Re: Jakarta EE / DeltaSpike 2.0 Status

[Romain Manni-Bucau]

Le mar. 4 avr. 2023 à 11:18, Thomas Andraschko 
a écrit :

> I think the most features and modules are just working fine - normal tests
> are running.
> Just container testing may find weird bugs.
> So its not about the effort of "reimplementing features" vs "dropping
> features", its all already there.
>

I don't get it, there are a few things to consider:

1. we are going major with jakarta so the entry point is >> the one we had
before, for ex, BeanProvider or all bean builders are built in now so why
duplicating?
2. I didn't reall speak about "reimplementing" anything but more about
making it user friendly, if you take deltaspike + the required underlying
container as of today, > 60% overlaps so as an user what should you use? It
is was more obvious if the choice is unique to write clean and portable
code than having iso alternatives in the IDE IMHO.
3. we'll don't maintain the workarounds we have in the code and as you
mention we need some real effort to ensure it is portable (which is not as
of today AFAIK due to last weld updates) so the point of resources is key
from my point of view

So overall converging to the project staff and end users it makes sense to
drop most of what got added to the spec (sometimes thanks to DS :)).


> Am Di., 4. Apr. 2023 um 10:44 Uhr schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau <
> rmannibu...@gmail.com>:
>
> > Le mar. 4 avr. 2023 à 10:22, Thomas Andraschko <
> > andraschko.tho...@gmail.com>
> > a écrit :
> >
> > > In theory we could remove TX (if all cases are handled by JTA) and move
> > the
> > > EntityManagerResolver + JPA descriptor parsing to Data itself.
> > >
> > > In general i think our goal should be to port the DS features, if still
> > not
> > > existing in EE10, to EE10. Not to remove everything not widely used.
> > > This allows users to migrate to EE10 with some adjustments.
> > >
> >
> > This assumes it is used but this is really unsure, stats we have
> (central)
> > are really about CI zone and major is our best chance to drop what is not
> > needed to focus our effort on what is actually used.
> > Indeed not a blocker but my 2cts would be to drop what we can to
> > potentially add it back if we get a lot of demand rather than the
> opposite
> > which means we'll keep dragging things to maintain almost nobody needs.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Am Di., 4. Apr. 2023 um 10:06 Uhr schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau <
> > > rmannibu...@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Do we have some visibility about the usage?
> > > > Think jpa/tx feature tend to disappear in new applications because
> JTA
> > > got
> > > > it (we like or not the design is another thing but feature is there
> > > > built-in now comared to when DS was created).
> > > > So for a new major we can aim at dropping it - keeping in 1.x.
> > > > About data module I guess the adoption is not that high even if
> module
> > is
> > > > really "cool" - guess we miss the jaxrs bridge but we never got any
> > > request
> > > > about it - so not sure its future.
> > > > It can likely be the same for almost all core module which is now
> > almost
> > > > standard in CDI or Microprofile/coming Jakarta (idea being to not
> bring
> > > > things without added value in time for a new major).
> > > >
> > > > So overall I wouldnt aim at renaming but more pruning what is built
> in
> > or
> > > > will be soon and make DS lighter now resources are very low and the
> > need
> > > of
> > > > the project really less important than years ago.
> > > >
> > > > Hope it makes sense.
> > > >
> > > > Romain Manni-Bucau
> > > > @rmannibucau  |  Blog
> > > >  | Old Blog
> > > >  | Github <
> > > > https://github.com/rmannibucau> |
> > > > LinkedIn  | Book
> > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java-ee-8-high-performance
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Le mar. 4 avr. 2023 à 09:57, Thomas Andraschko <
> > > > andraschko.tho...@gmail.com>
> > > > a écrit :
> > > >
> > > > > JPA is also about reading the JPA XML descriptors and resolving
> > > > > EntityManagers, which is both heavily used in the Data module.
> > > > > So its currently much more than TX. I would rename it to
> > ds-persistence
> > > > and
> > > > > ds-faces.
> > > > >
> > > > > Am Mo., 3. Apr. 2023 um 19:20 Uhr schrieb Gerhard Petracek <
> > > > > gpetra...@apache.org>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > hi thomas,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > we need to fix the rat-check (see [1]).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > @renaming the modules:
> > > > > > the jpa-module was always mainly about the "entitymanager" +
> > > > > > "transaction" (see the package-naming)... with the main focus on
> > > > > > transactions (see @Transactional and @TransactionScoped as the
> main
> > > > > > api).
> > > > > > therefore we almost renamed it to ds-tx (in the beginning). we
> just
> > > > > > kept 'jpa', because it wasn't clear what we 

Re: Jakarta EE / DeltaSpike 2.0 Status

[Thomas Andraschko]

I think the most features and modules are just working fine - normal tests
are running.
Just container testing may find weird bugs.
So its not about the effort of "reimplementing features" vs "dropping
features", its all already there.

Am Di., 4. Apr. 2023 um 10:44 Uhr schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau <
rmannibu...@gmail.com>:

> Le mar. 4 avr. 2023 à 10:22, Thomas Andraschko <
> andraschko.tho...@gmail.com>
> a écrit :
>
> > In theory we could remove TX (if all cases are handled by JTA) and move
> the
> > EntityManagerResolver + JPA descriptor parsing to Data itself.
> >
> > In general i think our goal should be to port the DS features, if still
> not
> > existing in EE10, to EE10. Not to remove everything not widely used.
> > This allows users to migrate to EE10 with some adjustments.
> >
>
> This assumes it is used but this is really unsure, stats we have (central)
> are really about CI zone and major is our best chance to drop what is not
> needed to focus our effort on what is actually used.
> Indeed not a blocker but my 2cts would be to drop what we can to
> potentially add it back if we get a lot of demand rather than the opposite
> which means we'll keep dragging things to maintain almost nobody needs.
>
>
> >
> >
> > Am Di., 4. Apr. 2023 um 10:06 Uhr schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau <
> > rmannibu...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Do we have some visibility about the usage?
> > > Think jpa/tx feature tend to disappear in new applications because JTA
> > got
> > > it (we like or not the design is another thing but feature is there
> > > built-in now comared to when DS was created).
> > > So for a new major we can aim at dropping it - keeping in 1.x.
> > > About data module I guess the adoption is not that high even if module
> is
> > > really "cool" - guess we miss the jaxrs bridge but we never got any
> > request
> > > about it - so not sure its future.
> > > It can likely be the same for almost all core module which is now
> almost
> > > standard in CDI or Microprofile/coming Jakarta (idea being to not bring
> > > things without added value in time for a new major).
> > >
> > > So overall I wouldnt aim at renaming but more pruning what is built in
> or
> > > will be soon and make DS lighter now resources are very low and the
> need
> > of
> > > the project really less important than years ago.
> > >
> > > Hope it makes sense.
> > >
> > > Romain Manni-Bucau
> > > @rmannibucau  |  Blog
> > >  | Old Blog
> > >  | Github <
> > > https://github.com/rmannibucau> |
> > > LinkedIn  | Book
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java-ee-8-high-performance
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Le mar. 4 avr. 2023 à 09:57, Thomas Andraschko <
> > > andraschko.tho...@gmail.com>
> > > a écrit :
> > >
> > > > JPA is also about reading the JPA XML descriptors and resolving
> > > > EntityManagers, which is both heavily used in the Data module.
> > > > So its currently much more than TX. I would rename it to
> ds-persistence
> > > and
> > > > ds-faces.
> > > >
> > > > Am Mo., 3. Apr. 2023 um 19:20 Uhr schrieb Gerhard Petracek <
> > > > gpetra...@apache.org>:
> > > >
> > > > > hi thomas,
> > > > >
> > > > > we need to fix the rat-check (see [1]).
> > > > >
> > > > > @renaming the modules:
> > > > > the jpa-module was always mainly about the "entitymanager" +
> > > > > "transaction" (see the package-naming)... with the main focus on
> > > > > transactions (see @Transactional and @TransactionScoped as the main
> > > > > api).
> > > > > therefore we almost renamed it to ds-tx (in the beginning). we just
> > > > > kept 'jpa', because it wasn't clear what we might add later on.
> > > > > maybe we should just start a community-poll about it.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards,
> > > > > gerhard
> > > > >
> > > > > [1]
> > > > >
> > >
> https://ci-builds.apache.org/job/DeltaSpike/job/DeltaSpike%20RAT-Check/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Am Mo., 3. Apr. 2023 um 16:08 Uhr schrieb Thomas Andraschko
> > > > > :
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > last week i had some time and migrated almost all still existing
> > > > modules
> > > > > to
> > > > > > Jakarta. Only scheduler is currently not migrated.
> > > > > > AFAICS servlet, bean-validation has been removed, also other
> small
> > > > pieces
> > > > > > of core.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would also like to rename jpa and jsf to their new jakarta name
> > > > > > (persistence and faces).
> > > > > > WDYT guys?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > After that rename and reintroduce the scheduler module, i would
> be
> > > > happy
> > > > > > enough to release a RC1.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > AFAICS a big missing part are the tests on real containers?!
> > > > > > Any other topics we need to address?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > Thomas
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Jakarta EE / DeltaSpike 2.0 Status

[Romain Manni-Bucau]

Le mar. 4 avr. 2023 à 10:22, Thomas Andraschko 
a écrit :

> In theory we could remove TX (if all cases are handled by JTA) and move the
> EntityManagerResolver + JPA descriptor parsing to Data itself.
>
> In general i think our goal should be to port the DS features, if still not
> existing in EE10, to EE10. Not to remove everything not widely used.
> This allows users to migrate to EE10 with some adjustments.
>

This assumes it is used but this is really unsure, stats we have (central)
are really about CI zone and major is our best chance to drop what is not
needed to focus our effort on what is actually used.
Indeed not a blocker but my 2cts would be to drop what we can to
potentially add it back if we get a lot of demand rather than the opposite
which means we'll keep dragging things to maintain almost nobody needs.


>
>
> Am Di., 4. Apr. 2023 um 10:06 Uhr schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau <
> rmannibu...@gmail.com>:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Do we have some visibility about the usage?
> > Think jpa/tx feature tend to disappear in new applications because JTA
> got
> > it (we like or not the design is another thing but feature is there
> > built-in now comared to when DS was created).
> > So for a new major we can aim at dropping it - keeping in 1.x.
> > About data module I guess the adoption is not that high even if module is
> > really "cool" - guess we miss the jaxrs bridge but we never got any
> request
> > about it - so not sure its future.
> > It can likely be the same for almost all core module which is now almost
> > standard in CDI or Microprofile/coming Jakarta (idea being to not bring
> > things without added value in time for a new major).
> >
> > So overall I wouldnt aim at renaming but more pruning what is built in or
> > will be soon and make DS lighter now resources are very low and the need
> of
> > the project really less important than years ago.
> >
> > Hope it makes sense.
> >
> > Romain Manni-Bucau
> > @rmannibucau  |  Blog
> >  | Old Blog
> >  | Github <
> > https://github.com/rmannibucau> |
> > LinkedIn  | Book
> > <
> >
> https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java-ee-8-high-performance
> > >
> >
> >
> > Le mar. 4 avr. 2023 à 09:57, Thomas Andraschko <
> > andraschko.tho...@gmail.com>
> > a écrit :
> >
> > > JPA is also about reading the JPA XML descriptors and resolving
> > > EntityManagers, which is both heavily used in the Data module.
> > > So its currently much more than TX. I would rename it to ds-persistence
> > and
> > > ds-faces.
> > >
> > > Am Mo., 3. Apr. 2023 um 19:20 Uhr schrieb Gerhard Petracek <
> > > gpetra...@apache.org>:
> > >
> > > > hi thomas,
> > > >
> > > > we need to fix the rat-check (see [1]).
> > > >
> > > > @renaming the modules:
> > > > the jpa-module was always mainly about the "entitymanager" +
> > > > "transaction" (see the package-naming)... with the main focus on
> > > > transactions (see @Transactional and @TransactionScoped as the main
> > > > api).
> > > > therefore we almost renamed it to ds-tx (in the beginning). we just
> > > > kept 'jpa', because it wasn't clear what we might add later on.
> > > > maybe we should just start a community-poll about it.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > > gerhard
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> > > >
> > https://ci-builds.apache.org/job/DeltaSpike/job/DeltaSpike%20RAT-Check/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Am Mo., 3. Apr. 2023 um 16:08 Uhr schrieb Thomas Andraschko
> > > > :
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > last week i had some time and migrated almost all still existing
> > > modules
> > > > to
> > > > > Jakarta. Only scheduler is currently not migrated.
> > > > > AFAICS servlet, bean-validation has been removed, also other small
> > > pieces
> > > > > of core.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would also like to rename jpa and jsf to their new jakarta name
> > > > > (persistence and faces).
> > > > > WDYT guys?
> > > > >
> > > > > After that rename and reintroduce the scheduler module, i would be
> > > happy
> > > > > enough to release a RC1.
> > > > >
> > > > > AFAICS a big missing part are the tests on real containers?!
> > > > > Any other topics we need to address?
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > Thomas
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Jakarta EE / DeltaSpike 2.0 Status

[Thomas Andraschko]

In theory we could remove TX (if all cases are handled by JTA) and move the
EntityManagerResolver + JPA descriptor parsing to Data itself.

In general i think our goal should be to port the DS features, if still not
existing in EE10, to EE10. Not to remove everything not widely used.
This allows users to migrate to EE10 with some adjustments.


Am Di., 4. Apr. 2023 um 10:06 Uhr schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau <
rmannibu...@gmail.com>:

> Hi,
>
> Do we have some visibility about the usage?
> Think jpa/tx feature tend to disappear in new applications because JTA got
> it (we like or not the design is another thing but feature is there
> built-in now comared to when DS was created).
> So for a new major we can aim at dropping it - keeping in 1.x.
> About data module I guess the adoption is not that high even if module is
> really "cool" - guess we miss the jaxrs bridge but we never got any request
> about it - so not sure its future.
> It can likely be the same for almost all core module which is now almost
> standard in CDI or Microprofile/coming Jakarta (idea being to not bring
> things without added value in time for a new major).
>
> So overall I wouldnt aim at renaming but more pruning what is built in or
> will be soon and make DS lighter now resources are very low and the need of
> the project really less important than years ago.
>
> Hope it makes sense.
>
> Romain Manni-Bucau
> @rmannibucau  |  Blog
>  | Old Blog
>  | Github <
> https://github.com/rmannibucau> |
> LinkedIn  | Book
> <
> https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java-ee-8-high-performance
> >
>
>
> Le mar. 4 avr. 2023 à 09:57, Thomas Andraschko <
> andraschko.tho...@gmail.com>
> a écrit :
>
> > JPA is also about reading the JPA XML descriptors and resolving
> > EntityManagers, which is both heavily used in the Data module.
> > So its currently much more than TX. I would rename it to ds-persistence
> and
> > ds-faces.
> >
> > Am Mo., 3. Apr. 2023 um 19:20 Uhr schrieb Gerhard Petracek <
> > gpetra...@apache.org>:
> >
> > > hi thomas,
> > >
> > > we need to fix the rat-check (see [1]).
> > >
> > > @renaming the modules:
> > > the jpa-module was always mainly about the "entitymanager" +
> > > "transaction" (see the package-naming)... with the main focus on
> > > transactions (see @Transactional and @TransactionScoped as the main
> > > api).
> > > therefore we almost renamed it to ds-tx (in the beginning). we just
> > > kept 'jpa', because it wasn't clear what we might add later on.
> > > maybe we should just start a community-poll about it.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > gerhard
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> https://ci-builds.apache.org/job/DeltaSpike/job/DeltaSpike%20RAT-Check/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Am Mo., 3. Apr. 2023 um 16:08 Uhr schrieb Thomas Andraschko
> > > :
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > last week i had some time and migrated almost all still existing
> > modules
> > > to
> > > > Jakarta. Only scheduler is currently not migrated.
> > > > AFAICS servlet, bean-validation has been removed, also other small
> > pieces
> > > > of core.
> > > >
> > > > I would also like to rename jpa and jsf to their new jakarta name
> > > > (persistence and faces).
> > > > WDYT guys?
> > > >
> > > > After that rename and reintroduce the scheduler module, i would be
> > happy
> > > > enough to release a RC1.
> > > >
> > > > AFAICS a big missing part are the tests on real containers?!
> > > > Any other topics we need to address?
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Thomas
> > >
> >
>

Re: Jakarta EE / DeltaSpike 2.0 Status

[Romain Manni-Bucau]

Hi,

Do we have some visibility about the usage?
Think jpa/tx feature tend to disappear in new applications because JTA got
it (we like or not the design is another thing but feature is there
built-in now comared to when DS was created).
So for a new major we can aim at dropping it - keeping in 1.x.
About data module I guess the adoption is not that high even if module is
really "cool" - guess we miss the jaxrs bridge but we never got any request
about it - so not sure its future.
It can likely be the same for almost all core module which is now almost
standard in CDI or Microprofile/coming Jakarta (idea being to not bring
things without added value in time for a new major).

So overall I wouldnt aim at renaming but more pruning what is built in or
will be soon and make DS lighter now resources are very low and the need of
the project really less important than years ago.

Hope it makes sense.

Romain Manni-Bucau
@rmannibucau  |  Blog
 | Old Blog
 | Github  |
LinkedIn  | Book



Le mar. 4 avr. 2023 à 09:57, Thomas Andraschko 
a écrit :

> JPA is also about reading the JPA XML descriptors and resolving
> EntityManagers, which is both heavily used in the Data module.
> So its currently much more than TX. I would rename it to ds-persistence and
> ds-faces.
>
> Am Mo., 3. Apr. 2023 um 19:20 Uhr schrieb Gerhard Petracek <
> gpetra...@apache.org>:
>
> > hi thomas,
> >
> > we need to fix the rat-check (see [1]).
> >
> > @renaming the modules:
> > the jpa-module was always mainly about the "entitymanager" +
> > "transaction" (see the package-naming)... with the main focus on
> > transactions (see @Transactional and @TransactionScoped as the main
> > api).
> > therefore we almost renamed it to ds-tx (in the beginning). we just
> > kept 'jpa', because it wasn't clear what we might add later on.
> > maybe we should just start a community-poll about it.
> >
> > regards,
> > gerhard
> >
> > [1]
> > https://ci-builds.apache.org/job/DeltaSpike/job/DeltaSpike%20RAT-Check/
> >
> >
> >
> > Am Mo., 3. Apr. 2023 um 16:08 Uhr schrieb Thomas Andraschko
> > :
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > last week i had some time and migrated almost all still existing
> modules
> > to
> > > Jakarta. Only scheduler is currently not migrated.
> > > AFAICS servlet, bean-validation has been removed, also other small
> pieces
> > > of core.
> > >
> > > I would also like to rename jpa and jsf to their new jakarta name
> > > (persistence and faces).
> > > WDYT guys?
> > >
> > > After that rename and reintroduce the scheduler module, i would be
> happy
> > > enough to release a RC1.
> > >
> > > AFAICS a big missing part are the tests on real containers?!
> > > Any other topics we need to address?
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Thomas
> >
>

Re: Jakarta EE / DeltaSpike 2.0 Status

[Thomas Andraschko]

JPA is also about reading the JPA XML descriptors and resolving
EntityManagers, which is both heavily used in the Data module.
So its currently much more than TX. I would rename it to ds-persistence and
ds-faces.

Am Mo., 3. Apr. 2023 um 19:20 Uhr schrieb Gerhard Petracek <
gpetra...@apache.org>:

> hi thomas,
>
> we need to fix the rat-check (see [1]).
>
> @renaming the modules:
> the jpa-module was always mainly about the "entitymanager" +
> "transaction" (see the package-naming)... with the main focus on
> transactions (see @Transactional and @TransactionScoped as the main
> api).
> therefore we almost renamed it to ds-tx (in the beginning). we just
> kept 'jpa', because it wasn't clear what we might add later on.
> maybe we should just start a community-poll about it.
>
> regards,
> gerhard
>
> [1]
> https://ci-builds.apache.org/job/DeltaSpike/job/DeltaSpike%20RAT-Check/
>
>
>
> Am Mo., 3. Apr. 2023 um 16:08 Uhr schrieb Thomas Andraschko
> :
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > last week i had some time and migrated almost all still existing modules
> to
> > Jakarta. Only scheduler is currently not migrated.
> > AFAICS servlet, bean-validation has been removed, also other small pieces
> > of core.
> >
> > I would also like to rename jpa and jsf to their new jakarta name
> > (persistence and faces).
> > WDYT guys?
> >
> > After that rename and reintroduce the scheduler module, i would be happy
> > enough to release a RC1.
> >
> > AFAICS a big missing part are the tests on real containers?!
> > Any other topics we need to address?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Thomas
>