Re: [Desktop-packages] [Bug 761558] Re: Default to enabling IPv6 addresses, but set to optional to bring up devices
Hi Mathieu, On dual-stack networks, which remains the norm rather than ipv6-only so far, The norm so far is without question IPv4-only, which outnumbers anything including IPv6 by an enormous amount. According to Google, IPv4-only is the case for about 99.5% of users world-wide (see http://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics/), and my own data for Norway puts the number at about 99.75% (see http://fud.no/ipv6). having IPv4 optional will mean the connection may still be brought up with just IPv6. Of course. However, with IPv4 required in the exact same situation, the connection will not be brought up *at all*. That is certainly worse than having to make do with only IPv6. Using IPv6, you'll at least be able to go to Google and try to figure out how to troubleshoot the problem. That said, having just IPv6 on a network is also a completely valid configuration, and when combined with technologies such as NAT64, it does not mean that you lose access to all the IPv4-only content and services on the internet either. I would like to look into converting our corporate WLANs to such a configuration, actually; we are running low on IPv4 addresses, and the IPv4 addresses that are currently used on the WLAN would be much better spent in one of our data centres. However, since we have the Bring Your Own Device philosophy where people manage their own laptops (and Ubuntu is very popular OS choice), decommisioning IPv4 is out of the question until this actually works out of the box with IPv6 only for most people. Then people will wonder what is going on and file bugs here. Well, considering that http://bugs.launchpad.net is only available over IPv4, that is a technical impossibility. ;-) Seriously though, I believe that worry about misdirected bug reports is entirely unfounded. For the sake of the argument, the potential confused bug reporters need to match all of these criteria: 1) Have a dual-stacked networks - 0,5% of users world-wide [Google]. 2) Have a failure on their network that manifests itself in such a way that DHCPv4 doesn't work while SLAAC/DHCPv6 does to work. Let's say that is the case for 1% of networks. 3) Must mis-diagnose the problem and assign the blame to NetworkManager. Let's say 10% of users? 4) Must actually bother to submit a bug report. 25%? Result of the above: 0.000125% of all users...of course, that's very hypothetical, but I'm convinced that the real number is indeed a tiny fraction of a percent. Again it's worth noting that Microsoft Windows, Apple Mac OS X, and Apple iOS (which I forgot to mention in my previous message), *all* consider IPv4 optional. I believe it's relatively safe to assume that the Microsoft and Apple users are, on average, less technical than Ubuntu users, and would therefore be even more likely to misdiagnose the IPv6-is-working-while-IPv4-doesn't problem and wrongly assign the blame to the operating system. Yet, neither Microsoft nor Apple appear to have any second thoughts about their IPv4-is-optional default behaviour. The bottom line is: if Microsoft and Apple can make IPv4 optional, then Ubuntu should not be worried about doing so either. However, if I've failed to convince you yet that this simply isn't going to be a problem, and you are still worried about being flooded with misdirected bug reports as a result of making IPv4 optional, I am quite willing to join the Ubuntu Bug Squad in order to triage all such bugs filed on NetworkManager. That way you can be absolutely certain that you won't have to deal with any of those false bug reports you're worried about. BTW: I'm willing to bet that you've received way more messages from me in this very bug report than you'll ever get from these confused users... ;-) We'll revisit setting IPv4 to optional after the Precise release. I've seen you say pretty much exactly that before... :-( «We're already planning on changing these defaults for Oneiric. However, they won't be changed for Natty because it's already quite late in the cycle to do so» From https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager-applet/+bug/761558/comments/2 Best regards, -- Tore Anderson -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Desktop Packages, which is subscribed to network-manager in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/761558 Title: Default to enabling IPv6 addresses, but set to optional to bring up devices Status in “network-manager” package in Ubuntu: Fix Released Status in “network-manager-applet” package in Ubuntu: Fix Released Bug description: Binary package hint: network-manager Ubuntu 11.04 Beta 2 does not support IPv6 networks out of the box. It really should. (Microsoft Windows have had this support since Vista.) The remaining IPv4 addresses are depleting fast - as of yesterday, there are no more IPv4 addresses to be had in the Asia-Pacific region, a situation which soon will happen in Europe and North America too - likely before the end of the
Re: [Desktop-packages] [Bug 761558] Re: Default to enabling IPv6 addresses, but set to optional to bring up devices
* Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre That's an option that can be changed by the user, so irrelevant to supporting IPv6 networks out of the box. «Plug and Play» is important for most users. I don't think there are enough IPv6-only networks to warrant shipping IPv4 as optional by default just yet, to me that's likely to cause far more pain for the time being. If there's no IPv6 on the network, as is the case for 99%+ of networks today, IPv4 *won't* be made optional by such a change. Either IPv4 or IPv6 must succeed even if neither is marked as required, and if there's no IPv6 on the network, the succeeding protocol pretty much has to be IPv4. Also, for what it's worth, Microsoft Windows (since Vista, 2006) and Apple Mac OS X (since Lion, 2011) supports IPv6-only networks in their default configuration. With that in mind, it is hard for me to understand what that «far more pain» concern you have is all about. Could you be more specific? Best regards, -- Tore Anderson -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Desktop Packages, which is subscribed to network-manager in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/761558 Title: Default to enabling IPv6 addresses, but set to optional to bring up devices Status in “network-manager” package in Ubuntu: Fix Released Status in “network-manager-applet” package in Ubuntu: Fix Released Bug description: Binary package hint: network-manager Ubuntu 11.04 Beta 2 does not support IPv6 networks out of the box. It really should. (Microsoft Windows have had this support since Vista.) The remaining IPv4 addresses are depleting fast - as of yesterday, there are no more IPv4 addresses to be had in the Asia-Pacific region, a situation which soon will happen in Europe and North America too - likely before the end of the year. It is therefore urgent that IPv6 networks are supported out of the box - average end users cannot be expected to jump through hoops in order to get a working network connection. Fortunately, all the necessary support is found in the NetworkManager source code - it is just a matter of changing the defaults so that both IPv4 and IPv6 networks are supported equally well, as well as hybrid IPv4+IPv6 dual-stack networks. These are the defaults that need to change in the standard connection profile: Require IPv4 addressing for this connection to complete: OFF IPv6 Method: Automatic Require IPv6 addressing for this connection to complete: OFF I've attached a log from when I first activated a connection to a IPv6 wireless network (which failed), and then another attempt after having modified these settings (which succeeded). Tore To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/761558/+subscriptions -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~desktop-packages Post to : desktop-packages@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~desktop-packages More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Desktop-packages] [Bug 761558] Re: Default to enabling IPv6 addresses, but set to optional to bring up devices
I finally could verify/reproduce the issues you were seeing with connections initially never start DHCPv6 even if they are showing Auto for the method -- there is another part of network-manager which uses the assumption that a missing method (e.g. for a new device connection, which typically doesn't necessarily have an associated file on the filesystem) means Ignore, which is obviously false at this point. I think patch is what you need (maybe the last chunk only): http://mail.gnome.org/archives/networkmanager- list/2011-August/msg00063.html I also noted that there is such a check in nm-applet which would write Ignore and then include the assigned IPv6 addresses if the above is fixed, so now we have two separate tasks for network-manager and network-manager-applet. I'm working on both, and they should be fixed shortly. Ok, thanks! I haven't looked into the GUI stuff at all. As for your crash, please try to reproduce it with apport enabled. You should see a file in /var/crash about this crash; we'd need this opened as a separate bug in order to be able to debug what is causing it. This is just so we can track each issue separately and know what is fixed and what isn't. I'll do my best, but I can't promise you I find the time before next week, I'm going away from Friday, and I've got a really busy schedule today and tomorrow. Best regards, -- Tore Anderson -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Desktop Packages, which is subscribed to network-manager in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/761558 Title: Default to enabling IPv6 addresses, but set to optional to bring up devices Status in “network-manager” package in Ubuntu: Triaged Status in “network-manager-applet” package in Ubuntu: Triaged Bug description: Binary package hint: network-manager Ubuntu 11.04 Beta 2 does not support IPv6 networks out of the box. It really should. (Microsoft Windows have had this support since Vista.) The remaining IPv4 addresses are depleting fast - as of yesterday, there are no more IPv4 addresses to be had in the Asia-Pacific region, a situation which soon will happen in Europe and North America too - likely before the end of the year. It is therefore urgent that IPv6 networks are supported out of the box - average end users cannot be expected to jump through hoops in order to get a working network connection. Fortunately, all the necessary support is found in the NetworkManager source code - it is just a matter of changing the defaults so that both IPv4 and IPv6 networks are supported equally well, as well as hybrid IPv4+IPv6 dual-stack networks. These are the defaults that need to change in the standard connection profile: Require IPv4 addressing for this connection to complete: OFF IPv6 Method: Automatic Require IPv6 addressing for this connection to complete: OFF I've attached a log from when I first activated a connection to a IPv6 wireless network (which failed), and then another attempt after having modified these settings (which succeeded). Tore To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/761558/+subscriptions -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~desktop-packages Post to : desktop-packages@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~desktop-packages More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
