xscreensaver, any plan do drop it !!
Hi I know many people will not like me :) , but this just a question please don´t hate me :) is there any plan to drop xscreensaver or at less do a heavy change on it (the ugly lock login didn´t change since I think gnome 2 or even before and always you have to reboot your machine if you lock the screen and your keyboard layout is not English when you lock the screen because you can´t change the language back to English to enter your password !!) -- Best Regards, -*- If Linux doesn't have the solution, you have the wrong problem -*- ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: xsltwin32config.h and jhbuild
Why can't the necessary file be generated by Windows users? because configure doesn't run for people using standard Windows tools. Daniel, can you be a bit more specific ? What exactly does not allow people to run configure under Windows ? Lots of projects build fine under windows using the standard autotools set. people building from cvs like me just ignore that conflict, build and it just works. I would be surprised if that were true. You have to *remove* the file. If you leave it in a conflict it doesn't compile. To be honest, it has always bothered me before that this conflict is there, I just never took the time to look into it like Federico did. As James said, a conflict in a cvs update should only happen because the user has local modifications. jhbuild decides that the fact there is a conflict means a build must not be attempted, it's jhbuild decision to operate under that mode, and that's why it breaks in that case. It's not an human behaviour, it's jhbuild behaviour. jhbuild cannot do anything else. The conflict leaves markers in the file that will cause it to not compile. JHbuild can't make the difference between a user change and a conflict because of this setup. At this point the only thing that can solve it is manual intervention. Thomas Dave/Dina : future TV today ! - http://www.davedina.org/ -*- thomas (dot) apestaart (dot) org -*- I used to play with toy guns and knives with my daddy He never taught me how to kill -*- thomas (at) apestaart (dot) org -*- URGent, best radio on the net - 24/7 ! - http://urgent.fm/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: xsltwin32config.h and jhbuild
On Sun, Jul 03, 2005 at 04:24:38PM +0200, Thomas Vander Stichele wrote: Why can't the necessary file be generated by Windows users? because configure doesn't run for people using standard Windows tools. Daniel, can you be a bit more specific ? What exactly does not allow people to run configure under Windows ? Lots of projects build fine under windows using the standard autotools set. The serious libxml2 contributors on Windows don't run cygwin or migwin. Most of the recent contributed features to libxml2 have been done by those people. They don't care about cygwin compiled code, as they don't run it. And experience shows that on windows mixing code from different compilers just don't work (heck even switching to a different flag for one module usually lead to errors or crashes at runtime). people building from cvs like me just ignore that conflict, build and it just works. I would be surprised if that were true. You have to *remove* the file. If you leave it in a conflict it doesn't compile. To be honest, it has Then you never tried ! xmlwin32config.h and xsltwin32config.h are not included by build driven by configure, they will just get overwritten and the conflict with it (as conflict detection is made by searching for the conflict delimiters in CVS). I don't see how you could get to such a state. I said I would fix this. I don't see why you're jumping on this a few days later, maybe my post didn't make it to d-d-l (I'm not subscribed, I can't stand the flames anymore). So please put back you gun in your holster, I'm not a target, what I did was motivated, should not have broken people's build and I will fix the jhbuild side effect anyway. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Desktop team http://redhat.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: xsltwin32config.h and jhbuild
Daniel Veillard wrote: can you be a bit more specific ? What exactly does not allow people to run configure under Windows ? Lots of projects build fine under windows using the standard autotools set. The serious libxml2 contributors on Windows don't run cygwin or migwin. Most of the recent contributed features to libxml2 have been done by those people. They don't care about cygwin compiled code, as they don't run it. And experience shows that on windows mixing code from different compilers just don't work (heck even switching to a different flag for one module usually lead to errors or crashes at runtime). I am sure that the file could be generated with a WSH script on Windows. That should be available on all your Windows hackers systems, and doesn't depend on cygwin or mingw32. I would be surprised if that were true. You have to *remove* the file. If you leave it in a conflict it doesn't compile. To be honest, it has Then you never tried ! xmlwin32config.h and xsltwin32config.h are not included by build driven by configure, they will just get overwritten and the conflict with it (as conflict detection is made by searching for the conflict delimiters in CVS). I don't see how you could get to such a state. I think it is possible to run into problems with these files if you do cvs update, get a conflict and run make without rerunning autogen.sh. James. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: xscreensaver, any plan do drop it !!
On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 10:53 +0300, regatta wrote: Hi I know many people will not like me :) , but this just a question please don´t hate me :) is there any plan to drop xscreensaver or at less do a heavy change on it (the ugly lock login didn´t change since I think gnome 2 or even before and always you have to reboot your machine if you lock the screen and your keyboard layout is not English when you lock the screen because you can´t change the language back to English to enter your password !!) Someone needs to write a secure replacement. Locking should be handled by GDM IMO. -- John (J5) Palmieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: xscreensaver, any plan do drop it !!
On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 07:44 -0400, John (J5) Palmieri wrote: On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 10:53 +0300, regatta wrote: Hi I know many people will not like me :) , but this just a question please don´t hate me :) is there any plan to drop xscreensaver or at less do a heavy change on it (the ugly lock login didn´t change since I think gnome 2 or even before and always you have to reboot your machine if you lock the screen and your keyboard layout is not English when you lock the screen because you can´t change the language back to English to enter your password !!) Someone needs to write a secure replacement. Locking should be handled by GDM IMO. There's already a replacement, and it's called gnome-screensaver, and is in GNOME CVS right now. --- Bastien Nocera [EMAIL PROTECTED] Manchester United in Brazil? I hope they all get bloody diarrhoea - Brian Clough, on Manchester United's decision to opt out of the FA Cup to play in the World Club Championship in 2000. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: xscreensaver, any plan do drop it !!
On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 08:46 -0400, John (J5) Palmieri wrote: On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 12:56 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 07:44 -0400, John (J5) Palmieri wrote: On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 10:53 +0300, regatta wrote: Hi I know many people will not like me :) , but this just a question please don´t hate me :) is there any plan to drop xscreensaver or at less do a heavy change on it (the ugly lock login didn´t change since I think gnome 2 or even before and always you have to reboot your machine if you lock the screen and your keyboard layout is not English when you lock the screen because you can´t change the language back to English to enter your password !!) Someone needs to write a secure replacement. Locking should be handled by GDM IMO. There's already a replacement, and it's called gnome-screensaver, and is in GNOME CVS right now. Some people had some problems with it becoming a replacement. Not sure what they were and I haven't investigated it myself. Has it been vetted yet for security issues? The biggest problem with xscreensaver type locking is that if xscreensaver crashes your session is unlocked. This is why the author didn't want to link against external libraries if it could be avoided (and why we get ugly dialog). Replacing it with something else doesn't really solve any problems other than making it look better. I think we need to get GDM to start doing the locking. That way if it crashes the session exits. If we do that then we can use anything for a screensaver app. Please read the original thread, all of this has already been discussed: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnome.desktop/24408 --- Bastien Nocera [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's beautiful, it's like a monkey. -- Jean-Claude Van Damme ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: xscreensaver, any plan do drop it !!
On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 13:54 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: snip Please read the original thread, all of this has already been discussed: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnome.desktop/24408 And: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnome.desktop/21149 and: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gnome.desktop/21283 Enjoy --- Bastien Nocera [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm sure the England selectors thought if they took me on and gave me the job, I'd want to run the show. They were shrewd because that's exactly what I would have done - Brian Clough, on not getting the England manager's job. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Modifying GNOME-About to count users
I've been advocating a simple enter-your-email-we-won't-spam-you form I can't imagine any casual system will provide very reliable data so why worry about an email address. If it is the first time a person starts gnome, maybe ask them to let us know they are running gnome. Also, what about the many folks who discover Linux and go window manager hopping every week. It would be good to know who really uses gnome and is not just giving it a try. Another option would be something like a I am a GNOME campaign or something where users can really take the time to support gnome and let us know how many people are running it. At this point, it does sound like it will be better on the marketing list! Just my two cents. Eric ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Modifying GNOME-About to count users
On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 14:37 +1200, John Williams wrote: Essentially we propose modifying the GNOME About box to include a toggle that indicate the user's permission to activate a program that would periodically contact a central GNOME server. Information that would be transmitted and recorded has not been decided yet, but the prime requirement is to record the number of current GNOME users (not installations) on a (say) monthly basis. I can see the slashdot article now.. Robert Love ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Modifying GNOME-About to count users
On Maw, 2005-07-05 at 16:21, Robert Love wrote: On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 14:37 +1200, John Williams wrote: Essentially we propose modifying the GNOME About box to include a toggle that indicate the user's permission to activate a program that would periodically contact a central GNOME server. Information that would be transmitted and recorded has not been decided yet, but the prime requirement is to record the number of current GNOME users (not installations) on a (say) monthly basis. I can see the slashdot article now.. Its problematic to do any kind of automation like that - permission belongs with the company not the user in many cases. It may also trigger charges on GPRS networks and the like. Alan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: xscreensaver, any plan do drop it !!
Hi William, It does indeed seem that you have address many of our concerns with respect to the screen saver. Bastien filled me in. We are going to discuss including it in Fedora today and will most likely get some test packages and play around with it and give you feedback. On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 11:28 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote: Hello John, John (J5) Palmieri wrote: Some people had some problems with it becoming a replacement. Not sure what they were and I haven't investigated it myself. I encourage you and others to actually look at how I've been trying to design gnome-screensaver. I am eager to receive specific feedback. Has it been vetted yet for security issues? The biggest problem with xscreensaver type locking is that if xscreensaver crashes your session is unlocked. This is why the author didn't want to link against external libraries if it could be avoided (and why we get ugly dialog). Replacing it with something else doesn't really solve any problems other than making it look better. I think we need to get GDM to start doing the locking. That way if it crashes the session exits. If we do that then we can use anything for a screensaver app. I'll agree with you in principle that failing closed is better than failing open. However, failing closed with data-loss and disruption not an ideal solution (except for security experts and TSA employees). Talk to angry users who have been logged out and lost work. Of course, this argument applies equally to xscreensaver and gnome-screensaver. It is not true that using a toolkit for the lock dialog requires linking to toolkit libraries. I think I've solved this problem adequately by running the authentication checking and lock dialog code in a separate process that is embedded in the window using XEMBED. I decided to use GtkSocket for this, on the daemon side. It should be possible to do exactly the same thing using only Xlib. I have chosen not to duplicate code and also acknowledge that most likely I could not do it better than GTK+ does. Obviously, a trade-off. Using a separate process for the input processing, authentication, and non-trivial widgetry is a big win in terms of security. Replacing the input dialog is only one of the many goals of gnome-screensaver and not one of the most important ones. It is more important that gnome-screensaver allows a system administrator to set mandatory policy for screensaver themes and locking. It is difficult to talk about system security when any any user can disable the screensaver altogether or use a theme that displays porn and the system administrator can't do anything about it. On the other hand, some systems require that the screen never be locked. Setting this kind of policy is impossible to do with xscreensaver. Currently, gnome-screensaver uses GConf for settings and policy. At the moment this requires it to link to the GConf libraries. The use of GConf is an implementation detail to gnome-screensaver. It is hidden within the GSPrefs object. I think it should be possible to use some kind of proxy object via DBus to get these settings and changes. I am not familiar enough with DBus to know how one can up a trust relationship between two objects. Since it is important that the settings come unaltered from GConf I have decided (for now) to link directly to the GConf libraries. gnome-screensaver is about a lot more than making it look better. Let's try to move the conversation past that point. I've tried to put some information in the Wiki: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeScreensaver I'll be happy to try to answer any specific questions and criticism. Thanks, Jon -- John (J5) Palmieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
switching to g-c-c shell? [Was: Re: Control center and capplet merging]
On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 14:11 -0400, Rodney Dawes wrote: Merging items could be useful. However, I don't think just shoving the same existing UI into multiple tabs in a single dialog will help really. It will just mean less things in the menu, and more confusion to users who are looking for things that are no longer there. See gnome-control-center. This is in gnome upstream now. However, it is totally hidden. :-/ Seems a bit annoying for me too, in fact, I've been working during 2.11 to get gnome-control-center in shape, by adding better/faster layout functions, RTL support and accessibility support (all of this is now in CVS [1]), now I'd like to propose it as the default way to access preferences. Some may think that it could encourage people to add more capplets, but that's already happening, in the last 2 releases we've added Multimedia systems selector, Remote desktop and Removable drives and media, so we should at least find a way for not punishing users because we don't follow our own rules :) (HIG says that when there are more than 15 elements in a menu, better think in displaying information in other way) So here's my vote to get rid of that horrid submenu :) Regards [1] might look like this: http://www.gnome.org/~carlosg/stuff/control-center/g-c-c.png -- dobey On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 09:14 -0400, Eric Larson wrote: On the usability front, I am not sure it is best to merge tools. While it does make some sense it could also be more confusing to the user because it forces the user to deal with fonts when they only want to change the theme. I think the larger issue is not how many system/admin tools there are but rather how they are organized. This is a subtle difference but I think it makes some sense. BTW, I am using debian unstable if anyone would like to know what I am seeing. The Desktop menu on the panel has a huge amount of options which are organized into one long list. It seems things could be better by having an actual control panel that could help to organize different areas better. Something in nautilus where the view shows a title and break before showing icons specific to that group could be helpful in organizing the mass of preferences while keeping each individual interface clean and simple. Although, I am a bit bias, Ximian desktop does this. It needs work of course because it is pretty out of date, but if we consider things like windows users and mac users, a control panel type window that shows preferences in an organized fashion may be very usable. This is Just my two cents of course :) I am not sure of the current scope or context of this problme so I apologize in advanced if it is not relevant. Eric ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
[PROPOSAL] services-admin from g-s-t for 2.12
Hi everybody!, I haven't seen any proposal in the whole 2.11 period, so here's one to break the ice: I'm proposing services-admin from gnome-system-tools for 2.12, the last g-s-t version (1.3.0[.x]) compiles it by default, featuring a dead easy GUI [1] to activate/deactivate services, both in real time and at computer startup. It's still missing more descriptions to handle the most used services, but that's an easy task. Hope you like it [1] http://www.gnome.org/~carlosg/stuff/gst/new-services-2.png ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: [PROPOSAL] services-admin from g-s-t for 2.12
g-s-t is already part of gnome, right? So presumably including additional g-s-t tools is up to the discretion of the g-s-t maintainers? -Rob On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 19:46 +0200, Carlos Garnacho wrote: Hi everybody!, I haven't seen any proposal in the whole 2.11 period, so here's one to break the ice: I'm proposing services-admin from gnome-system-tools for 2.12, the last g-s-t version (1.3.0[.x]) compiles it by default, featuring a dead easy GUI [1] to activate/deactivate services, both in real time and at computer startup. It's still missing more descriptions to handle the most used services, but that's an easy task. Hope you like it [1] http://www.gnome.org/~carlosg/stuff/gst/new-services-2.png ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Application/System Tools vs System/Administration
That's close but that talks about Preferences and Administration. I'm talking about System Tools and Administration. On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 06:43 +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: quote who=Rob Adams I think that the separation of these two menus is confusing. http://live.gnome.org/PreferencesRevisited - Jeff ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: switching to g-c-c shell? [Was: Re: Control center and capplet merging]
On Wed, Jul 06, 2005 at 03:31:58PM -0400, Havoc Pennington wrote: On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 19:37 +0200, Carlos Garnacho wrote: Some may think that it could encourage people to add more capplets, but that's already happening, in the last 2 releases we've added Multimedia systems selector, Remote desktop and Removable drives and media, so we should at least find a way for not punishing users because we don't follow our own rules :) Right or we could just fix the problem - wait that would be INSANE ;-) If we can't get rid of at least Multimedia systems selector we sure do suck. You could porbably put multimedia systems selector stuff as gconf keys and enable it there. The problem is that this stuff becomes buried and for people who want to change it for whatever purpose it becomes an egg hunt. In these cases, it would be good to be able to find a way to get access without too much trouble like a troubleshooter system that tells you where to go if the default multimedia stuff doesn't work. Taking a view of an undirected graph, all pieces of information should connected. My two cents. sri ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: switching to g-c-c shell? [Was: Re: Control center and capplet merging]
On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 14:15 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: In these cases, it would be good to be able to find a way to get access without too much trouble like a troubleshooter system that tells you where to go if the default multimedia stuff doesn't work. I don't want to be too sarcastic ;-) but if we can write a wizard to fix it, why don't we just fix it to begin with without the user clicking next a few times? I'm sure there are a million excuses for this control panel but they are all excuses in my book. We can and should do better (especially the full distributions such as Fedora and Ubuntu who could fix the whole stack). All three words in this menuitem are technobabble and the dialog itself is full of technobabble; plus in most cases changing anything in the dialog is going to break your system. I do see the value in configuring a custom default video sink though. Let me go do that now. Not. Havoc ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
eggcups (and libgnomecups) for 2.12
Hi, Looking at the schedule I thought I'd missed the time period left for new modules, but looking again it appears we still have a small amount of time. I'd like to propose eggcups for 2.12. For more information about eggcups, see: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-announce-list/2005-June/msg00033.html And particularly: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2004-July/msg00126.html Getting eggcups in 2.12 would also mean libgnomecups (presumably in the Desktop platform). Does that sound reasonable? eggcups (and the revamped libgnomeprint print dialog) have undergone a lot of testing in Fedora, and I think they're ready for inclusion in GNOME. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Modifying GNOME-About to count users
On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 16:48 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: Join Friends of GNOME and celebrate easy to use software for $OS! (email form) What question are we asking? :-) I *think* we're asking 'how many users of GNOME are there', not 'how many discovered gnome-about in their panel and then decided to fill out a form for an organization they know nothing about'. That is so true. However I believe there is no harm in pursuing both options right now. Imperfect numbers (that catch a less-than-100-percent proportion of GNOME users) have the redeeming feature of establishing a lower bound on the count, which is better than nothing. Whose toes would we be stepping on if we pushed this Friends of GNOME thing? I can not see any objection to it other than it is not ideal for counting GNOME users. So, if I can help in any way (I have (X)HTML/CSS skills and (ver) modest shell/perl/C/C++/java skills) please let me know. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: switching to g-c-c shell? [Was: Re: Control center and capplet merging]
--- Havoc Pennington [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 19:37 +0200, Carlos Garnacho wrote: Some may think that it could encourage people to add more capplets, but that's already happening, in the last 2 releases we've added Multimedia systems selector, Remote desktop and Removable drives and media, so we should at least find a way for not punishing users because we don't follow our own rules :) Right or we could just fix the problem - wait that would be INSANE ;-) just feels better quoted in that piece of sarcasm, even if we do an enviable work and reduce the number of capplets without moving them from the menu, we will have still a growing blob of uncategorized settings (at least, I think that the tendence to grow is quite noticeable, and even more if we mix at some point g-c-c and g-s-t) I really think that, while the PreferencesRevisited page in l.g.o has pretty good ideas, we still should try to show a categorized view of all preferences, instead of letting users try their luck in the menu (what does Session beside Sound? Why there's a separate sublevel for accessibility? ... ;) So, said this, IMHO fixing one problem is not an excuse to leave the other unfixed If we can't get rid of at least Multimedia systems selector we sure do suck. :) Regards Havoc __ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, más seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Modifying GNOME-About to count users
quote who=Luis Villa I *think* we're asking 'how many users of GNOME are there' Broadly, yes, but what we've discussed is establishing multiple data sources (however reliable, having datapoints with caveats is better than nothing) as well as providing encouragement through momentum. - Jeff -- OSCON 2005: August 1st-5th http://conferences.oreillynet.com/os2005/ Two words: Japanese technofetishism. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Application/System Tools vs System/Administration
quote who=Rob Adams That's close but that talks about Preferences and Administration. I'm talking about System Tools and Administration. In many ways, they're in it together. One way of getting rid of crapplets is by integrating them into more useful locations - you could do the same thing with the floppy formatter. Imagine - Nautilus lovingly formatting CDRWs, USB keys, floppies, whatever. :-) - Jeff -- OSCON 2005: August 1st-5th http://conferences.oreillynet.com/os2005/ Everything I knew about TCP/IP I had downloaded the same day I started hacking the net code. - Alan Cox ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
