Re: Keeping PMC communications public when possible -- is pmcs@ responsible?
On 14 September 2018 at 12:21, Rich Bowen wrote: > You are definitely not wrong. Two observations I'd make: > > 1) We should avoid sending anything to the pmc lists that isn't actually > private, as you say. And the pmc members are all (probably? Should be?) > also on the dev list. > > 2) if one uses an alias that forwards to multiple other lists, always > explain in the message why they're getting it. Like "you are receiving this > because you're subscribed to an Apache dev mailing list". This seems to > reduce the angry responses considerably. > > Since your earlier note I have consciously avoided using the pmc lists and > used dev lists instead. > > I'm not personally a fan of remaining lists but I can't say I strongly renaming? > object to it either. Just one more thing to relearn. It should be possible to replace pmcs@ with an auto responder giving the new alias names, and what they should be used for. So there would be no need to remember the new alias. Unfortunately not all PMCs have dev@ lists, but it should not be too difficult to allow for this. There is also ppmcs@, which is private@podlings. This should be treated the same as pmcs@ > > > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 07:07 Julian Foad wrote: > >> TL;DR: Is the "pmcs@" alias the root of the problem? Need "pmcs-private@" >> and "pmcs-public@"? >> >> Rich Bowen wrote: >> > I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've never sent an email >> > message to all of the Apache dev lists. >> > [It] *always* results in at least one angry response, and usually a lot >> of them. >> >> You're right -- I haven't. If that happens, it sounds like the work on >> Community Development is not yet finished, sadly. Anger distresses me even >> when I know it's not really personal, so I would find that concerning. But >> that's a digression, not the end of the matter. >> >> And I have some more insights now. >> >> Another non-private email recently came to private@, and the originator >> referred to sending email "to the PMCs". >> I don't know but suspect that they emailed the "pmcs@" alias in order to >> email "the PMCs". That sounds like a recipe for confusion. >> >> I discovered that in 2005 a resolution [3] was passed to rename all the >> mailing lists formerly called "p...@project.apache.org" (which were >> already private) to "priv...@project.apache.org" and to use these only >> for strictly private matters. This resolution is incorporated in the PMC >> Required Policies [2] and referred to in [1]. >> >> However, the "pmcs@" alias escaped the renaming and now points to all the >> "private@" lists. It should therefore only be used for strictly private >> matters, which is not suggested by its name. People aren't easily going to >> learn that. It seems to me it would be a good idea to rename that alias to >> something like "pmcs-private@" and remove "pmcs@". >> >> For matters which we wish to address to PMCs but need not be private, we >> should have some other alias: "pmcs-public@"? This should point to each >> project's most appropriate public mailing list. This would be "dev@" for >> Apache Subversion and probably for most projects, while any project could >> potentially use a public list that is separate from their dev list if they >> wished (although I vaguely recall recommendations to keep both kinds of >> discussions together for the sake of community over code). >> >> Although this is a fairly infrequent and individually small matter, it >> appears to be causing unintended contraventions of the ASF policies and I >> feel it contributes negatively to the Way by habituating people to >> discussing matters in private. >> >> Thoughts, anyone? Is this something we could improve, perhaps quite easily? >> >> >> [1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#confidential >> [2] https://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#mailing-list-private >> [3] >> https://whimsy.apache.org/board/minutes/Rename_pmc_lists_to_private.html >> >> -- >> - Julian >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org >> >> - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
Re: Keeping PMC communications public when possible -- is pmcs@ responsible?
You are definitely not wrong. Two observations I'd make: 1) We should avoid sending anything to the pmc lists that isn't actually private, as you say. And the pmc members are all (probably? Should be?) also on the dev list. 2) if one uses an alias that forwards to multiple other lists, always explain in the message why they're getting it. Like "you are receiving this because you're subscribed to an Apache dev mailing list". This seems to reduce the angry responses considerably. Since your earlier note I have consciously avoided using the pmc lists and used dev lists instead. I'm not personally a fan of remaining lists but I can't say I strongly object to it either. Just one more thing to relearn. On Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 07:07 Julian Foad wrote: > TL;DR: Is the "pmcs@" alias the root of the problem? Need "pmcs-private@" > and "pmcs-public@"? > > Rich Bowen wrote: > > I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've never sent an email > > message to all of the Apache dev lists. > > [It] *always* results in at least one angry response, and usually a lot > of them. > > You're right -- I haven't. If that happens, it sounds like the work on > Community Development is not yet finished, sadly. Anger distresses me even > when I know it's not really personal, so I would find that concerning. But > that's a digression, not the end of the matter. > > And I have some more insights now. > > Another non-private email recently came to private@, and the originator > referred to sending email "to the PMCs". > I don't know but suspect that they emailed the "pmcs@" alias in order to > email "the PMCs". That sounds like a recipe for confusion. > > I discovered that in 2005 a resolution [3] was passed to rename all the > mailing lists formerly called "p...@project.apache.org" (which were > already private) to "priv...@project.apache.org" and to use these only > for strictly private matters. This resolution is incorporated in the PMC > Required Policies [2] and referred to in [1]. > > However, the "pmcs@" alias escaped the renaming and now points to all the > "private@" lists. It should therefore only be used for strictly private > matters, which is not suggested by its name. People aren't easily going to > learn that. It seems to me it would be a good idea to rename that alias to > something like "pmcs-private@" and remove "pmcs@". > > For matters which we wish to address to PMCs but need not be private, we > should have some other alias: "pmcs-public@"? This should point to each > project's most appropriate public mailing list. This would be "dev@" for > Apache Subversion and probably for most projects, while any project could > potentially use a public list that is separate from their dev list if they > wished (although I vaguely recall recommendations to keep both kinds of > discussions together for the sake of community over code). > > Although this is a fairly infrequent and individually small matter, it > appears to be causing unintended contraventions of the ASF policies and I > feel it contributes negatively to the Way by habituating people to > discussing matters in private. > > Thoughts, anyone? Is this something we could improve, perhaps quite easily? > > > [1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#confidential > [2] https://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#mailing-list-private > [3] > https://whimsy.apache.org/board/minutes/Rename_pmc_lists_to_private.html > > -- > - Julian > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > >
Re: Keeping PMC communications public when possible -- is pmcs@ responsible?
TL;DR: Is the "pmcs@" alias the root of the problem? Need "pmcs-private@" and "pmcs-public@"? Rich Bowen wrote: > I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've never sent an email > message to all of the Apache dev lists. > [It] *always* results in at least one angry response, and usually a lot of > them. You're right -- I haven't. If that happens, it sounds like the work on Community Development is not yet finished, sadly. Anger distresses me even when I know it's not really personal, so I would find that concerning. But that's a digression, not the end of the matter. And I have some more insights now. Another non-private email recently came to private@, and the originator referred to sending email "to the PMCs". I don't know but suspect that they emailed the "pmcs@" alias in order to email "the PMCs". That sounds like a recipe for confusion. I discovered that in 2005 a resolution [3] was passed to rename all the mailing lists formerly called "p...@project.apache.org" (which were already private) to "priv...@project.apache.org" and to use these only for strictly private matters. This resolution is incorporated in the PMC Required Policies [2] and referred to in [1]. However, the "pmcs@" alias escaped the renaming and now points to all the "private@" lists. It should therefore only be used for strictly private matters, which is not suggested by its name. People aren't easily going to learn that. It seems to me it would be a good idea to rename that alias to something like "pmcs-private@" and remove "pmcs@". For matters which we wish to address to PMCs but need not be private, we should have some other alias: "pmcs-public@"? This should point to each project's most appropriate public mailing list. This would be "dev@" for Apache Subversion and probably for most projects, while any project could potentially use a public list that is separate from their dev list if they wished (although I vaguely recall recommendations to keep both kinds of discussions together for the sake of community over code). Although this is a fairly infrequent and individually small matter, it appears to be causing unintended contraventions of the ASF policies and I feel it contributes negatively to the Way by habituating people to discussing matters in private. Thoughts, anyone? Is this something we could improve, perhaps quite easily? [1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#confidential [2] https://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#mailing-list-private [3] https://whimsy.apache.org/board/minutes/Rename_pmc_lists_to_private.html -- - Julian - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
