Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

[Christian Hergert]

On 09/20/2018 02:19 AM, Allan Day wrote:
> I've written some updated guidelines for the initiative
> ,
> and I'd appreciate it if people could check them over.

>From the link:

> "There is no need for the Quit menu item and the recommendation is to
remove it from all locations."

 - What about applications that have multiple windows? It seems
cumbersome to track down all your windows to ensure the application exits.

 - If we were to do this in conjunction with systemd/cgroup2 CPU
priority for foreground/background applications (like Android) I'd feel
a lot better about it.

 - I'm also concerned due to how many applications we've had over the
years that get themselves into various types of spin loops. Do we want
to rely on the compositor/shell for force quit?

 - Perhaps this also should be attempted in conjunction with
save/restore session APIs like the old days of SMClient so that we are
more free to kill/freeze background applications on constrained devices?

-- Christian
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Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

[Nathan Graule via desktop-devel-list]

I feel like having the primary menu hidden in an in-window navigation 
app would be a regression from current, as a primary menu may apply 
anywhere, and having the user modify (and especially here, undo) 
application state in order to access a particular menu item (that, 
again, by its definition can apply anywhere in the app) would lead to 
end-user frustration.


The "apps with sidebar" example is IMHO best as both menus are 
displayed and have a position that makes sense, and most importantly, 
both are visible at all times.
3.28 with app menu displayed in the application top bar best describes 
what to be would be a good behavior for primary menus.

Nathan Graule


Le jeu. 20 sept. 2018 à 11:19, Allan Day  a écrit :

Hi all,

As previously discussed, we're planning to retire app menus this 
development cycle. The aim is to remove all application menus by 
3.32.0.


I've written some updated guidelines for the initiative, and I'd 
appreciate it if people could check them over.


We're also hoping to sneak in a couple of other UI changes at the 
same time. I wanted to flag these here, in case there are any 
objections. They are:
Grouping the Preferences menu item with the other "app" menu items 
(Keyboard Shortcuts, Help, About).
Changing the name of the about menu item from "About" to "About 
".
If this all seems OK, I'll announce the initiative more widely and 
start filing issues against the affected applications.


Thanks,

Allan

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Re: [GitLab] Gravatar vs libravatar

[Carlos Soriano]

Apologies, hit reply too fast.

Sure, I’ll get in touch with them to find out what that means.


That would be great, thanks. It's clear that we eventually want to have an
alternative to Gravatar... let Andrea, "wicked" or me know what are your
findings.

Cheers

On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 at 18:03, Carlos Soriano  wrote:

> I'm not sure, contact Andrea Veri for more. We definitely got dissapointed
> by finding this suddenly, and we should have investigated a bit more before
> hand. So for now sysadmins wants it disabled.
>
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 at 17:26, Alexandre Franke  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 3:52 PM Carlos Soriano 
>> wrote:
>> > Right we read that too, although it doesn't give very high hopes.
>>
>> How so? The maintainer was alone and wanted to stop so he announced
>> the stop with a few months notice, but many people stepped up and have
>> formed a team. One can read their coordination effort in public
>> meeting minutes on their wiki. So instead of the alarming “the service
>> is shutting down” you reported here, it actually is getting stronger
>> maintainership. If that is not hopeful news, I don’t know what will do
>> it for you.
>>
>> > The main problem is the second point, it just redirects stuff to
>> Gravatar, so not much point (and quite shady imho)
>>
>> That part is indeed concerning and requires clarification.
>>
>> > If someone wants to help with that and contact libravatar developers
>> feel free to do so.
>>
>> Sure, I’ll get in touch with them to find out what that means.
>>
>> Now here’s a question because what happens is not clear to me: did the
>> libravatar call all redirect to gravatar, or just some of them? In the
>> latter case, maybe reverting was a hasty decision as reducing the
>> number of calls, while not as perfect as we expected, is still
>> progress.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> --
>> Alexandre Franke
>> GNOME Hacker
>>
>
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Re: [GitLab] Gravatar vs libravatar

[Carlos Soriano]

I'm not sure, contact Andrea Veri for more. We definitely got dissapointed
by finding this suddenly, and we should have investigated a bit more before
hand. So for now sysadmins wants it disabled.

On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 at 17:26, Alexandre Franke  wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 3:52 PM Carlos Soriano  wrote:
> > Right we read that too, although it doesn't give very high hopes.
>
> How so? The maintainer was alone and wanted to stop so he announced
> the stop with a few months notice, but many people stepped up and have
> formed a team. One can read their coordination effort in public
> meeting minutes on their wiki. So instead of the alarming “the service
> is shutting down” you reported here, it actually is getting stronger
> maintainership. If that is not hopeful news, I don’t know what will do
> it for you.
>
> > The main problem is the second point, it just redirects stuff to
> Gravatar, so not much point (and quite shady imho)
>
> That part is indeed concerning and requires clarification.
>
> > If someone wants to help with that and contact libravatar developers
> feel free to do so.
>
> Sure, I’ll get in touch with them to find out what that means.
>
> Now here’s a question because what happens is not clear to me: did the
> libravatar call all redirect to gravatar, or just some of them? In the
> latter case, maybe reverting was a hasty decision as reducing the
> number of calls, while not as perfect as we expected, is still
> progress.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Alexandre Franke
> GNOME Hacker
>
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Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

[Bastien Nocera]

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 15:07 +0200, Alexandre Franke wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:52 PM Allan Day  wrote:
> > To be honest, I'm not sure how successful the keyboard shortcut
> > windows
> > have been and I suspect that they're not being used a great deal.
> 
> What are you basing this on? Did you get specific feedback about
> that,
> or was there a user testing session that showed this? I have the
> exact
> opposite feeling, solely based on my own experience: I do use the
> shortcut window often and I find it very valuable.

I also think that the least amount of user documentation is necessary,
the better. The keyboard shortcuts dialogue in Videos is invaluable. 

Its contents used to be in the README file, which users wouldn't see,
the user documentation still shows the old interface (from 4 years
ago), and I'd rather not rely on user docs if I can help it.

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Re: [GitLab] Gravatar vs libravatar

[Alexandre Franke]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 3:52 PM Carlos Soriano  wrote:
> Right we read that too, although it doesn't give very high hopes.

How so? The maintainer was alone and wanted to stop so he announced
the stop with a few months notice, but many people stepped up and have
formed a team. One can read their coordination effort in public
meeting minutes on their wiki. So instead of the alarming “the service
is shutting down” you reported here, it actually is getting stronger
maintainership. If that is not hopeful news, I don’t know what will do
it for you.

> The main problem is the second point, it just redirects stuff to Gravatar, so 
> not much point (and quite shady imho)

That part is indeed concerning and requires clarification.

> If someone wants to help with that and contact libravatar developers feel 
> free to do so.

Sure, I’ll get in touch with them to find out what that means.

Now here’s a question because what happens is not clear to me: did the
libravatar call all redirect to gravatar, or just some of them? In the
latter case, maybe reverting was a hasty decision as reducing the
number of calls, while not as perfect as we expected, is still
progress.

Cheers,

-- 
Alexandre Franke
GNOME Hacker
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Re: [GitLab] Gravatar vs libravatar

[Carlos Soriano]

Right we read that too, although it doesn't give very high hopes.

The main problem is the second point, it just redirects stuff to Gravatar,
so not much point (and quite shady imho)

On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 at 15:50, Matthias Klumpp  wrote:

> Am Do., 20. Sep. 2018 um 15:48 Uhr schrieb Carlos Soriano <
> csori...@gnome.org>:
> >
> > And... we are reverting the change.
> >
> > The service is shutting down and actually any call to their servers is
> redirecting to Gravatar, which is quite shady
> >
> > If someone wants to help with that and contact libravatar developers
> feel free to do so.
>
> The service actually isn't shutting down, see the very first and bold
> message on the blogpost ;-)
>
> https://blog.libravatar.org/posts/Libravatar.org_is_not_going_away/
>
> > On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 at 15:33, Carlos Soriano  wrote:
> >>
> >> Done, enjoy!
> >>
> >> On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 at 10:03, Carlos Soriano  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> There has been indeed many things I didn't realize back then!
> >>>
> >>> This has got an overwhelming positive outcome, so seems replacing
> Gravatar by libravatar is the way forward. We will replace it in two weeks
> if no blocker appears.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks all!
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 at 18:00, Tobias Mueller 
> wrote:
> 
>  Hi,
> 
>  On Tue, 2018-09-04 at 11:24 -0400, Nicolas Dufresne wrote:
>  > I'm surely not
>  > the only one that isn't going that extreme in keeping control over
>  > couple of my pictures flying around and won't go that far.
>  This is much less about you than it is about other people visiting our
>  Web site.  AFAIU, we trick those people into telling a third party
> (i.e.
>  Gravatar) that they are visiting our Web site.  While people can patch
>  their browsers to disable such behaviour, we might feel better when
> not
>  doing that by default. Because.. you know.. we claim to value their
>  privacy.
> 
>  Someone was going wild about the GPDR and claimed that GNOME would be
>  affected. If that's the case then we better not make ship code to our
>  visitors that exposes them to third parties.
> 
>  Cheers,
>    Tobi
>  ___
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> >
> > ___
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> > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
>
>
>
> --
> I welcome VSRE emails. See http://vsre.info/
>
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Re: [GitLab] Gravatar vs libravatar

[Matthias Klumpp]

Am Do., 20. Sep. 2018 um 15:48 Uhr schrieb Carlos Soriano :
>
> And... we are reverting the change.
>
> The service is shutting down and actually any call to their servers is 
> redirecting to Gravatar, which is quite shady
>
> If someone wants to help with that and contact libravatar developers feel 
> free to do so.

The service actually isn't shutting down, see the very first and bold
message on the blogpost ;-)

https://blog.libravatar.org/posts/Libravatar.org_is_not_going_away/

> On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 at 15:33, Carlos Soriano  wrote:
>>
>> Done, enjoy!
>>
>> On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 at 10:03, Carlos Soriano  wrote:
>>>
>>> There has been indeed many things I didn't realize back then!
>>>
>>> This has got an overwhelming positive outcome, so seems replacing Gravatar 
>>> by libravatar is the way forward. We will replace it in two weeks if no 
>>> blocker appears.
>>>
>>> Thanks all!
>>>
>>> On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 at 18:00, Tobias Mueller  wrote:

 Hi,

 On Tue, 2018-09-04 at 11:24 -0400, Nicolas Dufresne wrote:
 > I'm surely not
 > the only one that isn't going that extreme in keeping control over
 > couple of my pictures flying around and won't go that far.
 This is much less about you than it is about other people visiting our
 Web site.  AFAIU, we trick those people into telling a third party (i.e.
 Gravatar) that they are visiting our Web site.  While people can patch
 their browsers to disable such behaviour, we might feel better when not
 doing that by default. Because.. you know.. we claim to value their
 privacy.

 Someone was going wild about the GPDR and claimed that GNOME would be
 affected. If that's the case then we better not make ship code to our
 visitors that exposes them to third parties.

 Cheers,
   Tobi
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>
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Re: [GitLab] Gravatar vs libravatar

[Carlos Soriano]

And... we are reverting the change.

The service is shutting down

and
actually any call to their servers is redirecting to Gravatar, which is
quite shady

If someone wants to help with that and contact libravatar developers feel
free to do so.

Cheers

On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 at 15:33, Carlos Soriano  wrote:

> Done, enjoy!
>
> On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 at 10:03, Carlos Soriano  wrote:
>
>> There has been indeed many things I didn't realize back then!
>>
>> This has got an overwhelming positive outcome, so seems replacing
>> Gravatar by libravatar is the way forward. We will replace it in two weeks
>> if no blocker appears.
>>
>> Thanks all!
>>
>> On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 at 18:00, Tobias Mueller  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Tue, 2018-09-04 at 11:24 -0400, Nicolas Dufresne wrote:
>>> > I'm surely not
>>> > the only one that isn't going that extreme in keeping control over
>>> > couple of my pictures flying around and won't go that far.
>>> This is much less about you than it is about other people visiting our
>>> Web site.  AFAIU, we trick those people into telling a third party (i.e.
>>> Gravatar) that they are visiting our Web site.  While people can patch
>>> their browsers to disable such behaviour, we might feel better when not
>>> doing that by default. Because.. you know.. we claim to value their
>>> privacy.
>>>
>>> Someone was going wild about the GPDR and claimed that GNOME would be
>>> affected. If that's the case then we better not make ship code to our
>>> visitors that exposes them to third parties.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>   Tobi
>>> ___
>>> desktop-devel-list mailing list
>>> desktop-devel-list@gnome.org
>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
>>>
>>
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Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

[Allan Day]

Alexandre Franke  wrote:

> Allan Day  wrote:
> > To be honest, I'm not sure how successful the keyboard shortcut windows
> > have been and I suspect that they're not being used a great deal.
>
> What are you basing this on?


Anecdotal evidence, primarily - my own usage, talking to other designers
and developers. It would certainly be good to have more reliable data.


> I have the exact
> opposite feeling, solely based on my own experience: I do use the
> shortcut window often and I find it very valuable.
>

That's interesting! Let's talk some more about it.

Allan
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Re: [GitLab] Gravatar vs libravatar

[Carlos Soriano]

Done, enjoy!

On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 at 10:03, Carlos Soriano  wrote:

> There has been indeed many things I didn't realize back then!
>
> This has got an overwhelming positive outcome, so seems replacing Gravatar
> by libravatar is the way forward. We will replace it in two weeks if no
> blocker appears.
>
> Thanks all!
>
> On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 at 18:00, Tobias Mueller  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Tue, 2018-09-04 at 11:24 -0400, Nicolas Dufresne wrote:
>> > I'm surely not
>> > the only one that isn't going that extreme in keeping control over
>> > couple of my pictures flying around and won't go that far.
>> This is much less about you than it is about other people visiting our
>> Web site.  AFAIU, we trick those people into telling a third party (i.e.
>> Gravatar) that they are visiting our Web site.  While people can patch
>> their browsers to disable such behaviour, we might feel better when not
>> doing that by default. Because.. you know.. we claim to value their
>> privacy.
>>
>> Someone was going wild about the GPDR and claimed that GNOME would be
>> affected. If that's the case then we better not make ship code to our
>> visitors that exposes them to third parties.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>   Tobi
>> ___
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>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
>>
>
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Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

[Alexandre Franke]

Hi,

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:52 PM Allan Day  wrote:
> To be honest, I'm not sure how successful the keyboard shortcut windows
> have been and I suspect that they're not being used a great deal.

What are you basing this on? Did you get specific feedback about that,
or was there a user testing session that showed this? I have the exact
opposite feeling, solely based on my own experience: I do use the
shortcut window often and I find it very valuable.

Cheers,

-- 
Alexandre Franke
GNOME Hacker
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Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

[Allan Day via desktop-devel-list]

Andre Klapper  wrote:
...

> Personally I've always wondered how the "Keyboard Shortcuts" item
> potentially duplicates dedicated pages in some user docs
>

It would certainly be good to have a coordinated strategy. One obvious
question is whether to list shortcuts in a separate section or sprinkle
them throughout the docs (or both). The other question is the issue that
Adrien brought up - where to document gestures (could be touchpad or
touchscreen).

Allan
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Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

[Andre Klapper]

[on documenting keyboard shortcuts]

On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 11:51 +0100, Allan Day wrote:
> Adrien Plazas  wrote:
> ...
> > What about updating the name ofthe "Keyboard Shortcuts" entry?
> 
> To be honest, I'm not sure how successful the keyboard shortcut
> windows have been and I suspect that they're not being used a great
> deal.
[...]
> I realise that you probably have an interest from a Games
> perspective, but I think it would be fine to special-case that and
> come up with a bespoke solution.

Personally I've always wondered how the "Keyboard Shortcuts" item
potentially duplicates dedicated pages in some user docs, such as
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/shell-keyboard-shortcuts.html
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/evolution/blob/master/help/C/intro-keyboard-shortcuts.page
 [1]
https://help.gnome.org/users/five-or-more/stable/shortcuts.html
https://help.gnome.org/users/iagno/stable/shortcuts.html

Maybe agreeing on a skeleton (strings to translate only once across
repos if you use software with a translation memory) / guidelines for a
shortcuts Mallard help page (and page name) is an option?

andre

[1] Can't link to a rendered version due to
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=785522
-- 
Andre Klapper  |  ak...@gmx.net
https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/


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Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

[Allan Day]

Adrien Plazas  wrote:
...
> What about updating the name ofthe "Keyboard Shortcuts" entry? The
windows they trigger also contain gestures and in Games they also contain
gamepad controls, making them being about way more than keyboards.
>
> "Shortcuts" is a simple replacement but any other idea is welcome.

To be honest, I'm not sure how successful the keyboard shortcut windows
have been and I suspect that they're not being used a great deal.

The main problems as I see them:

   - They're a special place you have to go to with the specific intention
   of learning shortcuts. This isn't something that a lot of people do,
   especially for simple apps.
   - They aren't playing the role of a quick reference, since we haven't
   successfully advertised how to quickly open them (ironically, this is
   through a shortcut).
   - They're often available in simple apps where keyboard shortcuts aren't
   that interesting. This negatively reinforces how people perceive their
   usefulness.

One option would be to reframe the shortcut windows as purely a quick
reference for keyboard shortcuts. As part of this, we'd need to publicise
the shortcut for raising the shortcuts window (possibly by exposing it in
the menu).

I realise that you probably have an interest from a Games perspective, but
I think it would be fine to special-case that and come up with a bespoke
solution.

Allan
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Re: Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

[Adrien Plazas via desktop-devel-list]

What about updating the name ofthe "Keyboard Shortcuts" entry? The 
windows they trigger also contain gestures and in Games they also 
contain gamepad controls, making them being about way more than 
keyboards.


"Shortcuts" is a simple replacement but any other idea is welcome.

Cheers,
Adrien Plazas

Le jeu. 20 sept. 2018 à 11:19, Allan Day  a écrit :

Hi all,

As previously discussed, we're planning to retire app menus this 
development cycle. The aim is to remove all application menus by 
3.32.0.


I've written some updated guidelines for the initiative, and I'd 
appreciate it if people could check them over.


We're also hoping to sneak in a couple of other UI changes at the 
same time. I wanted to flag these here, in case there are any 
objections. They are:
Grouping the Preferences menu item with the other "app" menu items 
(Keyboard Shortcuts, Help, About).
Changing the name of the about menu item from "About" to "About 
".
If this all seems OK, I'll announce the initiative more widely and 
start filing issues against the affected applications.


Thanks,

Allan

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Retiring app menus - planning for 3.32.0

[Allan Day]

Hi all,

As previously discussed, we're planning to retire app menus this
development cycle. The aim is to remove all application menus by 3.32.0.

I've written some updated guidelines for the initiative
, and
I'd appreciate it if people could check them over.

We're also hoping to sneak in a couple of other UI changes at the same
time. I wanted to flag these here, in case there are any objections. They
are:

   1. Grouping the Preferences menu item with the other "app" menu items
   (Keyboard Shortcuts, Help, About).
   2. Changing the name of the about menu item from "About" to "About
   ".

If this all seems OK, I'll announce the initiative more widely and start
filing issues against the affected applications.

Thanks,

Allan
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