Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
On Wed, 13.08.08 23:38, Alexander Jones ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Would it be considered bad to use, say, Logic Pro to synthesise and sequence event sounds? Yes of course. If the license of the final sounds is not touched by the license of the software you create them with it is perfectly fine to do them with some proprietary product. Back in the day our icons used be drawn with non-free software, too. Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553 http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
On Sat, 09.08.08 20:45, Luca Ferretti ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I've just committed a new module on svn: gnome-sound-theme[1] It's just an even sound theme, based on new fd.o Sound Theme Spec[2], reusing some sounds currently stored in gnome-audio module (converted from wav to ogg) and using a brave autotool framework. Hmm, I am maintaining the freedesktop sound theme right now, which is based on gnome-audio, too. I see no reason to maintain two themes in parallel here. http://0pointer.de/public/sound-theme-freedesktop.tar.gz I'd be very happy to hand over maintainership of s-t-f to you, or can I convince you to merge the two projects and or rename g-s-t to s-t-f? That would make it easier for the KDE people to kike it. My s-t-f is not maitnained in any VC right now (there has been only a single release for now). Of course could be interesting include it in GNOME Desktop (yes, I know the new modules period is out), but there are some issues: * by now there are only 8 sounds, I think we could like to have more s-t-f has more: 37. * I've no idea about license and credit for current sound files For s-t-f i made sure only to include CC, GPL and LGPL licensed files. (see the readme). Some of the sounds that come from gnome-audio are CC-SA 2.0 however, which is not good enough for Debian. Which makes them good canidates to be replaced. Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553 http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
On Mon, 11.08.08 20:50, Brian Cameron ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: We should update our spec so that FLAC is the recommended uncompressed format. It is superior from a technology standpoint, saves disk space, and comes from the free software community (WAV was written by IBM and Microsoft and is based on the older IFF format from Commodore-Amiga). We should work harder to replace the legacy WAV format with newer, more exciting technologies that are available from the free software community. We support Vorbis and .WAV in the spec. I see no reason to support anything else. Vorbis is compressed, has good quality and is free. .WAV is high quality too and well established. Both formats might have their limitations (size, quality, ...). But those limitations don't really matter for event sounds, since they are short, and don't need to have ultra-high hifi quality. People who are into gold cables won't enable event sounds anyway, right? The mandatory supported sound file formats are WAV/PCM 8-48kHz, 8/16bits, and OGG/Vorbis. WAV at 48kHz/Stereo is the recommended uncompressed format, and OGG/Vorbis is the recommended compressed format. The sample must be normalized, in order to be mixed down nicely with a suitable average replay level. You should probably define what you mean by normalized. My understanding of what normalized means is that you ensure that the maximum volume is at a particular level. However, this says nothing about the average volume level, since a relatively low-volume clip can have a single moment with an unusually high volume, and therefore not be adjusted much by normalization. It is actually defined in the spec: snip The sound samples must be normalized with a suitable average replay level, in order to be properly mixed down. For more informations, please read http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/calculationg_rg.html and check that your volume level is reasonable. /snip Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553 http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 15:28 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: snip * I've no idea about license and credit for current sound files For those based on gnome-audio, see the README. For s-t-f i made sure only to include CC, GPL and LGPL licensed files. (see the readme). Some of the sounds that come from gnome-audio are CC-SA 2.0 however, which is not good enough for Debian. Which makes them good canidates to be replaced. I'm sure the authors of those files can be co-axed into better licenses. I thought this one would be enough to be considered free. FWIW, no Debian developer ever contacted me about a licensing problem. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
On Wed, 13.08.08 14:54, Bastien Nocera ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 15:28 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: snip * I've no idea about license and credit for current sound files For those based on gnome-audio, see the README. For s-t-f i made sure only to include CC, GPL and LGPL licensed files. (see the readme). Some of the sounds that come from gnome-audio are CC-SA 2.0 however, which is not good enough for Debian. Which makes them good canidates to be replaced. I'm sure the authors of those files can be co-axed into better licenses. I thought this one would be enough to be considered free. FWIW, no Debian developer ever contacted me about a licensing problem. They already contacted me, though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_licenses#Debian I was a bit too lazy however to pursue the relicensing, especially since it doesn't really matter for the company/distro I work for and apparently was fine in g-a all the time. Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553 http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Lennart Poettering [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 13.08.08 14:54, Bastien Nocera ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 15:28 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: For s-t-f i made sure only to include CC, GPL and LGPL licensed files. (see the readme). Some of the sounds that come from gnome-audio are CC-SA 2.0 however, which is not good enough for Debian. Which makes them good canidates to be replaced. I'm sure the authors of those files can be co-axed into better licenses. I thought this one would be enough to be considered free. FWIW, no Debian developer ever contacted me about a licensing problem. They already contacted me, though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_licenses#Debian I was a bit too lazy however to pursue the relicensing, especially since it doesn't really matter for the company/distro I work for and apparently was fine in g-a all the time. Probably a stupid idea but still worth the blind shot in my opinion. Couldn't GNOME Foundation board or some other entity contact Google and ask for a GPL/LGPL/whatever licensed version of the sounds Google uses in their various apps including their web chat and Google Talk? It won't cost a penny either for us or for them. Google is known for their support for OpenSource and they already share some of their achievements under permissive licenses. Flame on. -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
On Thu, 14.08.08 00:18, Lennart Poettering ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: They already contacted me, though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_licenses#Debian I was a bit too lazy however to pursue the relicensing, especially since it doesn't really matter for the company/distro I work for and apparently was fine in g-a all the time. Probably a stupid idea but still worth the blind shot in my opinion. Couldn't GNOME Foundation board or some other entity contact Google and ask for a GPL/LGPL/whatever licensed version of the sounds Google uses in their various apps including their web chat and Google Talk? It won't cost a penny either for us or for them. Google is known for their support for OpenSource and they already share some of their achievements under permissive licenses. JFDI! Also note that there isn't really a shortage of properly licensed sounds anymore these days: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Sound_samples it's just a matter of picking appropriate sounds from this set and making a theme out of them. Volunteers? Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553 http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
2008-08-12 klockan 05:42 skrev Sandy Armstrong: Brian Cameron wrote: We should update our spec so that FLAC is the recommended uncompressed format. Huh? Isn't FLAC a *compressed* format? Lossless != uncompressed. That's not true. According to your defition, gzip would also be lossy? Anyway, FLAC is an audio format for lossless compression (smart encoding of the waveform instead of just dumping bit vectors as a PCM file...) mvrgr, Wouter -- :wq mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] web http://uwstopia.nl if it gets you down :: well just don't blame me -- queens of the stone age signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
2008/8/12 Wouter Bolsterlee [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008-08-12 klockan 05:42 skrev Sandy Armstrong: Brian Cameron wrote: We should update our spec so that FLAC is the recommended uncompressed format. Huh? Isn't FLAC a *compressed* format? Lossless != uncompressed. That's not true. According to your defition, gzip would also be lossy? By reading this I was pretty sure Brian was stating quite the opposite? -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
Wouter Bolsterlee wrote: 2008-08-12 klockan 05:42 skrev Sandy Armstrong: Brian Cameron wrote: We should update our spec so that FLAC is the recommended uncompressed format. Huh? Isn't FLAC a *compressed* format? Lossless != uncompressed. That's not true. According to your defition, gzip would also be lossy? What definition? All I said was that, though FLAC is lossless, it is not uncompressed (as Brian had claimed). Sandy ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
2008-08-12 klockan 14:59 skrev Sandy Armstrong: Wouter Bolsterlee wrote: That's not true. According to your defition, gzip would also be lossy? What definition? All I said was that, though FLAC is lossless, it is not uncompressed (as Brian had claimed). Nevermind. I misread your original message. I think it's pretty clear by now: Flac is both lossless and compressed. mvrgr, Wouter -- :wq mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] web http://uwstopia.nl but sometimes :: it's better to lie -- hooverphonic signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
On Tue, 2008-08-12 at 14:36 -0500, Brian Cameron wrote: Sandy: Huh? Isn't FLAC a *compressed* format? Lossless != uncompressed. Sorry, my confusion. The current Sound Theme spec only has supported sound file formats for uncompressed and compressed formats. I think most people who deal with audio care more about lossy versus lossless formats than whether the data is compressed or not. Most people would probably prefer compressed as a default due to the large size of audio files. I think the spec should, at the very least, include FLAC as the recommended compressed lossless format and OGG/Vorbs as the recommended compressed lossy format. If people think an uncompressed lossless format has any value, then it we should consider a better format than WAV, which has a 4 GB filesize limitation, while Sony Media WAV 64 (W64) allows for longer recording times. erm... for the sound theme spec? you really think you'll hit the 4GB file size limit for a sound effect to be used when logging in/out (which are the longest running effects on my laptop)? if we want to ditch WAV because it's a Microsoft- and IBM-backed format then surely we can dig out another technical reason we can use to justify not to use it; also, I'd consider a Sony-backend format just as evil. ciao, Emmanuele. -- Emmanuele Bassi, W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
mmh, maybe my mail was a little bit too sarcastic... let's try again, seriously this time. On Tue, 2008-08-12 at 14:36 -0500, Brian Cameron wrote: Sandy: Huh? Isn't FLAC a *compressed* format? Lossless != uncompressed. Sorry, my confusion. The current Sound Theme spec only has supported sound file formats for uncompressed and compressed formats. I think most people who deal with audio care more about lossy versus lossless formats than whether the data is compressed or not. Most people would probably prefer compressed as a default due to the large size of audio files. I think the spec should, at the very least, include FLAC as the recommended compressed lossless format and OGG/Vorbs as the recommended compressed lossy format. I completely agree; the lossless/lossy distinction is far more important than the compressed/uncompressed one. If people think an uncompressed lossless format has any value, then it we should consider a better format than WAV, which has a 4 GB filesize limitation, while Sony Media WAV 64 (W64) allows for longer recording times. I have my share of doubts that we're going to hit the 4GB limit for the sound effects of a theme. 4GB of 44.1 kHz WAV is basically 100 minutes of sound - I don't plan to listen to a sample for that kind of duration when I get an error message, or when I log in. we might phase out WAV and use something new, sure, but not for the file size limit - in the sound theme spec context, obviously. ciao, Emmanuele. -- Emmanuele Bassi, W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
Luca: We should update our spec so that FLAC is the recommended uncompressed format. It is superior from a technology standpoint, saves disk space, and comes from the free software community (WAV was written by IBM and Microsoft and is based on the older IFF format from Commodore-Amiga). We should work harder to replace the legacy WAV format with newer, more exciting technologies that are available from the free software community. The mandatory supported sound file formats are WAV/PCM 8-48kHz, 8/16bits, and OGG/Vorbis. WAV at 48kHz/Stereo is the recommended uncompressed format, and OGG/Vorbis is the recommended compressed format. The sample must be normalized, in order to be mixed down nicely with a suitable average replay level. You should probably define what you mean by normalized. My understanding of what normalized means is that you ensure that the maximum volume is at a particular level. However, this says nothing about the average volume level, since a relatively low-volume clip can have a single moment with an unusually high volume, and therefore not be adjusted much by normalization. Brian ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
Il giorno sab, 09/08/2008 alle 20.45 +0200, Luca Ferretti ha scritto: I've just committed a new module on svn: gnome-sound-theme[1] Forgot to mention: added to jhbuild, under gnome-2.24.modules too. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
Why did you convert them to a lossy format? Convert losslessly FLAC if you need to, but what was wrong with the uncompressed WAV files? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
Il giorno sab, 09/08/2008 alle 20.00 +0100, Alexander Jones ha scritto: Why did you convert them to a lossy format? Convert losslessly FLAC if you need to, but what was wrong with the uncompressed WAV files? It's uncompressed, IMHO ;-) From Sound Theme Spec: The mandatory supported sound file formats are WAV/PCM 8-48kHz, 8/16bits, and OGG/Vorbis. WAV at 48kHz/Stereo is the recommended uncompressed format, and OGG/Vorbis is the recommended compressed format. The sample must be normalized, in order to be mixed down nicely with a suitable average replay level. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: New svn module: gnome-sound-theme
On Sat, 2008-08-09 at 22:14 +0200, Luca Ferretti wrote: Il giorno sab, 09/08/2008 alle 20.00 +0100, Alexander Jones ha scritto: Why did you convert them to a lossy format? Convert losslessly FLAC if you need to, but what was wrong with the uncompressed WAV files? It's uncompressed, IMHO ;-) From Sound Theme Spec: The mandatory supported sound file formats are WAV/PCM 8-48kHz, 8/16bits, and OGG/Vorbis. WAV at 48kHz/Stereo is the recommended uncompressed format, and OGG/Vorbis is the recommended compressed format. The sample must be normalized, in order to be mixed down nicely with a suitable average replay level. Whatever. You should be creating the sound file on-the-fly from the original files, rather than uploading a single version you created one day. Or at least upload the original files and make it easier for people to replace the files. The wave files are the sources. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
