Re: On Ctrl+tab
On 1/18/10 7:22 AM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote: Let me make it clear that I'm not against mapping Ctrl+Tab to tab cycling as long as the current shortcuts are still available *and* under the condition that a proper substitute for moving widget focus is found. Cool. So it is the apps that create the inconsistent behaviour, not Gnome. I still hold that point of view. I guess the take-away point is...if third-party apps wanted to obey the GNOME convention, they would. Third-party app makers don't have Be Inconsistent as their #1 goal. They are disobeying this convention for a reason (either -inconsistent with all other OS platforms, -inconvenient for users, etc). GNOME should aim to realize why they disobey this one -- and then take an action to help reduce the inconsistency [like the call for a patch earlier] or aid the app developers. If the Gnome project would have the means (and the desire) to enforce its guidelines as much as Apple does, Firefox wouldn't have made it as the primary browser in many distributions. True about GNOME, but...if per your point Apple-Has-The-Power, then they would have made Firefox change to not conflict with their UI. But that did not happen, so either A) there was no conflict or B) Apple-Hasn't-The-Power. Either way, the point just isn't very relevant. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On 1/15/10 11:44 AM, Calum Benson wrote: On 15 Jan 2010, at 13:07, Jud Craft wrote: It really is a nightmarish combination on MacBooks. No worse than any of the Cmd-Opt-Letter combinations that many Mac apps have, surely? Well, with Ctrl+Option+Fn+Down/Up, it is a four-key combination. I couldn't take you seriously if you claim that's more optimal than Ctrl-Tab. :) [I do understand that GNOME is not at fault for Macbook's lack of PgUp/Down buttons, but GNOME's conventions don't make it any easier.] ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On 1/15/10 10:51 AM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote: Most Mac and Win installations _don't_ include a copy of it and still it tries to fit into the environment it's running on. Yes...and it uses Ctrl-Tab. Remember this whole thread is about Ctrl-Tab. If GNOME used Ctrl-Shift-X for Copy, we'd all blame GNOME for being pointlessly arbitrary. It doesn't, so I don't get the point your making here. It is an analogy to GNOME using Ctrl+Alt (or was it shift?) + PageUp/Down, where the other two platforms use Ctrl+Tab. It wasn't that hard to grasp. With regard to keyboard navigation conventions, there is an endless list of conflicts between different platforms. There is no way to please everyone. And yet how easy it is to give up and please only a few! A platform with an HIG is supposed to give third-party application developers a consistent environment that makes it easier for them. GNOME's in particular also creates ignored bug reports and inconsistent application behavior. All third-party (separate from GNOME project) GTK apps I can think of disboey this convention of Ctrl-Alt-PageUp/Down. If GNOME's conventions aren't meeting their need, don't blame the apps. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On 1/14/10 6:12 PM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote: Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn to switch tabs is hard wired in my head so I may be biased, but based on my own experience it's not inconvenient at all. regards, It really is a nightmarish combination on MacBooks. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On 1/14/10 6:00 PM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote: Op dinsdag 12-01-2010 om 20:01 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Jud Craft: Due to its ubiquity, the conflict is very evident in GNOME programs, where the behavior is completely different, even on the same Linux operating system - between Epiphany and Firefox, Empathy and Pidgin, Anjuta and MonoDevelop as examples. I'd like to point out that it's up to Firefox, Pidgin and co. to behave like good citizens on the Gnome desktop. Not the other way around! regards, Firefox was never called a GNOME app, either -- it's a cross-platform app that uses GTK. It's not Firefox's fault that GNOME distros always include a copy of it. If GNOME used Ctrl-Shift-X for Copy, we'd all blame GNOME for being pointlessly arbitrary. The real problem here is the conflict with Ctrl-Tab for keyboard navigation, not blaming applications for disobeying GNOME conventions. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
Op vrijdag 15-01-2010 om 08:27 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Jud Craft: Firefox was never called a GNOME app, either -- it's a cross-platform app that uses GTK. I'm well aware of that. It's not Firefox's fault that GNOME distros always include a copy of it. Most Mac and Win installations _don't_ include a copy of it and still it tries to fit into the environment it's running on. If GNOME used Ctrl-Shift-X for Copy, we'd all blame GNOME for being pointlessly arbitrary. It doesn't, so I don't get the point your making here. The real problem here is the conflict with Ctrl-Tab for keyboard navigation, not blaming applications for disobeying GNOME conventions. With regard to keyboard navigation conventions, there is an endless list of conflicts between different platforms. There is no way to please everyone. Just my 2 cents, -- Reinout van Schouwen ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On 15 Jan 2010, at 13:07, Jud Craft wrote: On 1/14/10 6:12 PM, Reinout van Schouwen wrote: Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn to switch tabs is hard wired in my head so I may be biased, but based on my own experience it's not inconvenient at all. regards, It really is a nightmarish combination on MacBooks. No worse than any of the Cmd-Opt-Letter combinations that many Mac apps have, surely? (Unless Fn and Ctrl aren't beside each other on all Mac laptop keybaords -- but they are on my 3yr old one.) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Interaction Designer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.ben...@sun.comOpenSolaris Desktop Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
Op dinsdag 12-01-2010 om 20:01 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Jud Craft: Due to its ubiquity, the conflict is very evident in GNOME programs, where the behavior is completely different, even on the same Linux operating system - between Epiphany and Firefox, Empathy and Pidgin, Anjuta and MonoDevelop as examples. I'd like to point out that it's up to Firefox, Pidgin and co. to behave like good citizens on the Gnome desktop. Not the other way around! regards, -- Reinout van Schouwen ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
Op woensdag 13-01-2010 om 11:27 uur [tijdzone -0800], schreef Sandy Armstrong: This case seems excessive to me. If you've one hand on your mouse, use the mouse to change tab, clicking or using the scroll wheel :P And yet, I was about to respond identically to you before I saw that Dan beat me to it. I believe that right hand on mouse, left hand on keyboard is extremely common. Consider selecting text and copy/pasting, or using ctrl+tab to change tabs, with the mouse in the content area so you can scroll, select text, etc. So while I don't have any data outside my own usage and intuition, I really don't think it's excessive, as you say. I have to agree with Luca. GTK+ applications switch tabs with the mouse scroll wheel, which is probably the fastest way if you have your right hand on the mouse anyway. I _do_ support a possibility to reprogram the tab switching keycombo's though. If only for people who use a left handed mouse, weird laptop keyboard, etc. I think that's a bit limiting, but even if we were to accept it as true, we can still say that on a full keyboard, ctrl+page up/down requires you to shift your right-hand considerably away from home row, making it fairly inconvenient. Ctrl+PgUp/PgDn to switch tabs is hard wired in my head so I may be biased, but based on my own experience it's not inconvenient at all. regards, -- Reinout van Schouwen ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Reinout van Schouwen reino...@gnome.org wrote: Op dinsdag 12-01-2010 om 20:01 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Jud Craft: Due to its ubiquity, the conflict is very evident in GNOME programs, where the behavior is completely different, even on the same Linux operating system - between Epiphany and Firefox, Empathy and Pidgin, Anjuta and MonoDevelop as examples. I'd like to point out that it's up to Firefox, Pidgin and co. to behave like good citizens on the Gnome desktop. Not the other way around! Yes, be good citizens and behave like gedit. No, wait... ;) -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On 1/13/10 6:25 AM, Paul Davis wrote: On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Hi Jud, Thanks for bringing this up. How about: those who care come up with a replacement combination for focus navigation in GTK+, and a patch to implement ctrl+tab to change tabs, and submit that for upstream inclusion and see if we get any substantial (other than breaks back-compat)? before anyone even does that, it would be worth confirming that the OS X shortcut is Ctrl-tab and not Cmd-tab. If its Cmd-tab, then this a fix for this bug would be a nice pre-requisite: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=601863 Not sure what you mean. I'm running Firefox and Thunderbird on OS X, and they use Ctrl-Tab. Cmd-Tab is reserved for application switching on OS X. I don't think there is any official Apple pack-in program that uses tabs at all. But then they do have a document-based window manager, so it's probably not a necessity. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Luca Ferretti elle@libero.it wrote: Il giorno dom, 22/11/2009 alle 16.32 -0800, Sandy Armstrong ha scritto: Most users I've spoken to about this prefer ctrl+tab because it is similar to alt+tab, and can be invoked with only the left hand. Ctrl+PgUp/Down can be invoked with only the _right_ hand using right Ctrl key. Except on a bunch of laptops and netbooks where the PgUp/Down keys are not well placed or where you have to press some FN key to access them. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list -- Olivier Lê Thanh Duong oliv...@lethanh.be Phone : +32485608639 Jabber: oleth...@gmail.com ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On 01/13/2010 07:47 AM, Luca Ferretti wrote: Il giorno dom, 22/11/2009 alle 16.32 -0800, Sandy Armstrong ha scritto: Most users I've spoken to about this prefer ctrl+tab because it is similar to alt+tab, and can be invoked with only the left hand. Ctrl+PgUp/Down can be invoked with only the _right_ hand using right Ctrl key. Right, but when browsing the web, you'll generally have one hand on the mouse for clicking/scrollwheeling, and so for right-handed people, having the important keyboard operations be left-hand-only is nice. -- Dan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On 1/13/10 8:15 AM, Olivier Le Thanh Duong wrote: On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Luca Ferretti wrote: Il giorno dom, 22/11/2009 alle 16.32 -0800, Sandy Armstrong ha scritto: Most users I've spoken to about this prefer ctrl+tab because it is similar to alt+tab, and can be invoked with only the left hand. Ctrl+PgUp/Down can be invoked with only the _right_ hand using right Ctrl key. Except on a bunch of laptops and netbooks where the PgUp/Down keys are not well placed or where you have to press some FN key to access them. Keep in mind that Macbooks don't even have PgUp/down keys. You have to do some bizarre Fn+Ctrl+Shift+Up / Down to use them. And that's not nice. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
Il giorno mer, 13/01/2010 alle 08.38 -0500, Dan Winship ha scritto: On 01/13/2010 07:47 AM, Luca Ferretti wrote: Il giorno dom, 22/11/2009 alle 16.32 -0800, Sandy Armstrong ha scritto: Most users I've spoken to about this prefer ctrl+tab because it is similar to alt+tab, and can be invoked with only the left hand. Ctrl+PgUp/Down can be invoked with only the _right_ hand using right Ctrl key. Right, but when browsing the web, you'll generally have one hand on the mouse for clicking/scrollwheeling, and so for right-handed people, having the important keyboard operations be left-hand-only is nice. This case seems excessive to me. If you've one hand on your mouse, use the mouse to change tab, clicking or using the scroll wheel :P I suppose the scenario for keyboard shortcuts here is both hands on keyboard (or no ability to use the mouse). ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 8:07 AM, Luca Ferretti elle@libero.it wrote: Il giorno mer, 13/01/2010 alle 08.38 -0500, Dan Winship ha scritto: On 01/13/2010 07:47 AM, Luca Ferretti wrote: Il giorno dom, 22/11/2009 alle 16.32 -0800, Sandy Armstrong ha scritto: Most users I've spoken to about this prefer ctrl+tab because it is similar to alt+tab, and can be invoked with only the left hand. Ctrl+PgUp/Down can be invoked with only the _right_ hand using right Ctrl key. Right, but when browsing the web, you'll generally have one hand on the mouse for clicking/scrollwheeling, and so for right-handed people, having the important keyboard operations be left-hand-only is nice. This case seems excessive to me. If you've one hand on your mouse, use the mouse to change tab, clicking or using the scroll wheel :P And yet, I was about to respond identically to you before I saw that Dan beat me to it. I believe that right hand on mouse, left hand on keyboard is extremely common. Consider selecting text and copy/pasting, or using ctrl+tab to change tabs, with the mouse in the content area so you can scroll, select text, etc. So while I don't have any data outside my own usage and intuition, I really don't think it's excessive, as you say. I suppose the scenario for keyboard shortcuts here is both hands on keyboard (or no ability to use the mouse). I think that's a bit limiting, but even if we were to accept it as true, we can still say that on a full keyboard, ctrl+page up/down requires you to shift your right-hand considerably away from home row, making it fairly inconvenient. Fun fun fun, Sandy ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
I hate to force open an old topic, but this recently came up as an Ubuntu launchpad bug for their Paper Cuts project. [1] The essence of the problem is that while Ctrl-Tab is reserved by GTK for keyboard navigation, it has also been claimed by many popular applications on Windows, Mac, and Linux for tabbed-document navigation. Due to its ubiquity, the conflict is very evident in GNOME programs, where the behavior is completely different, even on the same Linux operating system - between Epiphany and Firefox, Empathy and Pidgin, Anjuta and MonoDevelop as examples. And arguably, Firefox and Pidgin are more popular than GTK and even other GTK applications (note that Pidgin itself is one). Behdad Esfahbod brought this up on desktop-devel-list, but the thread previously lost momentum. However, aside from continue as is, nothing was ever resolved. 1. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/504405 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
Hi Jud, Thanks for bringing this up. How about: those who care come up with a replacement combination for focus navigation in GTK+, and a patch to implement ctrl+tab to change tabs, and submit that for upstream inclusion and see if we get any substantial (other than breaks back-compat)? Personally I think it would be a significant compatibility step forward. behdad On 01/12/2010 08:01 PM, Jud Craft wrote: I hate to force open an old topic, but this recently came up as an Ubuntu launchpad bug for their Paper Cuts project. [1] The essence of the problem is that while Ctrl-Tab is reserved by GTK for keyboard navigation, it has also been claimed by many popular applications on Windows, Mac, and Linux for tabbed-document navigation. Due to its ubiquity, the conflict is very evident in GNOME programs, where the behavior is completely different, even on the same Linux operating system - between Epiphany and Firefox, Empathy and Pidgin, Anjuta and MonoDevelop as examples. And arguably, Firefox and Pidgin are more popular than GTK and even other GTK applications (note that Pidgin itself is one). Behdad Esfahbod brought this up on desktop-devel-list, but the thread previously lost momentum. However, aside from continue as is, nothing was ever resolved. 1. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/504405 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Calum Benson wrote: For gtk, we tried to strike the best balance we could between not throwing away peoples' prior keynav knowledge, ironing out their internal inconsistencies, and filling in the gaps as logically as we could for things that they missed or didn't exist in their platforms. I really enjoy GNOME, and I hate to be mean. And it has good points (you can in fact, navigate the whole application). But I can't help but think it has a few glaringly bizarre flaws of its own. GNOME focus navigation is at times almost infuriatingly crazy, with many special cases and inconsistent behavior for different widget -- and even in the direction of focus! (As an example: shifting backwards/forwards, as in the case of a ListView -- you can tab through the headers and the list data, but you can't shift-tab back into the list - it skips the list and goes to the headers, then you have to tab again to get back into the list). I actually don't want to be seen as vitriolic, but this bothers me so much. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
Joanmarie Diggs wrote: What about Ctrl-Up/Down for start/end of paragraph? That would be similar to Ctrl-Left/Right for navigation by word (and for fans of consistency, I believe Windows paragraph navigation is typically done this way). FWIW, the original gtk keybinding spec was put together after fairly extensively researching what Windows and Java/Swing did (those being the two platforms with the most extensive/popular keybindings, at the time). For gtk, we tried to strike the best balance we could between not throwing away peoples' prior keynav knowledge, ironing out their internal inconsistencies, and filling in the gaps as logically as we could for things that they missed or didn't exist in their platforms. If anyone wants to revisit (or better still, update) that raw data, you can find it here: http://web.archive.org/web/20080527084152/http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/keyboardnav.html Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:calum.ben...@sun.comGNOME Desktop Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On Sun, 2009-11-22 at 22:20 -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: On 11/22/2009 10:11 PM, Owen Taylor wrote: I don't think it's explicitly overriding it, it's just that the innermost widget wins for key bindings; and in a TextView Ctrl-PageUp/PageDown are start-of-line and end-of-line. Which I found kinda weird. Currently Home/End: start/end of line Ctrl-Home/End: start/end of document PageUp/PageDown: one page up/down Ctrl-PageUp/PageDown: start/end of paragraph Using the Unicode meaning of a paragraph: separate by \n. It sounds more logical to me if the Ctrl functions of Home/End and PageUp/PageDown were the other way around. That is: Home/End would work on the line/paragraph level, and PageUp/PageDown work on page/whole-document level. But that's a separate issue... Totally agreed that it's a separate issue, but on the off chance that anyone feels a sudden urge to redefine bindings ;-) I think Ctrl-Home/End make sense as start/end of document (and as an aside, if we care about consistency across platforms, that's how it works in Windows as well). My vote is that we do not change this. What about Ctrl-Up/Down for start/end of paragraph? That would be similar to Ctrl-Left/Right for navigation by word (and for fans of consistency, I believe Windows paragraph navigation is typically done this way). --joanie ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
Hi Behdad. On Sun, 2009-11-22 at 18:57 -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: As a user, I tend to agree with that sentiment. While I understand the usefulness of ctrl+tab, it's not as handy and useful as rotating between tabs. So, what can we do about it? Doesn't Ctrl + PageUp/PageDown accomplish the same thing? That's what I use to switch from tab to tab. --joanie ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On 11/22/2009 07:23 PM, Joanmarie Diggs wrote: Hi Behdad. On Sun, 2009-11-22 at 18:57 -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: As a user, I tend to agree with that sentiment. While I understand the usefulness of ctrl+tab, it's not as handy and useful as rotating between tabs. So, what can we do about it? Doesn't Ctrl + PageUp/PageDown accomplish the same thing? That's what I use to switch from tab to tab. It does. But many users are used to ctrl+tab (coming from Windows background?). That other combinations already exist explains why this have been refused consistently. It does not quite explain why one should not be able to set it as their accelerator though. behdad --joanie ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:23 PM, Joanmarie Diggs joanmarie.di...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Behdad. On Sun, 2009-11-22 at 18:57 -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: As a user, I tend to agree with that sentiment. While I understand the usefulness of ctrl+tab, it's not as handy and useful as rotating between tabs. So, what can we do about it? Doesn't Ctrl + PageUp/PageDown accomplish the same thing? That's what I use to switch from tab to tab. Most users I've spoken to about this prefer ctrl+tab because it is similar to alt+tab, and can be invoked with only the left hand. Also, what Behdad said. :-) Sandy ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On Sun, 2009-11-22 at 20:15 -0600, Shaun McCance wrote: On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 01:51 +, Iain Nicol wrote: Joanmarie Diggs wrote: On Sun, 2009-11-22 at 18:57 -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: As a user, I tend to agree with that sentiment. While I understand the usefulness of ctrl+tab, it's not as handy and useful as rotating between tabs. So, what can we do about it? Doesn't Ctrl + PageUp/PageDown accomplish the same thing? That's what I use to switch from tab to tab. Unfortunately, this isn't universal. Gedit, for example, uses Ctrl + Alt + PageUp/PageDown. (And FWIW, I'd like to be able to use Ctrl+Alt.) I'm pretty sure GtkNotebook implements Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown automatically. Is there some reason gedit overrides this? I don't think it's explicitly overriding it, it's just that the innermost widget wins for key bindings; and in a TextView Ctrl-PageUp/PageDown are start-of-line and end-of-line. - Owen ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On 11/22/2009 10:11 PM, Owen Taylor wrote: I don't think it's explicitly overriding it, it's just that the innermost widget wins for key bindings; and in a TextView Ctrl-PageUp/PageDown are start-of-line and end-of-line. Which I found kinda weird. Currently Home/End: start/end of line Ctrl-Home/End: start/end of document PageUp/PageDown: one page up/down Ctrl-PageUp/PageDown: start/end of paragraph Using the Unicode meaning of a paragraph: separate by \n. It sounds more logical to me if the Ctrl functions of Home/End and PageUp/PageDown were the other way around. That is: Home/End would work on the line/paragraph level, and PageUp/PageDown work on page/whole-document level. But that's a separate issue... behdad - Owen ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: On Ctrl+tab
On Sun, 2009-11-22 at 22:11 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: On Sun, 2009-11-22 at 20:15 -0600, Shaun McCance wrote: On Mon, 2009-11-23 at 01:51 +, Iain Nicol wrote: Joanmarie Diggs wrote: On Sun, 2009-11-22 at 18:57 -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: As a user, I tend to agree with that sentiment. While I understand the usefulness of ctrl+tab, it's not as handy and useful as rotating between tabs. So, what can we do about it? Doesn't Ctrl + PageUp/PageDown accomplish the same thing? That's what I use to switch from tab to tab. Unfortunately, this isn't universal. Gedit, for example, uses Ctrl + Alt + PageUp/PageDown. (And FWIW, I'd like to be able to use Ctrl+Alt.) I'm pretty sure GtkNotebook implements Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown automatically. Is there some reason gedit overrides this? I don't think it's explicitly overriding it, it's just that the innermost widget wins for key bindings; and in a TextView Ctrl-PageUp/PageDown are start-of-line and end-of-line. Ah, I didn't realize that. If Ctrl+PageUp/PageDown are valuable for that, then I'd think we'd want to push to have them work in other text editing widgets, like in Evolution, or in text fields in a web form. Or even in non-editable views, like a web page with caret browsing enabled. These sorts of things are often in GtkNotebooks, so conflicts like in gedit are inevitable. So that seems like a good reason to use Ctrl+Tab instead for tab switching. Of course, that would leave us with a big hole in our keyboard navigation. We need some sort of super Tab to break out of widgets that consume Tab. (On the other hand, I agree with Behdad that the Ctrl+PageUp behavior on GtkTextView is kind of weird.) -- Shaun ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
