Re: 3.2 features: login screen
Matthias Clasen (matthias.cla...@gmail.com) said: 2. Similarly, how is 'e)' different than the current user add screen? How are additional users expected to configure this information for their login if they are created in this manner? Additional users can use the control-center to set up the account, as things currently stand. It is conceivable that one could write a welcome assistant for additional users that does some of the same things (and probably shares some of the code), but that's not part of the current design. And considering that most systems are single-user, and additional users are much less likely to be 'alone with the new toy', it seems a much lower priority. I'm just trying to envision how this can be used, or reused, in other scenarios. (For example, the subsequent user accounts could use the same wizard, with potentially network location elided.) 3. Given the 'initial setup' sort of idea, is there going to be a 'reset to factory defaults' button somewhere else? I don't think we need one, really. Do you ? Probably not; that certainly implies something about the provisioning and layout of the system to implement sanely. Bill ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 08:02 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: - An 'initial-setup' tool. The goal here is to allow setting up a few essential things on a new system before you start to use it for the first time. Would this be the right place for the give me a legible font thingy? http://people.gnome.org/~federico/news-2007-01.html#font-sizes Or is that something that should go elsewhere? Federico ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Federico Mena Quintero feder...@ximian.com wrote: On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 08:02 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: - An 'initial-setup' tool. The goal here is to allow setting up a few essential things on a new system before you start to use it for the first time. Would this be the right place for the give me a legible font thingy? http://people.gnome.org/~federico/news-2007-01.html#font-sizes Or is that something that should go elsewhere? Only if we grow a font selection somewhere in the control-center, I think. We really don't want to go back to 'install-time only' configuration - it leads to people who think they have to reinstall their system because they picked the wrong font in the setup tool. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
Hi, On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 12:17 PM, Brian Cameron brian.came...@oracle.com wrote: Most of the discussion does not seem to be about the login screen as the subject line suggests. I think this is because the original email in this thread lumped together GDM shell-style greeter topics with unrelated installer setup tool topics. To me, it seems that issues with the installer has completely drowned out any real discussion about the GDM changes proposed. In my experience, installer topics tend to be more controversial since you tend to get into more OS and distro specific issues. Well it's not about an installer setup tool, but about a first login tool. There's no installing going on here... It's sort of akin to 602663 but dealing with more than just login setup and at least initially only handling the initial-user case instead of all first-login cases (with a way to bypass it for situations where it doesn't make sense) In terms of the login screen, the mock-up[1] looks nice but seems underspecified. I do not see why you would even need to use OpenGL or clutter, or even need to change the GDM code much to just make it visibly look like the mock-ups. Well, we should leverage the gnome platform as much as makes sense, though, --Ray ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
Did anybody consider including language selection in the initial setup screen. It a little hard to do that at the moment. Being able to change the system language seems to be missing too, Gnome has to provide something as distro are not support to extend the control panel so much. Nicolas signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 08:02 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: Over the past week, I've been working with Ray on fleshing out the plans for gdm in 3.2. We are aiming for 2 things for 3.2: - A new 'shell-style' greeter. You can see a mockup on the feature page. Will the UI be something that can end up being shared with gnome-screensaver, to avoid mismatching UIs? - An 'initial-setup' tool. The goal here is to allow setting up a few essential things on a new system before you start to use it for the first time. Given that, at least for a transition period, it might replicate some of the settings done during the installation, would it be possible to disable particular pages from being shown, so as to have no overlap. I'd expect distributors to make changes to the .desktop file to disable particular pages until their installer catches up. More details can be found in https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointOne/Features/LoginScreen. Please go and read them before replying. Cheers ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
Le vendredi 20 mai 2011 à 08:02 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit : - An 'initial-setup' tool. The goal here is to allow setting up a few essential things on a new system before you start to use it for the first time. Please don’t do this. It would merely duplicate the functionality already in the installer. A system should be immediately usable once the installation is finished. Having to run things after it has booted would be a jump 5 years backwards. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote: Please don’t do this. It would merely duplicate the functionality already in the installer. A system should be immediately usable once the installation is finished. There's plenty of scenarios where this logic doesn't work: - preinstalled or otherwise provisioned systems - generally any situation where the person doing the installation is not the same as the person using the system And existing practice seems to disagree with your vision, if you look at things like firstboot or yast. Anyway, if your installer gets it all perfect, you can just not use this feature, it is entirely optional. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
Le vendredi 20 mai 2011 à 09:07 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit : A system should be immediately usable once the installation is finished. There's plenty of scenarios where this logic doesn't work: - preinstalled or otherwise provisioned systems - generally any situation where the person doing the installation is not the same as the person using the system This is precisely the kind of situations where the installer needs to take care of everything. And existing practice seems to disagree with your vision, if you look at things like firstboot or yast. We used to have that too. It’s a hindrance, and it needlessly splits the installation process in two. It feels to me like you want to replace firstboot by a graphical thingy and put a GNOME label on a Red Hat-specific program. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
Il giorno ven, 20/05/2011 alle 08.02 -0400, Matthias Clasen ha scritto: - An 'initial-setup' tool. The goal here is to allow setting up a few essential things on a new system before you start to use it for the first time. I strongly suggest to postpone this, if planned to be performed after installation and before first login to setup the master user (as it seems reading the wiki, see create an account panel). We still have to choose what GNOME OS will be and we are yet planning to overlap distro role :) But if you want to show a similar assistant to each user _after_ his/her first successful login, it could be fine and interesting (but I suppose should be moved from gdm to a separate project). If so, do you plan to add hooks for third parties (for instance, an hook to allow gwibber to include its own panel)? Cheers, Luca ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
Le vendredi 20 mai 2011 à 15:12 +0200, Josselin Mouette a écrit : Le vendredi 20 mai 2011 à 09:07 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit : A system should be immediately usable once the installation is finished. There's plenty of scenarios where this logic doesn't work: - preinstalled or otherwise provisioned systems - generally any situation where the person doing the installation is not the same as the person using the system This is precisely the kind of situations where the installer needs to take care of everything. But should (and can) the installer also take care of setting up your Google/Facebook/Yahoo.. account? Saving your WPA passphrase in your user keyring? That will probably be even harder to do than from a special GDM session. Or maybe the installer could just take care of creating the user, and the initial setup would only be something to run for each new user? Cheers ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 15:19 +0200, Luca Ferretti wrote: Il giorno ven, 20/05/2011 alle 08.02 -0400, Matthias Clasen ha scritto: - An 'initial-setup' tool. The goal here is to allow setting up a few essential things on a new system before you start to use it for the first time. I strongly suggest to postpone this, if planned to be performed after installation and before first login to setup the master user (as it seems reading the wiki, see create an account panel). We still have to choose what GNOME OS will be and we are yet planning to overlap distro role :) Distros shouldn't have been doing that in the first place, and it's optional. But if you want to show a similar assistant to each user _after_ his/her first successful login, And how do you create the new users? Either you have something provided by the distro, or you'll need to log in as root. Neither of which will integrate nicely in GNOME. it could be fine and interesting (but I suppose should be moved from gdm to a separate project). If so, do you plan to add hooks for third parties (for instance, an hook to allow gwibber to include its own panel)? Huh, what? We're talking about system configuration. What language do you use, what keyboard setup do you want, then you can login and do your stuff. And I don't see why we'd be allowing Gwibber to add its own panel any more in the first time assistant than in gnome-control-center. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
Il giorno ven, 20/05/2011 alle 14.29 +0100, Bastien Nocera ha scritto: On Fri, 2011-05-20 at 15:19 +0200, Luca Ferretti wrote: I strongly suggest to postpone this, if planned to be performed after installation and before first login to setup the master user (as it seems reading the wiki, see create an account panel). We still have to choose what GNOME OS will be and we are yet planning to overlap distro role :) Distros shouldn't have been doing that in the first place, and it's optional. Could you please elaborate this Distros shouldn't have been doing that in the first place? But if you want to show a similar assistant to each user _after_ his/her first successful login, And how do you create the new users? (sarcastic mode: on) Well, in the past 15 year I was always able to do it on GNU/Linux. Which operating system are you using? :P (sarcastic mode off) Either you have something provided by the distro, or you'll need to log in as root. Neither of which will integrate nicely in GNOME. Now serious, I repeat. We still have to define what GNOME OS will be. So I suggest to use 3.2 timeframe to clean up applications and libraries instead starting to work on downstream stuff. Do you? it could be fine and interesting (but I suppose should be moved from gdm to a separate project). If so, do you plan to add hooks for third parties (for instance, an hook to allow gwibber to include its own panel)? Huh, what? We're talking about system configuration. What language do you use, what keyboard setup do you want, then you can login and do your stuff. And I don't see why we'd be allowing Gwibber to add its own panel any more in the first time assistant than in gnome-control-center. Here is web accounts page in mockups on wiki page too and it seems more personal related. But, as I said, Gwibber was just an example for third parties. If you missed the point, I'm asking about planned behavior and features for this first time assistant: A. will it be only for master user or for all users? B. will it allow some kind of customization by vendor/distro/whatever? I suppose those are good question about a new feature like this. Cheers, Luca ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
On 20 May 2011 14:44, Luca Ferretti lferr...@gnome.org wrote: Now serious, I repeat. We still have to define what GNOME OS will be. So I suggest to use 3.2 timeframe to clean up applications and libraries instead starting to work on downstream stuff. Do you? I thought 3.0 was all about getting our platform in order, and 3.2 was all about defining the OS properly. I don't think that was written down anywhere, but that was the vibe I was getting. Richard. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Luca Ferretti lferr...@gnome.org wrote: If you missed the point, I'm asking about planned behavior and features for this first time assistant: A. will it be only for master user or for all users? B. will it allow some kind of customization by vendor/distro/whatever? I suppose those are good question about a new feature like this. Let me answer them. A. The design is to run this only for the initial setup, when no users exist yet. The large majority of systems nowadays are single-user, anyway... B. Not planned, no. This is intended to configure a handful of essential things, not an open-ended list of things you might want to set up if happen to know about them. If twitter-esque web services become supported by 'online accounts', that would make it possible for gwibber to pick up the configuration from there. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote: Le vendredi 20 mai 2011 à 08:02 -0400, Matthias Clasen a écrit : - An 'initial-setup' tool. The goal here is to allow setting up a few essential things on a new system before you start to use it for the first time. Please don’t do this. It would merely duplicate the functionality already in the installer. The best argument for having this as part of the OS is for the live CD scenario. You might as well type in your username each time if you have to pick language etc. too. And once you've done this, then you don't need to create a user in the installer, because we can just take the one you made at bootup. It's almost like everything would be integrated and actually make sense! ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
Le vendredi 20 mai 2011 à 11:11 -0400, Colin Walters a écrit : The best argument for having this as part of the OS is for the live CD scenario. You might as well type in your username each time if you have to pick language etc. too. Hi, The liveCD or the installer don't require any output, taking the Ubuntu example loco team distribute localized versions of the CD with the right locale by default, the liveCD autologin, you click on the installer, select your location and partitions then the installation start and you can deal with the customizations while the copy is happening. Having it done while the system is working is a time win over what you suggest Cheers, Sebastien Bacher ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
Hi! B. Not planned, no. This is intended to configure a handful of essential things, not an open-ended list of things you might want to set up if happen to know about them. If twitter-esque web services become supported by 'online accounts', that would make it possible for gwibber to pick up the configuration from there. I have very mixed feelings about not allowing any customization here, especially for web-services where we mostly talk about proprietary web services: a) Who decides which to include? Why would we include Google and Facebook but not Bing or UbuntuOne*? This is one of the points Microsoft got sued badly by the EU in the past. * Don't take this examples to literally... b) There might be a lot of people that take integration of some services as part of the business. That doesn't mean we should encourage it but even manufacturers that would want to preinstall some Linux distribution would likely want to have some customization here. Personally I also don't think that the network panel is very useful. There are basically three cases to consider here: a) Wired connection - should automatically connect with DHCP b) Wireless connection - I think NetworkManager covers this pretty nicely in the UI. The network menu could even be automatically shown on first login when no network is connected. c) Scary (static IP, Proxy, whatever) setups - we don't want to provide an UI in the startup-wizard, do we? Regards, Johannes signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
Hi, On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Johannes Schmid j...@jsschmid.de wrote: Hi! B. Not planned, no. This is intended to configure a handful of essential things, not an open-ended list of things you might want to set up if happen to know about them. If twitter-esque web services become supported by 'online accounts', that would make it possible for gwibber to pick up the configuration from there. I have very mixed feelings about not allowing any customization here, especially for web-services where we mostly talk about proprietary web services: a) Who decides which to include? Why would we include Google and Facebook but not Bing or UbuntuOne*? This is one of the points Microsoft got sued badly by the EU in the past. * Don't take this examples to literally... It's just not that simple. I briefly explained the problems here http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-May/msg00267.html TL;DR : - The technical problems involve managing N times M times P codebases - There might be really nasty Terms Of Service issues - I expect 3.2 to only support Google, Yahoo providers - I expect 3.2 to only support Mail and Calendar services After 3.2 we can add more providers and more kinds of services. I'm still working on this. David ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
Matthias Clasen (matthias.cla...@gmail.com) said: Let me answer them. A. The design is to run this only for the initial setup, when no users exist yet. The large majority of systems nowadays are single-user, anyway... OK, but that does make me wonder about when this isn't the case. The flow appears to be: Initial state: a system with no users a) InitialSetup runs b) Create first user c) Configure first user's settings d) First user has full session e) First user creates additional users in control-center Questions: 1. How is 'c)' different from the existing control panels (including new ones for GOA)? Do they share any code or implementation? If they don't, how do we document for new users that to change these settings they go through a different interface than they did for initial setup? 2. Similarly, how is 'e)' different than the current user add screen? How are additional users expected to configure this information for their login if they are created in this manner? 3. Given the 'initial setup' sort of idea, is there going to be a 'reset to factory defaults' button somewhere else? Bill ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: 3.2 features: login screen
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote: Matthias Clasen (matthias.cla...@gmail.com) said: Initial state: a system with no users a) InitialSetup runs b) Create first user c) Configure first user's settings d) First user has full session e) First user creates additional users in control-center Questions: 1. How is 'c)' different from the existing control panels (including new ones for GOA)? Do they share any code or implementation? If they don't, how do we document for new users that to change these settings they go through a different interface than they did for initial setup? It is different from the control-center in so far as it is a guided setup, asking you the handful of questions you need to answer before you can get going. The control-center is not offering you that guidance. In terms of what you can configure, the initial setup is a very tiny subset of what you can do in the control-center. And it is supposed to remain a proper subset; we want to avoid the install-time-only configurability that we've seen in the past with 'fat' installers. What is shared here is a) the system and session services that are used and b) the general user experience - e.g. the network list uses the same icons and appearance as the combo in the network panel, and the timezone map is the same widget you see in the datetime panel. As far as actual code sharing goes, currently some bits and pieces are copied. Some of it (e.g. the map widget) will end up in shared libraries (see ongoing discussion on the control-center list), but I don't see that as an urgent priority. 2. Similarly, how is 'e)' different than the current user add screen? How are additional users expected to configure this information for their login if they are created in this manner? Additional users can use the control-center to set up the account, as things currently stand. It is conceivable that one could write a welcome assistant for additional users that does some of the same things (and probably shares some of the code), but that's not part of the current design. And considering that most systems are single-user, and additional users are much less likely to be 'alone with the new toy', it seems a much lower priority. 3. Given the 'initial setup' sort of idea, is there going to be a 'reset to factory defaults' button somewhere else? I don't think we need one, really. Do you ? ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
