do maximize and minimize allot. 2. well..not *allot* of accidental closes, but enough to get me to pay more attention to what I am clicking. I do however (even now): - maximize when i want to actually minimize - minimize when trying to maximize This happens mostly because i use Lucid at home and Hardy at work. We will continue to use Hardy until it is no longer supported. We try to avoid changing things in the workplace that don't *really* need changing (saves time and money). 3. For the first 10-30 minutes, every time i want to use the window controls, i go to the right first, and then remember that...they moved :). After that i consciously make the decision to move to the left (knowing that the buttons moved), and take great care on what i click. So it is not effortless. I have to think about what I'm doing, or i might close the window, lose some work and go out and buy a pound of ice-cream to ease my frustration. It does impact productivity on some scale. At least at this point in time, taking into account the time i have spent in lucid (2-3 hours a day starting with Beta1), i feel uncomfortable with the change. This happens mainly because i have to get accustomed to the new order every time i get home from work. Its even more annoying when i try to find the controls on the left side in Hardy, because i have gotten used to them in Lucid. It is frustrating when a simple task like maximizing,minimizing and closing requires you to think about *how* to do *what* you want. Hope this helps a bit! Best regards, Gabriel -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Hi Mark Maybe it would be an idea to setup something like: https://testpilot.mozillalabs.com/ Alpha/Beta/ Lon-term loyal users could then install a test-pilot package and opt-in to certain test that Canonical need done for feedback. You could then run say the heat map test for 5 days with buttons on the left and then 5 days with buttons on the right. I did some of the tests with the testpilot for Mozilla and it was not very intrusive and most importantly it was OPT-IN. That is key for this sort of direct data feedback. Dont just change take search feedback like was done in Karmic cycle with the Firefox addon ;) Many of us Ubuntu users are relatively loyal, but too many 'odd' tests/changes in the development cycle could scare us off. Make the controversial changes opt-in like test-pilot and then directly track the usage you need ;) I moved to Crunchbang #! Statler for some quite time during button-gate. (XFCE based on Debian Squeeze for Alpha) and will then track Debian stable. Any way, just an idea of how you can get the real data ( but must be opt-in if it reports data back to base) The only feedback you get without something like test pilot is us screaming here in bug reports when we think you taking a wrong turn. Most of us want Canonical to succeed but as we run the Alphas/Dev versions we also get spooked when we see potential for something embarrassing happening. Best of Luck -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
[Bug 532633] Re: [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment
Mark: Good, finally some guidance. You shouldn't wait for people to think up data products on their own, that risks people spinning their wheels creating data that gets discarded because it doesn't meet your definition and leads to people feeling they are being ignored. You and the design team are the only group in a position define what is acceptable data in your decision-making process. Putting forward some questions you want answered like you did above is helpful. But you could go further, and articulate a framework by which questions can be proposed by externals, accepted by the design team as important to the design process, and then answered with an acceptable data collection methodology. If you do not articulate a data feedback framework that is acceptable to the design team then how is anyone suppose to know what you think is and is not acceptable? If you don't have a process by which people can propose questions worth answering with data, how do people know what to collect data on? Generally speaking..when doing an experiment in a professional research setting you have to have a firm grasp on the questions you want answered and how you plan to collect data _before_ you do the experiment. You seldom just throw stuff together and see what happens. Neither of the questions nor the data collection methodology were communicated before this experiment with the button positions. Something to think about before you embark on the next round of design experiments. -- [Master] Window Control buttons: position/order/alignment https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532633 You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu Desktop Bugs, which is subscribed to metacity in ubuntu. -- desktop-bugs mailing list desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/desktop-bugs
