Re: System-wide dark mode

[Germán Poo-Caamaño]

On Thu, 2019-06-06 at 11:41 +0200, Milan Crha via desktop-devel-list
wrote:
> On Wed, 2019-06-05 at 23:14 +0500, Alexander via desktop-devel-list
> wrote:
> > Since WebKit supports Apple's dark mode now, I wonder if mail
> > clients (and also Devhelp/Builder) will be able to provide styles
> > for
> > dark mode with that.
> 
> from one of the mail application point of view (being it Evolution
> here), the problem with HTML mails is that some clients did/do
> generate HTML where they declare only text color, but no background
> color, and bet the text color is black. Black text color on a dark
> theme background is not ideal for reading, thus the HTML mails are
> set to use white background by default. When you count all the (not
> only) CSS tricks and various elements it's not that easy to change
> the color of the text in an HTML code generated by "random" mail
> client. I know it's awful and bad for eyes in the dark theme, but
> there was not found anything better.

A workaround is using a "darker" background that still plays nice with
black text.

-- 
Germán Poo-Caamaño
https://calcifer.org/




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Re: System-wide dark mode

[mcatanzaro]

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 1:14 PM, Alexander  wrote:
Since WebKit supports Apple's dark mode now, I wonder if mail clients 
(and also Devhelp/Builder) will be able to provide styles for dark 
mode with that.


Well we really don't, not yet. That's what I've been trying to say

Once we do, mailers could add color-schemes to the CSS to indicate 
support for dark mode. That will be automatically supported once 
WebKitGTK supports the color-schemes property. If Apple Mail already 
supports this, as I suspect, then mailers will start using it soon.


Like Milan says, it will never be safe to use for arbitrary HTML mails. 
HTML is always going to need to opt-in.


Michael


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Re: System-wide dark mode

[Milan Crha via desktop-devel-list]

On Wed, 2019-06-05 at 23:14 +0500, Alexander via desktop-devel-list
wrote:
> Since WebKit supports Apple's dark mode now, I wonder if mail
> clients (and also Devhelp/Builder) will be able to provide styles for
> dark mode with that.

Hi,
from one of the mail application point of view (being it Evolution
here), the problem with HTML mails is that some clients did/do generate
HTML where they declare only text color, but no background color, and
bet the text color is black. Black text color on a dark theme
background is not ideal for reading, thus the HTML mails are set to use
white background by default. When you count all the (not only) CSS
tricks and various elements it's not that easy to change the color of
the text in an HTML code generated by "random" mail client. I know it's
awful and bad for eyes in the dark theme, but there was not found
anything better.

Plain text messages are different, there's no formatting, thus the
user's theme is respected with them.
Bye,
Milan

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Re: System-wide dark mode

[Alexander via desktop-devel-list]

Since WebKit supports Apple's dark mode now, I wonder if mail clients 
(and also Devhelp/Builder) will be able to provide styles for dark mode 
with that.


On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 11:44 AM, Tristan Van Berkom via 
desktop-devel-list  wrote:

I've been meaning to reply somewhere in this thread... I am a user
of the dark theme via the tweak tool.

In the GNOME 2 days, we did some effort in Glade to ensure that we 
were
compatible with HCI themes (high contrast invert as we called them), 
as

I recall we also ensured on a GNOME wide level that our icons were
compatible with HCI themes - likely many GTK+ apps ported forward from
the GNOME 2 days will already work well out of the box with a dark
theme due to previous efforts.

While I did not use the HCI themes back then, I really like the dark
theme that I have been using with GNOME 3.

On Mon, 2019-06-03 at 07:46 -0500, mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote:

 On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 5:40 AM, Allan Day  wrote:
 > If the size of the theme is the issue, do we know what size is
 > acceptable?

 For WebKit to be able to handle this, the required performance
 improvement would be measured in orders of magnitude. I don't know
 about Firefox.

 Without changes in GTK to allow us to use multiple themes at once, 
or

 instantaneously switch between themes, we can either give you broken
 dark mode (the status quo in both WebKit and Firefox), or we can 
give

 you light mode (my recommendation).


Are you saying that WebKitGTK interprets the system theme and CSS to
render the HTML content ? This does seem a bit unintuitive to me for
web content, but I suppose it is useful for cases where apps want to
embed HTML that they themselves control.

That said, as a dark theme user I doubt that having the web browser
(which I usually put fullscreen anyway) being in light mode is going 
to

stop people from using a dark theme.

Anecdotally, currently my biggest issue with the dark theme is that
receiving HTML emails is even more of an annoyance, as I get a flashy
attention grabbing white background in Evolution for any HTML email:
Even though it annoys me a lot, it's not enough for me to switch to a
light theme.

Cheers,
-Tristan

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Re: System-wide dark mode

[mcatanzaro]

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 1:44 AM, Tristan Van Berkom 
 wrote:

Are you saying that WebKitGTK interprets the system theme and CSS to
render the HTML content ?


Yes, as does Firefox.


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Re: System-wide dark mode

[Tristan Van Berkom via desktop-devel-list]

I've been meaning to reply somewhere in this thread... I am a user
of the dark theme via the tweak tool.

In the GNOME 2 days, we did some effort in Glade to ensure that we were
compatible with HCI themes (high contrast invert as we called them), as
I recall we also ensured on a GNOME wide level that our icons were
compatible with HCI themes - likely many GTK+ apps ported forward from
the GNOME 2 days will already work well out of the box with a dark
theme due to previous efforts.

While I did not use the HCI themes back then, I really like the dark
theme that I have been using with GNOME 3.

On Mon, 2019-06-03 at 07:46 -0500, mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 5:40 AM, Allan Day  wrote:
> > If the size of the theme is the issue, do we know what size is 
> > acceptable?
> 
> For WebKit to be able to handle this, the required performance 
> improvement would be measured in orders of magnitude. I don't know 
> about Firefox.
> 
> Without changes in GTK to allow us to use multiple themes at once, or 
> instantaneously switch between themes, we can either give you broken 
> dark mode (the status quo in both WebKit and Firefox), or we can give 
> you light mode (my recommendation).

Are you saying that WebKitGTK interprets the system theme and CSS to
render the HTML content ? This does seem a bit unintuitive to me for
web content, but I suppose it is useful for cases where apps want to
embed HTML that they themselves control.

That said, as a dark theme user I doubt that having the web browser
(which I usually put fullscreen anyway) being in light mode is going to
stop people from using a dark theme.

Anecdotally, currently my biggest issue with the dark theme is that
receiving HTML emails is even more of an annoyance, as I get a flashy
attention grabbing white background in Evolution for any HTML email:
Even though it annoys me a lot, it's not enough for me to switch to a
light theme.

Cheers,
-Tristan

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Re: System-wide dark mode

[mcatanzaro]

On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 5:40 AM, Allan Day  wrote:
If the size of the theme is the issue, do we know what size is 
acceptable?


For WebKit to be able to handle this, the required performance 
improvement would be measured in orders of magnitude. I don't know 
about Firefox.


Without changes in GTK to allow us to use multiple themes at once, or 
instantaneously switch between themes, we can either give you broken 
dark mode (the status quo in both WebKit and Firefox), or we can give 
you light mode (my recommendation).


Michael


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Re: System-wide dark mode

[Allan Day]

Matthias Clasen  wrote:
>> ... We can't implement that without design changes in GTK since
>> for that we need the ability to *very quickly* switch between different
>> themes in the same process, and that's currently too slow.
>
>
> Unlikely to change, tbh. If your theme is loading too slowly, it is too big...

If the size of the theme is the issue, do we know what size is acceptable?

Allan
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Re: System-wide dark mode

[Michael Gratton]

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 09:58, mcatanz...@gnome.org wrote:
The current behavior, in our current world where there is no dark 
mode preference, is that if you select a dark theme, a ton of 
websites break, because most websites are not prepared for dark mode 
and will draw e.g. dark text on dark backgrounds. So if we make dark 
mode an officially-supported option, the very least we need to do is 
force light mode on all websites, even if dark mode is enabled, to 
avoid this breakage.


Somewhat relatedly, it would be good to have a policy about how WYSIWYG 
content editors (word processors, image editors, email apps, etc) 
should behave with regard to dark mode for the content view itself, 
since people using dark mode may prefer the content view to reflect the 
mode (i.e. default to a dark document background), however that may 
have unintended effects when the content is viewed elsewhere.


//Mike

--
⊨ Michael Gratton, Percept Wrangler.
⚙ 


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Re: System-wide dark mode

[Matthias Clasen via desktop-devel-list]

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 10:58 AM  wrote:

> On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 4:15 AM, Allan Day  wrote:
> > How does this relate to the dark mode in WebKit?
> >
> > I was hoping that Web would follow the system-wide dark mode
> > preference, and expose it to websites...
>
> The ideal, desired behavior is to enable dark mode on any websites that
> opt-in to dark mode, if and only if the user has selected the dark mode
> preference. We can't implement that without design changes in GTK since
> for that we need the ability to *very quickly* switch between different
> themes in the same process, and that's currently too slow.
>

Unlikely to change, tbh. If your theme is loading too slowly, it is too
big...
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Re: System-wide dark mode

[mcatanzaro]

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 4:15 AM, Allan Day  wrote:

How does this relate to the dark mode in WebKit?

I was hoping that Web would follow the system-wide dark mode 
preference, and expose it to websites...


The ideal, desired behavior is to enable dark mode on any websites that 
opt-in to dark mode, if and only if the user has selected the dark mode 
preference. We can't implement that without design changes in GTK since 
for that we need the ability to *very quickly* switch between different 
themes in the same process, and that's currently too slow.


The current behavior, in our current world where there is no dark mode 
preference, is that if you select a dark theme, a ton of websites 
break, because most websites are not prepared for dark mode and will 
draw e.g. dark text on dark backgrounds. So if we make dark mode an 
officially-supported option, the very least we need to do is force 
light mode on all websites, even if dark mode is enabled, to avoid this 
breakage. That's already sort of possible to do using heuristics, e.g. 
removing "dark" from the end of the theme name and hoping it makes a 
valid theme, but that's hardly a good solution. A more official control 
would be better. Notably, it *will not* be possible to do if dark mode 
is controlled by a gsetting, since we can't change the value of a 
gsetting for just a single process.


Michael


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Re: System-wide dark mode

[Allan Day]

 wrote:

> On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 8:35 AM, Allan Day  wrote:
> > Therefore, before we get too far into planning and implementing this
> > feature: does anyone know of any serious obstacles they'd face, if we
> > were to support a dark mode?
>
> WebKit is having trouble with this now:
>
> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126907
>

How does this relate to the dark mode in WebKit?

I was hoping that Web would follow the system-wide dark mode preference,
and expose it to websites...

Allan
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Re: System-wide dark mode

[Christopher Davis via desktop-devel-list]

From a core app perspective, there are some interesting mockups jimmac 
did for Weather that I'm not sure would mesh well with a global dark 
theme since most things are colored manually. See here:



From a non-core app perspective, Fractal uses @theme_selected_bg_color 
to match the color of usernames to the highlighted room. This doesn't 
work
on Adwaita dark because the contrast is poor between the background and 
the blue text.


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Re: System-wide dark mode

[Alexander via desktop-devel-list]

Blue labels in Calendar become somewhat hard to read with dark mode: 
https://imgur.com/xsqPaBG


On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 9:24 PM, Georges Basile Stavracas Neto via 
desktop-devel-list  wrote:
GNOME Settings, GNOME Calendar and GNOME To Do all work fine on dark 
mode.


Em qua, 29 de mai de 2019 às 13:17, Alberto Fanjul Alonso via 
desktop-devel-list  escreveu:

Great news, I'm big fan and totally support to test this feature.

As gitg maintainer, there're a couple of problems. Gitg uses cookies 
for diff (red for removes, green for adds) we have our own setup for 
dark and light, but a wide set of colours from system would be great.


About dark mode itself, we use a hacky algorithm to detect dark 
mode, a system property will be nice, but in general dark mode 
defines several setups and could lead to several valid configs.


El mié., 29 may. 2019 15:36, Allan Day  escribió:

Hi everyone,

Whether you love dark modes or hate them, they're becoming fairly 
ubiquitous nowadays, and I think that it's time for GNOME to 
seriously think about having one of its own.


If we were to support a system-wide dark preference in GNOME, the 
implication is that we'd generally support it: the desktop and the 
core apps would be expected to use a dark variant of the theme when 
it is selected by the user. Therefore, before we get too far into 
planning and implementing this feature: does anyone know of any 
serious obstacles they'd face, if we were to support a dark mode?


If you're responsible for any core GNOME UI, you can test this by 
setting the Adwaita-dark theme in Tweaks.


Thanks,

Allan
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Re: System-wide dark mode

[Kalev Lember via desktop-devel-list]

On 5/29/19 15:35, Allan Day wrote:

Hi everyone,

Whether you love dark modes or hate them, they're becoming fairly 
ubiquitous nowadays, and I think that it's time for GNOME to seriously 
think about having one of its own.


If we were to support a system-wide dark preference in GNOME, the 
implication is that we'd generally support it: the desktop and the core 
apps would be expected to use a dark variant of the theme when it is 
selected by the user. Therefore, before we get too far into planning and 
implementing this feature: does anyone know of any serious obstacles 
they'd face, if we were to support a dark mode?


Screenshots in gnome-software are probably going to get a bit messy,
with some apps shipping their screenshots using the light theme and some
using the dark theme. I don't think it would scale to ask app upstreams
to ship both screenshots, so I think we'll just have to live with this.

Beyond that, there's minor work required in gnome-software to make sure
everything looks good, but nothing that I know that is showstopper.

Kalev
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Re: System-wide dark mode

[mcatanzaro]

On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 8:35 AM, Allan Day  wrote:
Therefore, before we get too far into planning and implementing this 
feature: does anyone know of any serious obstacles they'd face, if we 
were to support a dark mode?


WebKit is having trouble with this now:

https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126907

We need help from GTK developers to make it possible to use multiple 
themes in the same process without large performance penalties. 
Otherwise we need to change WebKit to try to switch to a light theme 
always. Currently it uses the current theme even if it's dark, and 
websites are broken, making it impractical to actually choose a dark 
system theme.


Michael


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Re: System-wide dark mode

[Georges Basile Stavracas Neto via desktop-devel-list]

GNOME Settings, GNOME Calendar and GNOME To Do all work fine on dark mode.

Em qua, 29 de mai de 2019 às 13:17, Alberto Fanjul Alonso via
desktop-devel-list  escreveu:

> Great news, I'm big fan and totally support to test this feature.
>
> As gitg maintainer, there're a couple of problems. Gitg uses cookies for
> diff (red for removes, green for adds) we have our own setup for dark and
> light, but a wide set of colours from system would be great.
>
> About dark mode itself, we use a hacky algorithm to detect dark mode, a
> system property will be nice, but in general dark mode defines several
> setups and could lead to several valid configs.
>
> El mié., 29 may. 2019 15:36, Allan Day  escribió:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Whether you love dark modes or hate them, they're becoming fairly
>> ubiquitous nowadays, and I think that it's time for GNOME to seriously
>> think about having one of its own.
>>
>> If we were to support a system-wide dark preference in GNOME, the
>> implication is that we'd generally support it: the desktop and the core
>> apps would be expected to use a dark variant of the theme when it is
>> selected by the user. Therefore, before we get too far into planning and
>> implementing this feature: does anyone know of any serious obstacles they'd
>> face, if we were to support a dark mode?
>>
>> If you're responsible for any core GNOME UI, you can test this by setting
>> the Adwaita-dark theme in Tweaks.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Allan
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Re: System-wide dark mode

[Alberto Fanjul Alonso via desktop-devel-list]

Great news, I'm big fan and totally support to test this feature.

As gitg maintainer, there're a couple of problems. Gitg uses cookies for
diff (red for removes, green for adds) we have our own setup for dark and
light, but a wide set of colours from system would be great.

About dark mode itself, we use a hacky algorithm to detect dark mode, a
system property will be nice, but in general dark mode defines several
setups and could lead to several valid configs.

El mié., 29 may. 2019 15:36, Allan Day  escribió:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Whether you love dark modes or hate them, they're becoming fairly
> ubiquitous nowadays, and I think that it's time for GNOME to seriously
> think about having one of its own.
>
> If we were to support a system-wide dark preference in GNOME, the
> implication is that we'd generally support it: the desktop and the core
> apps would be expected to use a dark variant of the theme when it is
> selected by the user. Therefore, before we get too far into planning and
> implementing this feature: does anyone know of any serious obstacles they'd
> face, if we were to support a dark mode?
>
> If you're responsible for any core GNOME UI, you can test this by setting
> the Adwaita-dark theme in Tweaks.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Allan
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System-wide dark mode

[Allan Day]

Hi everyone,

Whether you love dark modes or hate them, they're becoming fairly
ubiquitous nowadays, and I think that it's time for GNOME to seriously
think about having one of its own.

If we were to support a system-wide dark preference in GNOME, the
implication is that we'd generally support it: the desktop and the core
apps would be expected to use a dark variant of the theme when it is
selected by the user. Therefore, before we get too far into planning and
implementing this feature: does anyone know of any serious obstacles they'd
face, if we were to support a dark mode?

If you're responsible for any core GNOME UI, you can test this by setting
the Adwaita-dark theme in Tweaks.

Thanks,

Allan
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