Re: loomio
If the tool looks intersting, then an extract of the conclusions could be posted to the devel-list. Regards Leslie Mr. Leslie Satenstein 50 years in Information Technology and going strong. Yesterday was a good day, today is a better day, and tomorrow will be even better.mailto:lsatenst...@yahoo.com alternative: leslie.satenst...@gmail.com SENT FROM MY OPEN SOURCE LINUX SYSTEM. --- On Sun, 4/14/13, Andy Tai a...@atai.org wrote: From: Andy Tai a...@atai.org Subject: Re: loomio To: אנטולי קרסנר tomback...@gmail.com Cc: gnome desktop devel desktop-devel-list@gnome.org Date: Sunday, April 14, 2013, 3:43 PM GNOME is a free software project where all the decision making process should be transparent. Mailing lists, for example, are transparent. The tool you recommend will go against the spirit of openness and community. On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 1:36 AM, אנטולי קרסנר tomback...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I found a tool for collaborative decision making and brainstorming called loomio: https://www.loomio.org/ It's open for private beta, and I think Gnome, as a community project, can really benefit from using it. Currently the communication between people in the project is done in several channels not connected to each other: mailing list, GnomeLive wiki and IRC channels. All three of them treat all text as just plain text, meaning the computer doesn't provide us tools for specific content such as brainstorming, ideas, plans, schedules, etc. Loomio doesn't provide all of these things, but it's a great tool for a community to use for managing ideas and decisions. What do you think? Anatoly ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list -- Andy Tai, a...@atai.org, Skype: licheng.tai Year 2013 民國102年 自動的精神力是信仰與覺悟 自動的行為力是勞動與技能 -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: loomio
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 05:21:15PM +0100, Marco Scannadinari wrote: [0] (Restricted in that users do not know that it exists, or that they are allowed to participate. And if they do, they may not be notified of a decision meeting when it occurs.) I don't get this at all. This implies that there are decision meetings and that the decision is taken equally by the number of people part of the decision. I don't see how having a web based tool changes anything regarding being able to be allowed to participate. I think it is nice that it will be tried out in practice, but please don't assume all kinds of things that are somehow supposed to happen. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: loomio
On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Olav Vitters o...@vitters.nl wrote: On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 05:21:15PM +0100, Marco Scannadinari wrote: [0] (Restricted in that users do not know that it exists, or that they are allowed to participate. And if they do, they may not be notified of a decision meeting when it occurs.) I don't get this at all. This implies that there are decision meetings and that the decision is taken equally by the number of people part of the decision. I don't see how having a web based tool changes anything regarding being able to be allowed to participate. They do exist. We in the marketing team make tactical and strategic decisions all the time. It might be in code space, but other teams do use them. I think this particular tools documents what decision was made and in what context. That's a little hard to do if you have to scan through emails at least for hte marketinig team. Of course it implies that we have some discipline to do this. :-) sri I think it is nice that it will be tried out in practice, but please don't assume all kinds of things that are somehow supposed to happen. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: loomio
On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 01:49:48PM -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Olav Vitters o...@vitters.nl wrote: On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 05:21:15PM +0100, Marco Scannadinari wrote: [0] (Restricted in that users do not know that it exists, or that they are allowed to participate. And if they do, they may not be notified of a decision meeting when it occurs.) I don't get this at all. This implies that there are decision meetings and that the decision is taken equally by the number of people part of the decision. I don't see how having a web based tool changes anything regarding being able to be allowed to participate. They do exist. We in the marketing team make tactical and strategic decisions all the time. It might be in code space, but other teams do use them. I think this particular tools documents what decision was made and in what context. That's a little hard to do if you have to scan through emails at least for hte marketinig team. Of course it implies that we have some discipline to do this. :-) So you want to have random people suddenly join, be of the decision and have equal say? I find that a little bit weird. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: loomio
On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 01:49:48PM -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Olav Vitters o...@vitters.nl wrote: On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 05:21:15PM +0100, Marco Scannadinari wrote: [0] (Restricted in that users do not know that it exists, or that they are allowed to participate. And if they do, they may not be notified of a decision meeting when it occurs.) I don't get this at all. This implies that there are decision meetings and that the decision is taken equally by the number of people part of the decision. I don't see how having a web based tool changes anything regarding being able to be allowed to participate. They do exist. We in the marketing team make tactical and strategic decisions all the time. It might be in code space, but other teams do use them. I think this particular tools documents what decision was made and in what context. That's a little hard to do if you have to scan through emails at least for hte marketinig team. Of course it implies that we have some discipline to do this. :-) So you want to have random people suddenly join, be of the decision and have equal say? I find that a little bit weird. Mailing lists are not designed for vote-taking, proposals, and such - the primary contents of nearly all mailing lists are discussions and announcements. If someone posts a proposal on gnome-devel, for example, it would not be efficient or easy for each user to give their approval: Yeah I love this idea please implement it, I agree., I am not in favor because $REASONS, etc, etc. There is no ticket system for taking in votes, and no standardisation in the voting and discussion procedures. It would be even harder for the poor guy who has to collect in all of the votes, which would mean discerning how much in favour the votee is of the proposal, and having to hand-file the results. With loomio, this process is automated and it is a dedicated service for these taks. At the very least, GNOME could have a test-run of it for a month or so. -- Marco Scannadinari ma...@scannadinari.co.uk ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: loomio
So you want to have random people suddenly join, be of the decision and have equal say? I find that a little bit weird. As opposed to the method that we have now which is..? -- Marco Scannadinari ma...@scannadinari.co.uk ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: loomio
On Tue, 2013-04-16 at 22:08 +0100, Marco Scannadinari wrote: So you want to have random people suddenly join, be of the decision and have equal say? I find that a little bit weird. As opposed to the method that we have now which is..? (I cannot speak for all teams, as I'm not in all teams. Anybody feel free to correct me please.) Most teams have meetings sometimes, mostly IRC based (though some also have phone or Google Hangouts as far as I know). Except for board and release-team, team membership is not exclusive / defined, and (except for board) meetings are public. Newcomers and lurkers are welcome to meetings and to provide input to influence decisions, but when it comes to hard voting (if decision making process is not consense-based) I'd expect only established people to feel like taking part anyway, or at least expect their votes to have way more weight. In the end that's how I understand meritocracy. Also see section 5.5.2 Community of http://www.dgsiegel.net/foss-development-processes andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: loomio
On Tue, 2013-04-16 at 13:49 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: I think this particular tools documents what decision was made and in what context. That's a little hard to do if you have to scan through emails at least for hte marketinig team. Of course it implies that we have some discipline to do this. :-) As an example, links to emails with release-team meeting minutes are listed at https://live.gnome.org/ReleasePlanning/Meetings . Would like to know a specific example why this might not be sufficient, to understand the problem better (plus if a problem actually exists). andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
