Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
On 1/15/15, 9:46 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: Where are you seeing discouragement of pilot projects? In the tone and content of the responses on this thread, including this one where it feels to me you are again using the maintenance and training costs to make it seem highly unlikely that any pilot program would ever be accepted. I understand we are using money from donors and have to be somewhat conservative, but I don’t know if it really serves the mission of the ASF to be one of the more conservative customers our projects will encounter. IMO, it would be much more encouraging to say “I don’t know much about OFBiz but if you can find volunteers to put together a pilot program and show us that it is easy to learn and use and will save us time and money, we’ll give you an Azure VM to get started.” How easy something is to learn is often biased by whether that person is incentivized to learn or not. -Alex
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
On 1/15/15, 6:35 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote: ...*historically*, when this kind of thing has happened (project implements, thing becomes critical), gradually it becomes the responsibility of Infra, not of the project, to do ongoing maintenance Yes, this is why I'm reluctant to encourage any initiative that requires our infrastructure team to support new tools. And I suspect infra shares that reluctance ;-) That being said, it's always a question of benefits vs. costs - but if a simple thing using technologies that every web developer is supposed to know works the choice is a no-brainer for me. IMO, that reluctance is the challenge faced by any ASF project that isn’t yet on the list of what everyone is “supposed to know”. AIUI, Infra is also staffed by volunteers so project folks can volunteer to be Infra for their project’s usage at the ASF. And if it isn’t “easy” for non-project Infra folks to grok how the project’s technology works, that is just another challenge for the project. One would suspect that they’ll face the same battle acquiring new customers anyway. I’d guess that most ASF projects are not yet a standard and want to be the new standard. Getting that first testimonial is often key to becoming the new standard. It seems wrong for the ASF to discourage establishment of pilot implementations until the project establishes a track record on some other set of customers. IMO, the ability to get an Azure VM is game changing in this regard. The project’s committers can take full responsibility for the pilot program. All Infra might need to do is establish one-way or two-way database or file mirrors so the pilot can’t mess up what works until it is deemed ready. I’d bet that most of a project’s customers would do that anyway. Infra should be encouraged to learn new things if the ROI is established by the pilot program and includes the cost of training non-project Infra folks, and those folks should ask for support like any other customer on that project’s list, and if they don’t get timely and helpful support, reject the product just like any other customer would. In summary, the ASF should be a slightly more willing customer for any of its projects. Azure VM’s seem to provide a way to do that without adding more load to Infra. -Alex
RE: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Where are you seeing discouragement of pilot projects? Any volunteer can step up and deliver any pilot for the foundation on a voluntary basis. We are set up to do that. However, if a service stood up by a volunteer becomes a core part of the ASF then that must be maintained in an ongoing basis. This has budget and resource constraints. Yes we have volunteers, but we don't give volunteers pagers, we have a paid team of contractors who take that kind of responsibility. We can't tell volunteers what to do with their time and we expect our contractors to make decisions that mean they can deliver on our expectations as expressed by VP Infra. It would be wrong of the foundation to say sure go implement that wonderful sounding solution without also saying but be aware there is no guarantee that the foundation would actually use it. I'm pretty sure any volunteer would feel abused by such an approach. Nobody has said to Daniel go get infra backing because his proposal does not change current core processes (it pulls data from those processes but does not write to that data). Furthermore the results of his work, while beneficial to the foundation, are not core to the foundation. If projects.apache.org were down it would be an inconvenience. Waiting for a volunteer to fix it would not be a concern. However, if the system we use for creating and managing core data (as per the OfBiz proposal) were down it would be a significant problem and we would not want to wait for volunteers. Because of this the foundation would look to VP Infra to provide an SLA for that service and VP Infra would say fine, but for that SLA it will cost $x. In a perfect world VP Infra will be able to mobilize volunteers and would not draw on that budget line, but we have to plan for the circumstances in which volunteers are not able to react in a timely way. Add to this that historically we know that volunteers often disappear (as is their right). In short, the foundation cannot rely on volunteers for core services. What we can, and should, do is rely on volunteers to reduce the costs of those core services. With 170+ projects to consider it's arguably the responsibility of those volunteers to actively seek out ways in which they can help reduce those costs (this is one of my own criteria for member candidates). Pierre, for his part, is now following up with the appropriate people (thanks Pierre). Ross -Original Message- From: Alex Harui [mailto:aha...@adobe.com] Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 9:22 AM To: dev Subject: Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal On 1/15/15, 6:35 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote: ...*historically*, when this kind of thing has happened (project implements, thing becomes critical), gradually it becomes the responsibility of Infra, not of the project, to do ongoing maintenance Yes, this is why I'm reluctant to encourage any initiative that requires our infrastructure team to support new tools. And I suspect infra shares that reluctance ;-) That being said, it's always a question of benefits vs. costs - but if a simple thing using technologies that every web developer is supposed to know works the choice is a no-brainer for me. IMO, that reluctance is the challenge faced by any ASF project that isn’t yet on the list of what everyone is “supposed to know”. AIUI, Infra is also staffed by volunteers so project folks can volunteer to be Infra for their project’s usage at the ASF. And if it isn’t “easy” for non-project Infra folks to grok how the project’s technology works, that is just another challenge for the project. One would suspect that they’ll face the same battle acquiring new customers anyway. I’d guess that most ASF projects are not yet a standard and want to be the new standard. Getting that first testimonial is often key to becoming the new standard. It seems wrong for the ASF to discourage establishment of pilot implementations until the project establishes a track record on some other set of customers. IMO, the ability to get an Azure VM is game changing in this regard. The project’s committers can take full responsibility for the pilot program. All Infra might need to do is establish one-way or two-way database or file mirrors so the pilot can’t mess up what works until it is deemed ready. I’d bet that most of a project’s customers would do that anyway. Infra should be encouraged to learn new things if the ROI is established by the pilot program and includes the cost of training non-project Infra folks, and those folks should ask for support like any other customer on that project’s list, and if they don’t get timely and helpful support, reject the product just like any other customer would. In summary, the ASF should be a slightly more willing customer for any of its projects. Azure VM’s seem to provide a way to do
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Alex Harui aha...@adobe.com wrote: ...Infra should be encouraged to learn new things if the ROI is established by the pilot program... Of course, but when you have to maintain systems for years the investment is huge...so the return has to be huge as well. -Bertrand
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
To put that last sentence in a more positive manner: The future looks bright and is multi-coloured! But it is shrouded in layers of mists. Unfortunately, so is the future influx of funds. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Pierre Smits pierre.sm...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe we should considering changing the subject as this seems bigger than just an overhaul of one of the front ends of the ASF? Yes, it all has to do with the ROI (the benefits at large vs the costs) for the ASF. And such need to be determined regarding the future, not the present day or the past. The time that the ASF was a one project endeavour has past, and the importance of the foundation in the umfeld is growing day by day. People are turning more and more to the ASF with requests to host their open source projects. This all leads to more demand on solutions and services provided by INFRA. But also on our offices. More people/projects involved means more work on the heads in Brand Management, Legal, Communications, Secretary, etc. And these offices also use solutions/services of INFRA and/or third parties. Thus, any decision of this kind is should be taken must be weighed with the future - the 5 year view - of the ASF and its offices in mind. So, what are the future demands on our offices? And how does that impact the solutions and services rendered by INFRA, and/or third parties? To what budget requirements will the availability of those (future) solutions and services lead, with the use of current setup? Can costs be saved by rethinking that setup and replacing it by something else, and do the projected savings outweigh the projected cost of change? Such questions must be considered regularly, because there is no guarantee that current influx of funds will be the same or even increase equally with the increase of needs/wants and pleasures of offices and projects and inherently the cost associated to all that. And then we can make the proper decisions. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote: ...*historically*, when this kind of thing has happened (project implements, thing becomes critical), gradually it becomes the responsibility of Infra, not of the project, to do ongoing maintenance Yes, this is why I'm reluctant to encourage any initiative that requires our infrastructure team to support new tools. And I suspect infra shares that reluctance ;-) That being said, it's always a question of benefits vs. costs - but if a simple thing using technologies that every web developer is supposed to know works the choice is a no-brainer for me. -Bertrand
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Maybe we should considering changing the subject as this seems bigger than just an overhaul of one of the front ends of the ASF? Yes, it all has to do with the ROI (the benefits at large vs the costs) for the ASF. And such need to be determined regarding the future, not the present day or the past. The time that the ASF was a one project endeavour has past, and the importance of the foundation in the umfeld is growing day by day. People are turning more and more to the ASF with requests to host their open source projects. This all leads to more demand on solutions and services provided by INFRA. But also on our offices. More people/projects involved means more work on the heads in Brand Management, Legal, Communications, Secretary, etc. And these offices also use solutions/services of INFRA and/or third parties. Thus, any decision of this kind is should be taken must be weighed with the future - the 5 year view - of the ASF and its offices in mind. So, what are the future demands on our offices? And how does that impact the solutions and services rendered by INFRA, and/or third parties? To what budget requirements will the availability of those (future) solutions and services lead, with the use of current setup? Can costs be saved by rethinking that setup and replacing it by something else, and do the projected savings outweigh the projected cost of change? Such questions must be considered regularly, because there is no guarantee that current influx of funds will be the same or even increase equally with the increase of needs/wants and pleasures of offices and projects and inherently the cost associated to all that. And then we can make the proper decisions. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote: ...*historically*, when this kind of thing has happened (project implements, thing becomes critical), gradually it becomes the responsibility of Infra, not of the project, to do ongoing maintenance Yes, this is why I'm reluctant to encourage any initiative that requires our infrastructure team to support new tools. And I suspect infra shares that reluctance ;-) That being said, it's always a question of benefits vs. costs - but if a simple thing using technologies that every web developer is supposed to know works the choice is a no-brainer for me. -Bertrand
New ComDev VM (was: Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal)
Hiya folks, as part of trying out the new projects site, I have set up a VM inside our infrastructure for us to use. the VM is called projects-vm.apache.org and is tied to LDAP much like people.apache.org is these days, thus you will need to have your public ssh key in your LDAP profile in order to gain access. If you do have that set up, and would like to access to the machine (some of you already have access, others don't), just send me a line and I'll open up access for you. The projects VM is set up to serve content via httpd, but only to the TLS-terminator nyx-ssl.apache.org (thus you will get a 403 Denied if you visit the VM's web site directly). To get to the test site, use https://projects-new.apache.org/ . Similar, to try out the (very simple) editing features, use https://projects-new.apache.org/edit/ (requires your LDAP username+password and allows you to edit data for those projects where you are on the PMC). If you try out the editing features, do not that every edit you do will generate an email with the new project data and send it to dev@community.a.o, as a review measure. I hope this will make it easier for people to jump in and help with creating the site :) With regards, Daniel. On 2015-01-14 18:53, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote: Daniel, There is no assuming just do it :-) You have a number of ComDev PMC members saying +1, and you are a PMC member yourself. Let's have the code where we can start working on it and let's get it to feature parity with projects.apache.org ASAP. I agree with Rich that there is value in this already. This is not to exclude the much broader OfBiz proposal, but it looks to me like this solution is close to being ready to go as a replacement for projects.apache.org and I already see some simple improvements I can make in a coffee break at work :-) Ross -Original Message- From: Daniel Gruno [mailto:humbed...@apache.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:43 AM To: dev@community.apache.org Subject: Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal On 2015-01-14 18:37, Jacques Le Roux wrote: Just as a note for the sake of truth, OFBiz has Content component http://projects.apache.pw/projects.html?category#content http://ofbiz.apache.org/doap_OFBiz.rdf disagrees ;-) but, assuming this gets accepted into comdev, you needn't worry about doap files any longer, as you will be able to edit it online instead. With regards, Daniel. I very like what I saw, kudos! Jacques Le 14/01/2015 12:48, Daniel Gruno a écrit : Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. With regards, Daniel.
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
See inline. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 12:42 AM, Alex Harui aha...@adobe.com wrote: I was probing the notion that it might be to the advantage of the OFBiz community to just volunteer something instead of being asked. To the best of my knowledge, the persons in the OFBiz community are volunteering. Maybe the folks on this list know the other Apache projects better than I do, but I wouldn’t even know what to ask for. Asking the first thing that comes to your mind will get you answers. Might not be the right ones, though. ;-) The project I’m involved in, Apache Flex, might also have the technology to improve a lot of things at the ASF. Once the code I’m working on gets to a certain point, if I need more customers and want to test out the “eat your own dog food” principle, I may start offering replacements to some of the web experiences we have at the ASF. I tend to agree. But you have the operators wrong. You are talking about yourself testing the 'eat your own dogfood' principle. That is different to 'having someone else eat/test your dogfood'. That means you have to solicit the willingness of others. And when there is no willingness offered and you keep trying to push it down the throat of the other, the result you get is not something you want. In the case of the works of an ASF project for the ASF (the other), you'll need - beside the willingness of the other - assistance/support from the third party (INFRA, or someone else) regarding the provisioning of hardware, etc . Unless you have unlimited resources yourself in that area. Here in The Netherlands we have this saying 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'. I surmise, we can all recant the stories of the good intentions abandoned and the effort these required to clean up the left overs. How that eats into the areas with constraints (money, time, etc). So it is better to investigate the potential success rate before endorsing the resources you have control over. If I can run a live PoC, it will make it much easier to sell and focus the conversation and maybe even garner more contributors. And even if the ASF rejects it, I will have learned something in the process. For sure, I will meter the effort I put into it accordingly so it isn’t a huge deal if it doesn’t get adopted. Apart from the exchange of theoretical deliberations in this thread, there are connections established between offices of the ASF and (a) third party(ies) providing OFBiz services regarding exploration whether OFBiz can be utilised with respect to some of the processes of those offices. And OFBiz volunteers have offered their assistance.
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
On 01/14/2015 06:42 PM, Alex Harui wrote: I was probing the notion that it might be to the advantage of the OFBiz community to just volunteer something instead of being asked. Maybe the folks on this list know the other Apache projects better than I do, but I wouldn’t even know what to ask for. Yep. This. I've done some reading about OFBiz, but having never actually used it, I wouldn't know where to start. The other consideration is that once we had a mature thing based on OFBiz, and once it became a critical service for the ASF, Infra would be called upon to support it. This would require funding, expertise, and time. Those can come from a variety of places, such as from the OFBiz community, but *historically*, when this kind of thing has happened (project implements, thing becomes critical), gradually it becomes the responsibility of Infra, not of the project, to do ongoing maintenance. Hence the need for a 5 year view rather than a let's get this feature working view. Why is this different from what Daniel has done? Because this is a nice to have, rather than a critical service. (Although that's a dangerous thing to say, because something like this could easily *become* a critical service.) --Rich The project I’m involved in, Apache Flex, might also have the technology to improve a lot of things at the ASF. Once the code I’m working on gets to a certain point, if I need more customers and want to test out the “eat your own dog food” principle, I may start offering replacements to some of the web experiences we have at the ASF. If I can run a live PoC, it will make it much easier to sell and focus the conversation and maybe even garner more contributors. And even if the ASF rejects it, I will have learned something in the process. For sure, I will meter the effort I put into it accordingly so it isn’t a huge deal if it doesn’t get adopted. -Alex On 1/14/15, 2:09 PM, Pierre Smits pierre.sm...@gmail.com wrote: Like some have expressed in earlier messages in this thread this endeavour could take up some time. Especially when requirements are not clear. And let's not forget, the OFBiz community volunteers their effort to get to a better OFBiz product. They have the tools in place for that. If the ASF wants something on top of that from the OFBIz community it needs to be asked there (their mailing lists). Not here. Even if it is assistance with prototyping a Proof of Concept. Apart from that, as the building blocks of OFBiz don't use exotic constructs (it is java, xml, ftl, groovy, when talking languages) I surmise an ASF Azure box can suffice. If concessions regarding data storage are acceptable (integrated derby in stead of external RDBMS) for such a PoC.. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 10:30 PM, Alex Harui aha...@adobe.com wrote: I’m way outside my area of knowledge, but is there anything stopping the OFBiz community from getting an ASF Azure box and trying to prototype something? -Alex On 1/14/15, 10:46 AM, Pierre Smits pierre.sm...@gmail.com wrote: You are correct. And I am aware that budgets are limitied. But I don't what the budget will be nor decide where the money of the ASF flows. I can only ask for some of it regarding a project. And even then, I won't consider doing so for something that could be perceived as a pet project of Pierre Smits. If ASF offices do want an OFBiz implementation to work with, maybe they should go ahead and involve both INFRA and the OFBiz community. I understand the concerns. I myself have them as well when dealing with volunteer organisations. But - and apparently - the ASF has this solved regarding the INFRA office. The same could be worked out for the other solutions and/or services it needs to have in place. You just need to ask the right questions to the right people. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:34 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: Maintaining servers costs money. Money has to come from somewhere and has to be budgeted. We can't just drop a new demand on infra without discussing it with them and ensuring they have the capacity. In terms of maintenance of the result Im thinking who makes the changes we need as requirements change over time? Somebody needs to be responsible for that and we need to be sure it is sustainable. The easier it is to maintain the easier it is to find someone willing to do it. As for my suggestion for OfBiz to be applied to operational area of the foundation I said currently unstructured that is the information is in ad-hoc spreadsheets and mailing lists. OfBiz is, as far as I'm aware, designed for
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote: ...*historically*, when this kind of thing has happened (project implements, thing becomes critical), gradually it becomes the responsibility of Infra, not of the project, to do ongoing maintenance Yes, this is why I'm reluctant to encourage any initiative that requires our infrastructure team to support new tools. And I suspect infra shares that reluctance ;-) That being said, it's always a question of benefits vs. costs - but if a simple thing using technologies that every web developer is supposed to know works the choice is a no-brainer for me. -Bertrand
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
I think it is a good idea to replace the current projects.a.o build system because it is extremely complicated currently. It even has its own build system partly based on XML,and the build tools are spread over at least two parts of SVN. The build requires Perl, XSLT and I think there's now some Python as well. However there may be some issues with the conversion. I mention a few below, not to kill off the idea but to make sure the issues are covered. The existing build files have a few special cases built in - e.g. to ensure that project names are treated sensibly. It may take a while to determine which of these need to be retained. DOAP files may have usage outside the ASF. So dropping them entirely may not be possible. When I suggested moving the Commons DOAPs to a common directory (they are currently in the individual component trunks) I got a lot of opposition, because people wanted the DOAP in the same place as the code. I think the idea was that it made it easier to remember to update them when doing new releases. Also note that not all projects have DOAPs yet. From time to time I chase up projects that have not produced one, but progress can be very slow. That may prove simpler with a new online form. It reduces people's choices as to where to store the data. The other aspect that is often forgotten is user documentation. The existing docs are not wonderful, but I think it is possible to work out how to create and submit a new DOAP with careful reading. If the new system is to be successful long-term, I think it's vital that it is clearly documented from the start. On 14 January 2015 at 18:31, Jacques Le Roux jacques.le.r...@les7arts.com wrote: Yes, it's great to have 3 OFBiz demos available, we (me on behalf of the OFBiz team) thank you (the infra team) for that! We could though give one back to infra or the ASF at large ;) Note: I'm not volunterring to support Pierre's idea ;) Jacques Le 14/01/2015 17:45, Daniel Gruno a écrit : Furthermore, with my infra hat on, we already have enough technical debt to deal with in the near future, we will not be supporting a new service like OFBiz for quite a while, and especially not without someone from OFBiz paying the infra tax. With regards, Daniel.
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
You are correct. And I am aware that budgets are limitied. But I don't what the budget will be nor decide where the money of the ASF flows. I can only ask for some of it regarding a project. And even then, I won't consider doing so for something that could be perceived as a pet project of Pierre Smits. If ASF offices do want an OFBiz implementation to work with, maybe they should go ahead and involve both INFRA and the OFBiz community. I understand the concerns. I myself have them as well when dealing with volunteer organisations. But - and apparently - the ASF has this solved regarding the INFRA office. The same could be worked out for the other solutions and/or services it needs to have in place. You just need to ask the right questions to the right people. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:34 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: Maintaining servers costs money. Money has to come from somewhere and has to be budgeted. We can't just drop a new demand on infra without discussing it with them and ensuring they have the capacity. In terms of maintenance of the result Im thinking who makes the changes we need as requirements change over time? Somebody needs to be responsible for that and we need to be sure it is sustainable. The easier it is to maintain the easier it is to find someone willing to do it. As for my suggestion for OfBiz to be applied to operational area of the foundation I said currently unstructured that is the information is in ad-hoc spreadsheets and mailing lists. OfBiz is, as far as I'm aware, designed for the kinds of functions I listed. Sent from my Windows Phone
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Like some have expressed in earlier messages in this thread this endeavour could take up some time. Especially when requirements are not clear. And let's not forget, the OFBiz community volunteers their effort to get to a better OFBiz product. They have the tools in place for that. If the ASF wants something on top of that from the OFBIz community it needs to be asked there (their mailing lists). Not here. Even if it is assistance with prototyping a Proof of Concept. Apart from that, as the building blocks of OFBiz don't use exotic constructs (it is java, xml, ftl, groovy, when talking languages) I surmise an ASF Azure box can suffice. If concessions regarding data storage are acceptable (integrated derby in stead of external RDBMS) for such a PoC.. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 10:30 PM, Alex Harui aha...@adobe.com wrote: I’m way outside my area of knowledge, but is there anything stopping the OFBiz community from getting an ASF Azure box and trying to prototype something? -Alex On 1/14/15, 10:46 AM, Pierre Smits pierre.sm...@gmail.com wrote: You are correct. And I am aware that budgets are limitied. But I don't what the budget will be nor decide where the money of the ASF flows. I can only ask for some of it regarding a project. And even then, I won't consider doing so for something that could be perceived as a pet project of Pierre Smits. If ASF offices do want an OFBiz implementation to work with, maybe they should go ahead and involve both INFRA and the OFBiz community. I understand the concerns. I myself have them as well when dealing with volunteer organisations. But - and apparently - the ASF has this solved regarding the INFRA office. The same could be worked out for the other solutions and/or services it needs to have in place. You just need to ask the right questions to the right people. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:34 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: Maintaining servers costs money. Money has to come from somewhere and has to be budgeted. We can't just drop a new demand on infra without discussing it with them and ensuring they have the capacity. In terms of maintenance of the result Im thinking who makes the changes we need as requirements change over time? Somebody needs to be responsible for that and we need to be sure it is sustainable. The easier it is to maintain the easier it is to find someone willing to do it. As for my suggestion for OfBiz to be applied to operational area of the foundation I said currently unstructured that is the information is in ad-hoc spreadsheets and mailing lists. OfBiz is, as far as I'm aware, designed for the kinds of functions I listed. Sent from my Windows Phone
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
I was probing the notion that it might be to the advantage of the OFBiz community to just volunteer something instead of being asked. Maybe the folks on this list know the other Apache projects better than I do, but I wouldn’t even know what to ask for. The project I’m involved in, Apache Flex, might also have the technology to improve a lot of things at the ASF. Once the code I’m working on gets to a certain point, if I need more customers and want to test out the “eat your own dog food” principle, I may start offering replacements to some of the web experiences we have at the ASF. If I can run a live PoC, it will make it much easier to sell and focus the conversation and maybe even garner more contributors. And even if the ASF rejects it, I will have learned something in the process. For sure, I will meter the effort I put into it accordingly so it isn’t a huge deal if it doesn’t get adopted. -Alex On 1/14/15, 2:09 PM, Pierre Smits pierre.sm...@gmail.com wrote: Like some have expressed in earlier messages in this thread this endeavour could take up some time. Especially when requirements are not clear. And let's not forget, the OFBiz community volunteers their effort to get to a better OFBiz product. They have the tools in place for that. If the ASF wants something on top of that from the OFBIz community it needs to be asked there (their mailing lists). Not here. Even if it is assistance with prototyping a Proof of Concept. Apart from that, as the building blocks of OFBiz don't use exotic constructs (it is java, xml, ftl, groovy, when talking languages) I surmise an ASF Azure box can suffice. If concessions regarding data storage are acceptable (integrated derby in stead of external RDBMS) for such a PoC.. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 10:30 PM, Alex Harui aha...@adobe.com wrote: I’m way outside my area of knowledge, but is there anything stopping the OFBiz community from getting an ASF Azure box and trying to prototype something? -Alex On 1/14/15, 10:46 AM, Pierre Smits pierre.sm...@gmail.com wrote: You are correct. And I am aware that budgets are limitied. But I don't what the budget will be nor decide where the money of the ASF flows. I can only ask for some of it regarding a project. And even then, I won't consider doing so for something that could be perceived as a pet project of Pierre Smits. If ASF offices do want an OFBiz implementation to work with, maybe they should go ahead and involve both INFRA and the OFBiz community. I understand the concerns. I myself have them as well when dealing with volunteer organisations. But - and apparently - the ASF has this solved regarding the INFRA office. The same could be worked out for the other solutions and/or services it needs to have in place. You just need to ask the right questions to the right people. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:34 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: Maintaining servers costs money. Money has to come from somewhere and has to be budgeted. We can't just drop a new demand on infra without discussing it with them and ensuring they have the capacity. In terms of maintenance of the result Im thinking who makes the changes we need as requirements change over time? Somebody needs to be responsible for that and we need to be sure it is sustainable. The easier it is to maintain the easier it is to find someone willing to do it. As for my suggestion for OfBiz to be applied to operational area of the foundation I said currently unstructured that is the information is in ad-hoc spreadsheets and mailing lists. OfBiz is, as far as I'm aware, designed for the kinds of functions I listed. Sent from my Windows Phone
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Indeed, an integrated approach and subsequent solution could help in delivering information in a unified way and reduce resource consumption. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Daniel Gruno humbed...@apache.org wrote: ...The site itself is 100% static HTML+JavaScript, I haven't added any arcane Lua/PHP/whatever scripts to it ;) Oh no...it's not really ASF if it doesn't have arcane stuff in it that no one can maintain after a few months ;-) Big thanks for your work Daniel, this looks cool! IIUC you're getting most or all of the data from LDAP? Getting rid of our scattered inconsistent sources of information about our projects would be fantastic. -Bertrand
RE: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Having read the while thread, to date, I find I have nothing to add other than a hearty +1 Sent from my Windows Phone From: Daniel Grunomailto:humbed...@apache.org Sent: 1/14/2015 3:48 AM To: dev@community.apache.orgmailto:dev@community.apache.org Subject: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. With regards, Daniel.
RE: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
+1 from an observer. There is much to favor in the least that can possibly work, especially since it will inspire consolidation around requirements and what folks want next without serious front-loading. Daniel's approach fits that model and delivers something that is visibly maintainable. The opportunity to gradually organize and reconcile the dataflows into something that is possibly more coherent and direct, without throwing big switches anywhere, is even more inspiration for +1. -- Dennis E. Hamilton orc...@apache.org dennis.hamil...@acm.org+1-206-779-9430 https://keybase.io/orcmid PGP F96E 89FF D456 628A X.509 certs used and requested for signed e-mail -Original Message- From: Daniel Gruno [mailto:humbed...@apache.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 06:19 To: dev@community.apache.org Subject: Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal On 2015-01-14 14:40, Rich Bowen wrote: On 01/14/2015 06:48 AM, Daniel Gruno wrote: Hi folks, [ ... ] This is really cool stuff, and answers many of the questions that I go hunting for every time I do a presentation about the ASF. I'm *sure* I'll have feature requests going forward. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. [ ... ] The site itself is 100% static HTML+JavaScript, I haven't added any arcane Lua/PHP/whatever scripts to it ;). For the import and maintenance of data such a committer names, reporting cycles and current chairs, there are 7 small python scripts that convert existing data to JSON, some of which will need to run as cron jobs. [ ... ]
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
See inline, On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:13 PM, Daniel Gruno humbed...@apache.org wrote: First off, comdev needs to officially accept the task of maintaining the site. It is currently maintained by infra, which has no interest in running it. Which internal organisation of the ASF takes ownership of the solutions delivering the information/data is debatable, and that discussion should - IMO - reside within the board. But I agree that comdev contributors can help with sharing experiences and insight so the board can make a well founded decision regarding that topic. On the subject of the thread, comdev can help with identifying requirements (functional and technical), constraints with respect to resources, and more. Secondly, I think we need to figure out which proposal we are going to run with for now, and then we can set up a JIRA ticket or three to track progress. We shouldn't turn JIRA into a discussion/voting tool when email works out really well. No need to reinvent the wheel. This is not about reinventing the wheel. More about which wheel to use. Both have advantages and disadvantages. With regards, Daniel. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com/* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
On 2015-01-14 14:40, Rich Bowen wrote: On 01/14/2015 06:48 AM, Daniel Gruno wrote: Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. This is really cool stuff, and answers many of the questions that I go hunting for every time I do a presentation about the ASF. I'm *sure* I'll have feature requests going forward. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. So, one thing you don't appear to mention ... what language is this all written in. My biggest concern with this is that it, like the first generation projects.a.o, might end up being another single-developer, single-maintainer site, and thus end up being unmaintained in short order. We want to avoid that. The site itself is 100% static HTML+JavaScript, I haven't added any arcane Lua/PHP/whatever scripts to it ;). For the import and maintenance of data such a committer names, reporting cycles and current chairs, there are 7 small python scripts that convert existing data to JSON, some of which will need to run as cron jobs. I hope this answers your question :) With regards, Daniel. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. +1 to moving this into comdev svn, but I do want to hear an answer to the above question. (Yes, I know, you've discussed this with me in IRC, but I'd like to have details on the record so that other people can step up and say, hey, I can do that!)
RE: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
This requires that infra maintain a running instance of OfBiz and that any ComDev member who wants to help out needs to learn OfBiz. Have you consulted with infra? Can ComDev members be expected to learn OfBiz in order to make a small tweak? It seems to me that whilst the extra functionality discussed here would be very valuable there is a much steeper path to build g something maintainable. I'd like to see approach this as a separate proposal from projects.apache.org work. OFbiz is likely to be useful to the Board and various foundation commitees and for this reason I don't see ComDev as being the right home or projects.apache.org being the right target. As I said when you originally raised this I would recommend focusing on a committee that tracks other data, data that is not currently well structured. Trademarks, media, fundraising and whimsy.apache.org are all examples. Ross Sent from my Windows Phone From: Pierre Smitsmailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com Sent: 1/14/2015 5:29 AM To: dev@community.apache.orgmailto:dev@community.apache.org Subject: Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal I agree with Daniel that (several) ASF pages could do with an overhaul to make them more up-to-date regarding usebility and functionality. This is inline with what I said earlier in a thread in this mailing list (see: http://community.markmail.org/message/a73m7slgtqtso3gs?q=list:org%2Eapache%2Ecommunity%2Edev+from:%22Pierre+Smits%22+ofbiz), with regards how OFBiz could support the ASF. Think managing the projects, their contributors and the PMC, as well as iCLA and CCL registration, etc. See also the online storage of a presentation of a mockup that I communicated earlier, via this link: http://www.slideshare.net/pierresmits/ofbiz-4-the-asf Such screens as are proposed by Daniel could be integrated. With regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com/* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Daniel Gruno humbed...@apache.org wrote: Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. With regards, Daniel. With regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com/* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Hi, On 14 Jan 2015, at 06:48, Daniel Gruno humbed...@apache.org wrote: I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. Thanks, Daniel. I would agree that absent a special project dedicated to the website, comdev seems logical. Presumably comdev has the resources? Meaning people with skills, including those related to design, universal access (i.e., accessibility), and the likelihood that whatever is begun will be able to be maintained by whomever comes after? -louis
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Daniel Gruno humbed...@apache.org wrote: ...The site itself is 100% static HTML+JavaScript, I haven't added any arcane Lua/PHP/whatever scripts to it ;) Oh no...it's not really ASF if it doesn't have arcane stuff in it that no one can maintain after a few months ;-) Big thanks for your work Daniel, this looks cool! IIUC you're getting most or all of the data from LDAP? Getting rid of our scattered inconsistent sources of information about our projects would be fantastic. -Bertrand
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
On 2015-01-14 15:39, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Daniel Gruno humbed...@apache.org wrote: ...The site itself is 100% static HTML+JavaScript, I haven't added any arcane Lua/PHP/whatever scripts to it ;) Oh no...it's not really ASF if it doesn't have arcane stuff in it that no one can maintain after a few months ;-) Big thanks for your work Daniel, this looks cool! IIUC you're getting most or all of the data from LDAP? Getting rid of our scattered inconsistent sources of information about our projects would be fantastic. Right now, I am getting it from the various public documents we have, plus the committee info file for the project founding dates, report cycles and so on. I plan to utilize LDAP for whatever I can scrounge up via that. Currently, since this was just a privately hosted proposal, I haven't used LDAP for the data mining, as that is unavailable to me :) But stuff like committer names/id/affiliations could easily be fetched via LDAP. At the moment, I fetch it via the generated documents at people.apache.org, which in turn fetches it from LDAP. With regards, Daniel. -Bertrand
RE: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Louis, these are hardly ad-hoc committees, they are some of the oldest committees in the foundation. They are Presidents committees and without them the ASF would not operate well at all. Whimsy is not a committee but a set of tools maintained by Sam Ruby to help the board. They are invisible to many, but that's because they are operations rather than community committees. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Louis Suárez-Pottsmailto:lui...@gmail.com Sent: 1/14/2015 8:24 AM To: dev@community.apache.orgmailto:dev@community.apache.org Subject: Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal On 14 Jan 2015, at 10:36, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: As I said when you originally raised this I would recommend focusing on a committee that tracks other data, data that is not currently well structured. Trademarks, media, fundraising and whimsy.apache.org are all examples. +1, modulo my own dislike of ad hoc committees that become entrenched as bureaucratic institutions. However, if the other instances that Ross points to have worked well enough and have retained the plasticity that would keep them relevant and useful, then, sure. louis
RE: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Maintaining servers costs money. Money has to come from somewhere and has to be budgeted. We can't just drop a new demand on infra without discussing it with them and ensuring they have the capacity. In terms of maintenance of the result Im thinking who makes the changes we need as requirements change over time? Somebody needs to be responsible for that and we need to be sure it is sustainable. The easier it is to maintain the easier it is to find someone willing to do it. As for my suggestion for OfBiz to be applied to operational area of the foundation I said currently unstructured that is the information is in ad-hoc spreadsheets and mailing lists. OfBiz is, as far as I'm aware, designed for the kinds of functions I listed. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Pierre Smitsmailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com Sent: 1/14/2015 8:25 AM To: dev@community.apache.orgmailto:dev@community.apache.org Subject: Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal Like INFRA is expected to host/support svn instances, etc. All dependant on the requirements of the ASF. OFBiz is the open source business enablement suite of the ASF (the works - as a result of the project being an ASF), though primarily advertised as an ERP/E-Commerce solution by the project. What kind of requirements do think about when considering 'that any ComDev member who wants to help out needs to learn OfBiz'? You are thinking of how to use it? Or are your thoughts tending towards development? Prior to creating the presentation ( http://www.slideshare.net/pierresmits/ofbiz-4-the-asf) I created a new 'community' application working out the PoC and functionality approaches and that was done easily. As easy was converting some of the publicly available data regarding projects and persons and importing it. And that I used to get the screenshots used in the presentation. Yes, OFBiz can also be used for and within other functions/domains of the ASF. As was raised in the recent past regarding fund raising and the book store. But also regarding the tracking and tracing of the promotional materials of the ASF to 3rd party event organisers. How it is used within the ASF is up to the board and its committees. You seem to be suggesting in your last sentence that OFBiz (within the ASF) should be used for the unstructured information and the associated processes of the ASF. For sure, there are other solutions available within the ASF portfolio that cater such requirements better. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: This requires that infra maintain a running instance of OfBiz and that any ComDev member who wants to help out needs to learn OfBiz. Have you consulted with infra? Can ComDev members be expected to learn OfBiz in order to make a small tweak? It seems to me that whilst the extra functionality discussed here would be very valuable there is a much steeper path to build g something maintainable. I'd like to see approach this as a separate proposal from projects.apache.org work. OFbiz is likely to be useful to the Board and various foundation commitees and for this reason I don't see ComDev as being the right home or projects.apache.org being the right target. As I said when you originally raised this I would recommend focusing on a committee that tracks other data, data that is not currently well structured. Trademarks, media, fundraising and whimsy.apache.org are all examples. Ross Sent from my Windows Phone
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Let me just interject that this thread is (or was originally) about replacing a convenience web site that helps people find projects of interest, not about creating a canonical internal source for foundation records :) If such a canonical system was to be made, it would not be projects.apache.org, it would probably be somewhere else (somewhere internal?). I don't know that OFBiz can do the things I have in mind for the projects directory, and as Rich pointed out, this should really be a system that multiple comdev people could maintain and develop, and I only know of one person in this discussion who knows enough about OFBiz to do so. Perhaps we should start a new thread about the OfBiz part? It seems to be a very different discussion than what I had in mind, and most likely a discussion that will go on for some time. Furthermore, with my infra hat on, we already have enough technical debt to deal with in the near future, we will not be supporting a new service like OFBiz for quite a while, and especially not without someone from OFBiz paying the infra tax. With regards, Daniel. On 2015-01-14 17:34, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote: Maintaining servers costs money. Money has to come from somewhere and has to be budgeted. We can't just drop a new demand on infra without discussing it with them and ensuring they have the capacity. In terms of maintenance of the result Im thinking who makes the changes we need as requirements change over time? Somebody needs to be responsible for that and we need to be sure it is sustainable. The easier it is to maintain the easier it is to find someone willing to do it. As for my suggestion for OfBiz to be applied to operational area of the foundation I said currently unstructured that is the information is in ad-hoc spreadsheets and mailing lists. OfBiz is, as far as I'm aware, designed for the kinds of functions I listed. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Pierre Smitsmailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com Sent: 1/14/2015 8:25 AM To: dev@community.apache.orgmailto:dev@community.apache.org Subject: Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal Like INFRA is expected to host/support svn instances, etc. All dependant on the requirements of the ASF. OFBiz is the open source business enablement suite of the ASF (the works - as a result of the project being an ASF), though primarily advertised as an ERP/E-Commerce solution by the project. What kind of requirements do think about when considering 'that any ComDev member who wants to help out needs to learn OfBiz'? You are thinking of how to use it? Or are your thoughts tending towards development? Prior to creating the presentation ( http://www.slideshare.net/pierresmits/ofbiz-4-the-asf) I created a new 'community' application working out the PoC and functionality approaches and that was done easily. As easy was converting some of the publicly available data regarding projects and persons and importing it. And that I used to get the screenshots used in the presentation. Yes, OFBiz can also be used for and within other functions/domains of the ASF. As was raised in the recent past regarding fund raising and the book store. But also regarding the tracking and tracing of the promotional materials of the ASF to 3rd party event organisers. How it is used within the ASF is up to the board and its committees. You seem to be suggesting in your last sentence that OFBiz (within the ASF) should be used for the unstructured information and the associated processes of the ASF. For sure, there are other solutions available within the ASF portfolio that cater such requirements better. Best regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: This requires that infra maintain a running instance of OfBiz and that any ComDev member who wants to help out needs to learn OfBiz. Have you consulted with infra? Can ComDev members be expected to learn OfBiz in order to make a small tweak? It seems to me that whilst the extra functionality discussed here would be very valuable there is a much steeper path to build g something maintainable. I'd like to see approach this as a separate proposal from projects.apache.org work. OFbiz is likely to be useful to the Board and various foundation commitees and for this reason I don't see ComDev as being the right home or projects.apache.org being the right target. As I said when you originally raised this I would recommend focusing on a committee that tracks other data, data that is not currently well structured. Trademarks, media, fundraising and whimsy.apache.org are all examples. Ross Sent from my Windows Phone
RE: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Daniel, There is no assuming just do it :-) You have a number of ComDev PMC members saying +1, and you are a PMC member yourself. Let's have the code where we can start working on it and let's get it to feature parity with projects.apache.org ASAP. I agree with Rich that there is value in this already. This is not to exclude the much broader OfBiz proposal, but it looks to me like this solution is close to being ready to go as a replacement for projects.apache.org and I already see some simple improvements I can make in a coffee break at work :-) Ross -Original Message- From: Daniel Gruno [mailto:humbed...@apache.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:43 AM To: dev@community.apache.org Subject: Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal On 2015-01-14 18:37, Jacques Le Roux wrote: Just as a note for the sake of truth, OFBiz has Content component http://projects.apache.pw/projects.html?category#content http://ofbiz.apache.org/doap_OFBiz.rdf disagrees ;-) but, assuming this gets accepted into comdev, you needn't worry about doap files any longer, as you will be able to edit it online instead. With regards, Daniel. I very like what I saw, kudos! Jacques Le 14/01/2015 12:48, Daniel Gruno a écrit : Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. With regards, Daniel.
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Just as a note for the sake of truth, OFBiz has Content component http://projects.apache.pw/projects.html?category#content I very like what I saw, kudos! Jacques Le 14/01/2015 12:48, Daniel Gruno a écrit : Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. With regards, Daniel.
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
On 2015-01-14 18:37, Jacques Le Roux wrote: Just as a note for the sake of truth, OFBiz has Content component http://projects.apache.pw/projects.html?category#content http://ofbiz.apache.org/doap_OFBiz.rdf disagrees ;-) but, assuming this gets accepted into comdev, you needn't worry about doap files any longer, as you will be able to edit it online instead. With regards, Daniel. I very like what I saw, kudos! Jacques Le 14/01/2015 12:48, Daniel Gruno a écrit : Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. With regards, Daniel.
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Le 14/01/2015 18:42, Daniel Gruno a écrit : On 2015-01-14 18:37, Jacques Le Roux wrote: Just as a note for the sake of truth, OFBiz has Content component http://projects.apache.pw/projects.html?category#content http://ofbiz.apache.org/doap_OFBiz.rdf disagrees ;-) but, assuming this gets accepted into comdev, you needn't worry about doap files any longer, as you will be able to edit it online instead. In the meantime I will amend doap_OFBiz.rdf , thanks for the pointer! Jacques With regards, Daniel. I very like what I saw, kudos! Jacques Le 14/01/2015 12:48, Daniel Gruno a écrit : Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. With regards, Daniel.
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Though it might appear that my contributions in this thread visavis the OFBiz aspect may look like adversity towards deployment on comdev svn so the comdev community can work on it, I am +1 Regards Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: Daniel, There is no assuming just do it :-) You have a number of ComDev PMC members saying +1, and you are a PMC member yourself. Let's have the code where we can start working on it and let's get it to feature parity with projects.apache.org ASAP. I agree with Rich that there is value in this already. This is not to exclude the much broader OfBiz proposal, but it looks to me like this solution is close to being ready to go as a replacement for projects.apache.org and I already see some simple improvements I can make in a coffee break at work :-) Ross -Original Message- From: Daniel Gruno [mailto:humbed...@apache.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:43 AM To: dev@community.apache.org Subject: Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal On 2015-01-14 18:37, Jacques Le Roux wrote: Just as a note for the sake of truth, OFBiz has Content component http://projects.apache.pw/projects.html?category#content http://ofbiz.apache.org/doap_OFBiz.rdf disagrees ;-) but, assuming this gets accepted into comdev, you needn't worry about doap files any longer, as you will be able to edit it online instead. With regards, Daniel. I very like what I saw, kudos! Jacques Le 14/01/2015 12:48, Daniel Gruno a écrit : Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. With regards, Daniel.
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Yes, it's great to have 3 OFBiz demos available, we (me on behalf of the OFBiz team) thank you (the infra team) for that! We could though give one back to infra or the ASF at large ;) Note: I'm not volunterring to support Pierre's idea ;) Jacques Le 14/01/2015 17:45, Daniel Gruno a écrit : Furthermore, with my infra hat on, we already have enough technical debt to deal with in the near future, we will not be supporting a new service like OFBiz for quite a while, and especially not without someone from OFBiz paying the infra tax. With regards, Daniel.
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
I agree with Daniel that (several) ASF pages could do with an overhaul to make them more up-to-date regarding usebility and functionality. This is inline with what I said earlier in a thread in this mailing list (see: http://community.markmail.org/message/a73m7slgtqtso3gs?q=list:org%2Eapache%2Ecommunity%2Edev+from:%22Pierre+Smits%22+ofbiz), with regards how OFBiz could support the ASF. Think managing the projects, their contributors and the PMC, as well as iCLA and CCL registration, etc. See also the online storage of a presentation of a mockup that I communicated earlier, via this link: http://www.slideshare.net/pierresmits/ofbiz-4-the-asf Such screens as are proposed by Daniel could be integrated. With regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com/* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Daniel Gruno humbed...@apache.org wrote: Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. With regards, Daniel. With regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com/* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Why don't we create an improvement issue in the JIRA of comdev to track issues regarding this proposal. That will ensure that everything regarding requirements, suggestions, approaches etc is registered in one place and (amongst others) sub-tasks can be registered to track progress. Regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote: On 01/14/2015 06:48 AM, Daniel Gruno wrote: Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. This is really cool stuff, and answers many of the questions that I go hunting for every time I do a presentation about the ASF. I'm *sure* I'll have feature requests going forward. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. So, one thing you don't appear to mention ... what language is this all written in. My biggest concern with this is that it, like the first generation projects.a.o, might end up being another single-developer, single-maintainer site, and thus end up being unmaintained in short order. We want to avoid that. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. +1 to moving this into comdev svn, but I do want to hear an answer to the above question. (Yes, I know, you've discussed this with me in IRC, but I'd like to have details on the record so that other people can step up and say, hey, I can do that!) -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
On 01/14/2015 06:48 AM, Daniel Gruno wrote: Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. This is really cool stuff, and answers many of the questions that I go hunting for every time I do a presentation about the ASF. I'm *sure* I'll have feature requests going forward. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. So, one thing you don't appear to mention ... what language is this all written in. My biggest concern with this is that it, like the first generation projects.a.o, might end up being another single-developer, single-maintainer site, and thus end up being unmaintained in short order. We want to avoid that. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. +1 to moving this into comdev svn, but I do want to hear an answer to the above question. (Yes, I know, you've discussed this with me in IRC, but I'd like to have details on the record so that other people can step up and say, hey, I can do that!) -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
On 01/14/2015 08:28 AM, Pierre Smits wrote: I agree with Daniel that (several) ASF pages could do with an overhaul to make them more up-to-date regarding usebility and functionality. This is inline with what I said earlier in a thread in this mailing list (see: http://community.markmail.org/message/a73m7slgtqtso3gs?q=list:org%2Eapache%2Ecommunity%2Edev+from:%22Pierre+Smits%22+ofbiz), with regards how OFBiz could support the ASF. Think managing the projects, their contributors and the PMC, as well as iCLA and CCL registration, etc. That strikes me as a HUGE amount of data re-entry work. See also the online storage of a presentation of a mockup that I communicated earlier, via this link: http://www.slideshare.net/pierresmits/ofbiz-4-the-asf Such screens as are proposed by Daniel could be integrated. With regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com/* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Daniel Gruno humbed...@apache.org wrote: Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. With regards, Daniel. With regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com/* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
Replies in-line On 2015-01-14 14:28, Pierre Smits wrote: I agree with Daniel that (several) ASF pages could do with an overhaul to make them more up-to-date regarding usebility and functionality. This is inline with what I said earlier in a thread in this mailing list (see: http://community.markmail.org/message/a73m7slgtqtso3gs?q=list:org%2Eapache%2Ecommunity%2Edev+from:%22Pierre+Smits%22+ofbiz), with regards how OFBiz could support the ASF. Think managing the projects, their contributors and the PMC, as well as iCLA and CCL registration, etc. I don't think ICLA/CCLA is going to change anytime soon, that's something that would require board agreement and much more, not to mention a whole lot of paperwork being redone (some 5,000 agreements to be entered into the system manually) See also the online storage of a presentation of a mockup that I communicated earlier, via this link: http://www.slideshare.net/pierresmits/ofbiz-4-the-asf I can definitely see the advantages here, but also the disadvantages, namely that we would have to resubmit every bit of information, and unless you have a month or more worth of free time to devote yourself to this, this is simply not going to happen. What I have proposed is a sort of middle ground, where all the previous data is kept intact (converted to JSON) and can then be edited if need be. I like your idea, I just don't think it's possible to do it with what we have available and what people are willing to redo. Thus, I am proposing we instead simply use what we already have, but change how it is presented and edited. Such screens as are proposed by Daniel could be integrated. With regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com/* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Daniel Gruno humbed...@apache.org wrote: Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. With regards, Daniel. With regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com/* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: projects.apache.org overhaul proposal
On 2015-01-14 15:04, Pierre Smits wrote: Why don't we create an improvement issue in the JIRA of comdev to track issues regarding this proposal. That will ensure that everything regarding requirements, suggestions, approaches etc is registered in one place and (amongst others) sub-tasks can be registered to track progress. First off, comdev needs to officially accept the task of maintaining the site. It is currently maintained by infra, which has no interest in running it. Secondly, I think we need to figure out which proposal we are going to run with for now, and then we can set up a JIRA ticket or three to track progress. We shouldn't turn JIRA into a discussion/voting tool when email works out really well. No need to reinvent the wheel. With regards, Daniel. Regards, Pierre Smits *ORRTIZ.COM http://www.orrtiz.com* Services Solutions for Cloud- Based Manufacturing, Professional Services and Retail Trade http://www.orrtiz.com On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote: On 01/14/2015 06:48 AM, Daniel Gruno wrote: Hi folks, I was having a conversation with Rich (Bowen) some weeks ago, and the sentiment was that our projects page ( projects.apache.org http://projects.apache.org ) could use a big overhaul. It's outdated, not very user friendly, doesn't really compile the data into anything useful (mostly just displays raw data) and it's difficult to navigate (no search abilities, no actual overviews). Therefore, I propose that the community development project takes over this project from Infra, which has no interest in continuing/maintaining it, and revamps it with both a new site design and a new LDAP/JSON-based information system which would enable people to edit their project details online without having to upload/change RDF files when something happens. This would also mean that everything could be rendered in the browser instead of relying on daily cron jobs to compile the page, and also allow us to add some inspiring/interesting graphical charts and overviews/timelines. I have been working on a proposal that follows these ideas, which is available for preview at http://projects.apache.pw/ for those interested. Only the first two tabs in the menu currently work (and the extensive search feature), but that is still most of what the old site has and then some. I am pondering on moving some of the front page stuff to the 'Timelines' tab instead, feedback is appreciated on this. This is really cool stuff, and answers many of the questions that I go hunting for every time I do a presentation about the ASF. I'm *sure* I'll have feature requests going forward. So, comments, feedback, questions, anything is most welcome, especially comments on whether you: 1) think comdev should be responsible for the projects directory 2) think the proposal looks good/swell/nifty/whatever. So, one thing you don't appear to mention ... what language is this all written in. My biggest concern with this is that it, like the first generation projects.a.o, might end up being another single-developer, single-maintainer site, and thus end up being unmaintained in short order. We want to avoid that. A few notes on the search feature: - You can search for virtually anything within a project, types, languages, descriptions, bug-trackers etc - Try typing your committer ID or Apache ID into the box, and it will show all projects you are a part of If there is consensus for moving this into comdev framework and collaborating on this, I will commit the proposal to a sub-folder in the comdev svn repository and ask infra for a VM where we can set this up. +1 to moving this into comdev svn, but I do want to hear an answer to the above question. (Yes, I know, you've discussed this with me in IRC, but I'd like to have details on the record so that other people can step up and say, hey, I can do that!) -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
