Re: pulseaudio vs gnome
On 1/20/07, Marc-André Lureau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/20/07, Ronald S. Bultje [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2007-01-20, Damon chaplin wrote: Before it goes in I'd like to see a clear roadmap for audio in GNOME, with support for things from simple beeps up to pro-audio apps. I guess this means gstreamer, PulseAudio and JACK. Is that the plan? esd is in the platform because it already is. Realistically, it doesn't belong here. Any replacement technology _to have complete feature equiality with esd_ should be completely optional and a user should be snip! That probably means something like GStreamer to make it bearable for applications that really don't care and just want to play song.mp3 or beeps. And that should suffice. This remark pops up an interesting question: do we really want gnome apps linked to GStreamer to play bling? Furthermore, is GStreamer API suitable for a simple desktop applications (nautilus, mozilla, notify, bling API...) ? I have posted a proposal to define an API for desktop sound on freedesktop/dapi/gnome-media mailing lists (without much success) - but once again, we don't care about implementation at this stage (wether it uses a daemon or not, if it use GStreamer or Pulse or anything else). I really think we need to discuss such idea to replace the libgnome sound API. Of course, it would be good to have people from GStreamer/DBus/PulseAudio discuss such idea also. Just an fyi, but In embedded systems running Gtk+, you don't want to have to spend the time to initialize/start up Gstreamer just to play bling. The time lag is far too great. You limit Gstreamer use to items like movie and music playback - not system pings. Sean If you look at the code that use esd directly, its only because libgnome doesn't provide a simple/complete sound API. And now its time to fix libgnome sound to get rid of esd. At the same time, lets bring some new cool things like theming/positionning/introspection control... But that is probably not the good place to discuss this in detail. After FOMS and DAM3, one has said that new mailing lists will be created to discuss desktop audio API. I would like to define also a *sound desktop* API. Where are those mailing lists? anyone? enough for now, best regards, -- Marc-André Lureau, GSmartMix ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: pulseaudio vs gnome
Just an fyi, but In embedded systems running Gtk+, you don't want to have to spend the time to initialize/start up Gstreamer just to play bling. The time lag is far too great. You limit Gstreamer use to items like movie and music playback - not system pings. But on systems that will want to do more impressive audio/visual stuff sometimes anyway, such as the Nokia N770/N800, wouldn't you want gstreamer to be loaded and initialized already anyway? Then there shouldn't (theoretically) be any delay in playing a system beep. Obviously, for very simple systems even this would be excessive. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: pulseaudio vs gnome
On Sex, 2007-02-02 at 14:19 +0100, Murray Cumming wrote: Just an fyi, but In embedded systems running Gtk+, you don't want to have to spend the time to initialize/start up Gstreamer just to play bling. The time lag is far too great. You limit Gstreamer use to items like movie and music playback - not system pings. But on systems that will want to do more impressive audio/visual stuff sometimes anyway, such as the Nokia N770/N800, wouldn't you want gstreamer to be loaded and initialized already anyway? Then there shouldn't (theoretically) be any delay in playing a system beep. Systems do not want to do impressive audio/visual stuff; it's applications that want that. It makes no sense for all applications to initialize GStreamer if only one or two of them need to do audio or multimedia stuff. If you want to avoid delay when playing a beep, then all apps will have to initialize GStreamer and precache an audio sample. Startup time and memory costs pile up. It's much better to have a simple sound server (which can use GStreamer) and a simple client API; a full fledged GStreamer library is overkill for most apps IMHO. -- Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The universe is always one step beyond logic. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: pulseaudio vs gnome
On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 13:40 +, Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro wrote: On Sex, 2007-02-02 at 14:19 +0100, Murray Cumming wrote: Just an fyi, but In embedded systems running Gtk+, you don't want to have to spend the time to initialize/start up Gstreamer just to play bling. The time lag is far too great. You limit Gstreamer use to items like movie and music playback - not system pings. But on systems that will want to do more impressive audio/visual stuff sometimes anyway, such as the Nokia N770/N800, wouldn't you want gstreamer to be loaded and initialized already anyway? Then there shouldn't (theoretically) be any delay in playing a system beep. Systems do not want to do impressive audio/visual stuff; it's applications that want that. It makes no sense for all applications to initialize GStreamer if only one or two of them need to do audio or multimedia stuff. If _even one_ of them wants to do it then it may make sense to have it pre-initialized, just as you'd expect esd to be initialized after logging into GNOME now. Assuming that initialization is actually slow. I had not considered per-application memory costs, which is indeed worth worrying about. If you want to avoid delay when playing a beep, then all apps will have to initialize GStreamer and precache an audio sample. Startup time and memory costs pile up. It's much better to have a simple sound server (which can use GStreamer) and a simple client API; a full fledged GStreamer library is overkill for most apps IMHO. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: pulseaudio vs gnome
If you want to avoid delay when playing a beep, then all apps will have to initialize GStreamer and precache an audio sample. Startup time and memory costs pile up. It's much better to have a simple sound server (which can use GStreamer) and a simple client API; a full fledged GStreamer library is overkill for most apps IMHO. There is a patch to notification-daemon to play sound on events with gstreamer. Of course it needs support for caching right now and for selection of different sounds, but it can be considered already as a sound server. Thanks a lot to lack for writing the patch. http://trac.galago-project.org/ticket/111 ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: pulseaudio vs gnome
On Wed, 2007-01-24 at 21:48 +0900, Davyd Madeley wrote: On Fri, 2007-01-19 at 23:36 +, Damon Chaplin wrote: On Fri, 2007-01-19 at 11:36 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: Hey, I just wondered what the current state of affairs is in the esound - pulseaudio transition. I found a wiki page (http://live.gnome.org/PulseAudio?highlight=%28pulse%29), but I'm not sure how uptodate it is. Is this something that we can still complete for 2.18 ? Is anybody working on this ? Before it goes in I'd like to see a clear roadmap for audio in GNOME, with support for things from simple beeps up to pro-audio apps. I guess this means gstreamer, PulseAudio and JACK. Is that the plan? Lennart, who develops PulseAudio, recently spoke about it at linux.conf.au: http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2007/video/talks/211.ogg (disclaimer, I don't know what the video quality is like) He speaks about what PulseAudio can do, why you'd chose it over technology X and how it might integrate with specific problem domain technologies, such as Jack. Might clear some things up. Yes, thanks. It's a very good talk. Lennart agrees that JACK is still needed for pro-audio apps, and that PulseAudio should work alongside it in some way (or possibly even merge with it in the future). Though the details were a bit sketchy. Hopefully we can get him to clarify it a bit more at some point. Damon ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: pulseaudio vs gnome
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 16:26 -0500, Ronald S. Bultje wrote: On Sat, 2007-01-20, Damon chaplin wrote: Before it goes in I'd like to see a clear roadmap for audio in GNOME, with support for things from simple beeps up to pro-audio apps. I guess this means gstreamer, PulseAudio and JACK. Is that the plan? Wait wait wait wait wait. Are you suggesting that all this will be GNOME technology? I thought the whole idea was to say that audio is a system thing? Because it is! On Linux, there is alsa, and if you need software-mixing, then there is dmix, and I'm sure stuff doesn't work for non-Linux, thin clients and some hardcore dudes and those that apparently can't even get their audio working (and then they blame dmix), so there's jack or pulse (and/or both?) for them. So GNOME should include all of that? Please no! I just want it to be possible to use develop audio applications on top of GNOME (without fiddling about to make it all work). I'm not saying JACK should be part of GNOME, though maybe it should become a dependency - it does seem to be used by most audio apps. We have all the technology to produce a decent audio platform. Why not just connect it all together and get it to work out-of-the-box? Damon ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: pulseaudio vs gnome
On Sat, 2007-01-20, Damon chaplin wrote: Before it goes in I'd like to see a clear roadmap for audio in GNOME, with support for things from simple beeps up to pro-audio apps. I guess this means gstreamer, PulseAudio and JACK. Is that the plan? Wait wait wait wait wait. Are you suggesting that all this will be GNOME technology? I thought the whole idea was to say that audio is a system thing? Because it is! On Linux, there is alsa, and if you need software-mixing, then there is dmix, and I'm sure stuff doesn't work for non-Linux, thin clients and some hardcore dudes and those that apparently can't even get their audio working (and then they blame dmix), so there's jack or pulse (and/or both?) for them. So GNOME should include all of that? Please no! esd is in the platform because it already is. Realistically, it doesn't belong here. Any replacement technology _to have complete feature equiality with esd_ should be completely optional and a user should be able to use GNOME without needing to use it and without needing to even have it installed. Why? Because the whole soundserver for mixing concept is pointless for many people with a decent soundcard, and for the majority of the remainder, alsa/dmix should suffice. Pulse / jack are undoubtedly really cool techniques on which a whole lot of effort was spent, but they don't belong in GNOME, as part of GNOME or anything like that. We're not networked thin clients, most of us run GNOME on a desktop or laptop, and most of us run a recent Linux distro with a 2.6 kernel. The audience requiring alternate technologies is too small and too varied to justify putting all those technologies in GNOME. They would, at best, be recommended technologies to get audio working in some specific situations (e.g. thin clients, or audio applications with certain low-latency requirements) in a howto or in the GNOME documentation. Other than that, it really isn't our problem. That probably means something like GStreamer to make it bearable for applications that really don't care and just want to play song.mp3 or beeps. And that should suffice. Ronald ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: pulseaudio vs gnome
I think that bells and whistles belong in a model similar to Freedesktop Notifications, but all other multimedia functionality should be done with GStreamer directly. On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 00:17 +0200, Marc-André Lureau wrote: On 1/20/07, Ronald S. Bultje [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2007-01-20, Damon chaplin wrote: Before it goes in I'd like to see a clear roadmap for audio in GNOME, with support for things from simple beeps up to pro-audio apps. I guess this means gstreamer, PulseAudio and JACK. Is that the plan? esd is in the platform because it already is. Realistically, it doesn't belong here. Any replacement technology _to have complete feature equiality with esd_ should be completely optional and a user should be I started to write the l.g.o/PulseAudio page just to track the progress and see who is interested to make this happen. Now, its getting interesting and hopefully good thing will happen soon. I agree with what Ronald wrote. Those are technologies that should not be *part of* GNOME. And unfortunately, the dependency GNOME have on esd (which is not really that important btw) is due to the broken API of libgnome. Straight to the point, that is clear that no application should use directly PulseAudio/Jack if they want to be *GNOME compliant* (even if I don't really know what *compliant* mean :). But note that PulseAudio is a bit more than a esd replacement. And we probably have to think how we will provide/export its goodness internal state/parameters/configuration to GNOME. Just take a look at all the cool apps that comes with PulseAudio. Of course, they are a bit complicated, but we can write a simplified preference applet. That makes me slightly think that PulseAudio *might* be part of GNOME anyway, but this should be discussed in the future. Make the sound server choosable/transparent is enough for now. That probably means something like GStreamer to make it bearable for applications that really don't care and just want to play song.mp3 or beeps. And that should suffice. This remark pops up an interesting question: do we really want gnome apps linked to GStreamer to play bling? Furthermore, is GStreamer API suitable for a simple desktop applications (nautilus, mozilla, notify, bling API...) ? I have posted a proposal to define an API for desktop sound on freedesktop/dapi/gnome-media mailing lists (without much success) - but once again, we don't care about implementation at this stage (wether it uses a daemon or not, if it use GStreamer or Pulse or anything else). I really think we need to discuss such idea to replace the libgnome sound API. Of course, it would be good to have people from GStreamer/DBus/PulseAudio discuss such idea also. If you look at the code that use esd directly, its only because libgnome doesn't provide a simple/complete sound API. And now its time to fix libgnome sound to get rid of esd. At the same time, lets bring some new cool things like theming/positionning/introspection control... But that is probably not the good place to discuss this in detail. After FOMS and DAM3, one has said that new mailing lists will be created to discuss desktop audio API. I would like to define also a *sound desktop* API. Where are those mailing lists? anyone? enough for now, best regards, -- Marc-André Lureau, GSmartMix ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: pulseaudio vs gnome
On Fri, 2007-01-19 at 11:36 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: Hey, I just wondered what the current state of affairs is in the esound - pulseaudio transition. I found a wiki page (http://live.gnome.org/PulseAudio?highlight=%28pulse%29), but I'm not sure how uptodate it is. Is this something that we can still complete for 2.18 ? Is anybody working on this ? Before it goes in I'd like to see a clear roadmap for audio in GNOME, with support for things from simple beeps up to pro-audio apps. I guess this means gstreamer, PulseAudio and JACK. Is that the plan? Damon ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
