Re: switching to g-c-c shell? [Was: Re: Control center and capplet merging]
On 7 Jul 2005, at 19:57, Carlos Garnacho wrote: The screenshot that Calum posted looks quite sweet, I'm already thinking about how could we implement something like that. The usual caveat: Apple may or may not have managed to patent some of their design and implementation up to the hilt, of course. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Java Desktop System Team http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: switching to g-c-c shell? [Was: Re: Control center and capplet merging]
On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 11:43 +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: snip (As hideous as the Sound crapplet is), Martin has put a choose your output device dropdown in the Sound crapplet in breezy, and some hotplugging stuff to go with it. If we didn't have so much trouble with middle layers of the audio stack (read: mixing), this is what the user-interesting functionality would be. This needs some... integrationary massage before going upstream, but it's a good step. Does Martin read utopia-list? I posted about that in more details last week after a talk with Matthew. I do see the value in configuring a custom default video sink though. Let me go do that now. Not. So, the argument here is that sometimes XVideo doesn't work, yada yada. In Windows, you turn video acceleration on and off, much like Totem's options for TV out. Maybe that's one way of keeping it around, but less confusing. I don't agree. Even having to turn video acceleration off is gross. Why would you ever want to disable acceleration? At worse, it should be in GConf. --- Bastien Nocera [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oliver [Stone] is a brilliant director, but he's a horrible person. -- Joe Pesci ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: switching to g-c-c shell? [Was: Re: Control center and capplet merging]
Le jeudi 07 juillet 2005 à 10:57 +0100, Bastien Nocera a écrit : On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 11:43 +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: snip (As hideous as the Sound crapplet is), Martin has put a choose your output device dropdown in the Sound crapplet in breezy, and some hotplugging stuff to go with it. If we didn't have so much trouble with middle layers of the audio stack (read: mixing), this is what the user-interesting functionality would be. This needs some... integrationary massage before going upstream, but it's a good step. Does Martin read utopia-list? He does. About the sound selector mentionned by Martin has put that on bugzilla and is waiting for comments/to discussion about this: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=305907 Cheers, Sebastien Bacher ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: switching to g-c-c shell? [Was: Re: Control center and capplet merging]
On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 18:26 +0200, Carlos Garnacho wrote: Categories *do* help people find what they're looking for, ask any secretary :), it's true that's it's more or less far from the ideal where we want to arrive, but I think it's a lot closer than the current preferences status. Right now when you want to change some setting you have to exercise/spend whether: Yes, but ask that same secretary to use _your_ categorization names/methods instead of their own to find their stuff, that's the real problem. ;-) What I'm calling this problem is, Unnecessary Display of Arbitrary Categories (UDAC), i.e. categories by programmers hopefully for users to try to hide the complexity of the system. Unnecessary because no one wants to navigate an arbitrary hierarchy. Arbitrary because we made them, which means they probably won't make sense to everyone else. I believe Novell's usability testing showed a number of places where UDAC caused headaches to people who didn't know how to navigate the categories properly. Besides that, we're already using categorization, for better or for worse, in lots of parts of the desktop (Applications menu, GtkNotebooks and GtkFrames themselves are a way to categorize information), so IMHO not doing this with preferences because we don't have a good-for-all solution definitely isn't a step forward. I see the applications menu as a great example of UDAC, and if you look at the sections of the HIG regarding Frames and Notebooks it's no mistake that there are many cautionary notes in the Guidelines regarding using these things. The old applets right click menu had this problem as well. The new applet popup solves this, but creates a problem where it lays everything out in a pretty big list. My recommendation for the new applet menu is to have a little search entry that dynamically searches keywords/descriptions of the applets in the list. It's not that categorization should be stripped entirely from the desktop. Categories do provide good ways of sorting items and are valuable keywords in searches. Most search systems I recommend [1] incorporate search and browse techniques which need categories. However, just switching to the shell seems to me more like shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic than attacking the real problem. I'm pushing to see, switching to g-c-c shell with search! in the spirit of Calum's response earlier, that way we're shuffling deck chairs in order to build another ship. Vote no on UDAC! Cheers, ~ Bryan [1] http://mail.gnome.org/archives/dashboard-hackers/2004-September/msg00094.html ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: switching to g-c-c shell? [Was: Re: Control center and capplet merging]
My recommendation for the new applet menu is to have a little search entry that dynamically searches keywords/descriptions of the applets in the list. From a usability point of view this is a fantastic feature. OS X and Spotlight do this extremely well b/c it searches through the help system when going through the administration interface (at least I think it does). So when someone looks in their control panel/admin area, they get a search entry where they can do something like Connect to Wireless where the appropriate options are then highlighted in the interface. The highlighting is definitely slick but the more helpful aspect is the integration of search. Beagle does this and does it well so it seems a good option to consider. On the categorization front, I don't believe it is the categories that are the problem but rather the presentation of them. Imagine a large report or paper. You use sub headings and tables to organize the data so it is easier to read. There are easily scanable areas along with more detailed sections so that a reader can easily use the data as needed. We should use this kind of idea in displaying our longer lists, whether it is a control panel or list of applets. In other making physical separation (ie nested menus or new windows) may not be as effective and efficient as simpler visual separations. Eric ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: switching to g-c-c shell? [Was: Re: Control center and capplet merging]
On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 20:57 +0200, Carlos Garnacho wrote: It's not that categorization should be stripped entirely from the desktop. Categories do provide good ways of sorting items and are valuable keywords in searches. Most search systems I recommend [1] incorporate search and browse techniques which need categories. However, just switching to the shell seems to me more like shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic than attacking the real problem. I'm pushing to see, switching to g-c-c shell with search! in the spirit of Calum's response earlier, that way we're shuffling deck chairs in order to build another ship. Man, I was suggesting what I think that could be a good first step, wasn't saying in any way to just stay there :) The screenshot that Calum posted looks quite sweet, I'm already thinking about how could we implement something like that. Well get to work dude! I demand inspiring visions! :-D Perhaps we (and other relevant parties of interest) should discuss this design and implementation on IRC. Then report back to this thread. Cheers, ~ Bryan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
switching to g-c-c shell? [Was: Re: Control center and capplet merging]
On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 14:11 -0400, Rodney Dawes wrote: Merging items could be useful. However, I don't think just shoving the same existing UI into multiple tabs in a single dialog will help really. It will just mean less things in the menu, and more confusion to users who are looking for things that are no longer there. See gnome-control-center. This is in gnome upstream now. However, it is totally hidden. :-/ Seems a bit annoying for me too, in fact, I've been working during 2.11 to get gnome-control-center in shape, by adding better/faster layout functions, RTL support and accessibility support (all of this is now in CVS [1]), now I'd like to propose it as the default way to access preferences. Some may think that it could encourage people to add more capplets, but that's already happening, in the last 2 releases we've added Multimedia systems selector, Remote desktop and Removable drives and media, so we should at least find a way for not punishing users because we don't follow our own rules :) (HIG says that when there are more than 15 elements in a menu, better think in displaying information in other way) So here's my vote to get rid of that horrid submenu :) Regards [1] might look like this: http://www.gnome.org/~carlosg/stuff/control-center/g-c-c.png -- dobey On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 09:14 -0400, Eric Larson wrote: On the usability front, I am not sure it is best to merge tools. While it does make some sense it could also be more confusing to the user because it forces the user to deal with fonts when they only want to change the theme. I think the larger issue is not how many system/admin tools there are but rather how they are organized. This is a subtle difference but I think it makes some sense. BTW, I am using debian unstable if anyone would like to know what I am seeing. The Desktop menu on the panel has a huge amount of options which are organized into one long list. It seems things could be better by having an actual control panel that could help to organize different areas better. Something in nautilus where the view shows a title and break before showing icons specific to that group could be helpful in organizing the mass of preferences while keeping each individual interface clean and simple. Although, I am a bit bias, Ximian desktop does this. It needs work of course because it is pretty out of date, but if we consider things like windows users and mac users, a control panel type window that shows preferences in an organized fashion may be very usable. This is Just my two cents of course :) I am not sure of the current scope or context of this problme so I apologize in advanced if it is not relevant. Eric ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: switching to g-c-c shell? [Was: Re: Control center and capplet merging]
On Wed, Jul 06, 2005 at 03:31:58PM -0400, Havoc Pennington wrote: On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 19:37 +0200, Carlos Garnacho wrote: Some may think that it could encourage people to add more capplets, but that's already happening, in the last 2 releases we've added Multimedia systems selector, Remote desktop and Removable drives and media, so we should at least find a way for not punishing users because we don't follow our own rules :) Right or we could just fix the problem - wait that would be INSANE ;-) If we can't get rid of at least Multimedia systems selector we sure do suck. You could porbably put multimedia systems selector stuff as gconf keys and enable it there. The problem is that this stuff becomes buried and for people who want to change it for whatever purpose it becomes an egg hunt. In these cases, it would be good to be able to find a way to get access without too much trouble like a troubleshooter system that tells you where to go if the default multimedia stuff doesn't work. Taking a view of an undirected graph, all pieces of information should connected. My two cents. sri ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: switching to g-c-c shell? [Was: Re: Control center and capplet merging]
On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 14:15 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: In these cases, it would be good to be able to find a way to get access without too much trouble like a troubleshooter system that tells you where to go if the default multimedia stuff doesn't work. I don't want to be too sarcastic ;-) but if we can write a wizard to fix it, why don't we just fix it to begin with without the user clicking next a few times? I'm sure there are a million excuses for this control panel but they are all excuses in my book. We can and should do better (especially the full distributions such as Fedora and Ubuntu who could fix the whole stack). All three words in this menuitem are technobabble and the dialog itself is full of technobabble; plus in most cases changing anything in the dialog is going to break your system. I do see the value in configuring a custom default video sink though. Let me go do that now. Not. Havoc ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: switching to g-c-c shell? [Was: Re: Control center and capplet merging]
--- Havoc Pennington [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 19:37 +0200, Carlos Garnacho wrote: Some may think that it could encourage people to add more capplets, but that's already happening, in the last 2 releases we've added Multimedia systems selector, Remote desktop and Removable drives and media, so we should at least find a way for not punishing users because we don't follow our own rules :) Right or we could just fix the problem - wait that would be INSANE ;-) just feels better quoted in that piece of sarcasm, even if we do an enviable work and reduce the number of capplets without moving them from the menu, we will have still a growing blob of uncategorized settings (at least, I think that the tendence to grow is quite noticeable, and even more if we mix at some point g-c-c and g-s-t) I really think that, while the PreferencesRevisited page in l.g.o has pretty good ideas, we still should try to show a categorized view of all preferences, instead of letting users try their luck in the menu (what does Session beside Sound? Why there's a separate sublevel for accessibility? ... ;) So, said this, IMHO fixing one problem is not an excuse to leave the other unfixed If we can't get rid of at least Multimedia systems selector we sure do suck. :) Regards Havoc __ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, más seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
