Re: Does Travis and/or Jenkins run the NetBeans test suite?
That would be good... I an interested in doing this for Groovy Support as well... maybe we can figure out a standard way how to do this. -Sven Jan Lahoda schrieb am Mi., 18. Juli 2018, 08:05: > FWIW, I'd like to set-up testing of the java.completion module on various > JDKs (and eventually other Java-related modules), but I didn't get to that > yet. > > Jan > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 6:24 AM, Jaroslav Tulach < > jaroslav.tul...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > FYI: > > https://builds.apache.org/job/incubator-netbeans-linux/ > > and > > https://builds.apache.org/job/incubator-netbeans-windows > > run platform tests. > > > > -jt > > > > > > Dne neděle 15. července 2018 18:47:51 CEST, Eirik Bakke napsal(a): > > > When I make a pull request on GitHub, there is a nice little checkmark > > > saying "All checks have passed", with a link to a Travis CI build (e.g. > > > https://travis-ci.org/apache/incubator-netbeans/builds/ > > 395547620?utm_source > > > =github_status&utm_medium=notification ). > > > > > > Looking at the raw output of the Travis build, am I correct that this > > does > > > _not_ actually run the NetBeans test suite? I searched the console > output > > > and did not find expected messages such as "Tests run:" or "do-junit" > or > > > "[junit]". > > > > > > Is this also the case for the Jenkins builds at > > > https://builds.apache.org/view/Incubator%20Projects/job/ > > incubator-netbeans-> release ? > > > > > > Is the current codebase supposed to pass all tests at this point? When > I > > > check out the 9.0-vc3 tag, for instance, both of the following fail > with > > > various errors: > > > > > > ant commit-validation > > > ant -Dtest-unit-sys-prop.ignore.random.failures=true test > > > > > > Are these supposed to work? > > > > > > -- Eirik > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > >
Re: Does Travis and/or Jenkins run the NetBeans test suite?
FWIW, I'd like to set-up testing of the java.completion module on various JDKs (and eventually other Java-related modules), but I didn't get to that yet. Jan On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 6:24 AM, Jaroslav Tulach wrote: > FYI: > https://builds.apache.org/job/incubator-netbeans-linux/ > and > https://builds.apache.org/job/incubator-netbeans-windows > run platform tests. > > -jt > > > Dne neděle 15. července 2018 18:47:51 CEST, Eirik Bakke napsal(a): > > When I make a pull request on GitHub, there is a nice little checkmark > > saying "All checks have passed", with a link to a Travis CI build (e.g. > > https://travis-ci.org/apache/incubator-netbeans/builds/ > 395547620?utm_source > > =github_status&utm_medium=notification ). > > > > Looking at the raw output of the Travis build, am I correct that this > does > > _not_ actually run the NetBeans test suite? I searched the console output > > and did not find expected messages such as "Tests run:" or "do-junit" or > > "[junit]". > > > > Is this also the case for the Jenkins builds at > > https://builds.apache.org/view/Incubator%20Projects/job/ > incubator-netbeans-> release ? > > > > Is the current codebase supposed to pass all tests at this point? When I > > check out the 9.0-vc3 tag, for instance, both of the following fail with > > various errors: > > > > ant commit-validation > > ant -Dtest-unit-sys-prop.ignore.random.failures=true test > > > > Are these supposed to work? > > > > -- Eirik > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > >
Re: Does Travis and/or Jenkins run the NetBeans test suite?
FYI: https://builds.apache.org/job/incubator-netbeans-linux/ and https://builds.apache.org/job/incubator-netbeans-windows run platform tests. -jt Dne neděle 15. července 2018 18:47:51 CEST, Eirik Bakke napsal(a): > When I make a pull request on GitHub, there is a nice little checkmark > saying "All checks have passed", with a link to a Travis CI build (e.g. > https://travis-ci.org/apache/incubator-netbeans/builds/395547620?utm_source > =github_status&utm_medium=notification ). > > Looking at the raw output of the Travis build, am I correct that this does > _not_ actually run the NetBeans test suite? I searched the console output > and did not find expected messages such as "Tests run:" or "do-junit" or > "[junit]". > > Is this also the case for the Jenkins builds at > https://builds.apache.org/view/Incubator%20Projects/job/incubator-netbeans-> > release ? > > Is the current codebase supposed to pass all tests at this point? When I > check out the 9.0-vc3 tag, for instance, both of the following fail with > various errors: > > ant commit-validation > ant -Dtest-unit-sys-prop.ignore.random.failures=true test > > Are these supposed to work? > > -- Eirik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: Public vs. Friend API?
Dne sobota 14. července 2018 6:46:06 CEST, Tim Boudreau napsal(a): > There are friend APIs in NetBeans that have not seen a single change in > going on a decade. All of those IMO, should simply get the "friend" label > removed from them - if it hasn't changed in that long, it's clearly stable > in every practical meaning of the word. I'm just suggesting a way to make > that automatic, Turn all current [Friend APIs](http://wiki.netbeans.org/API_Stability#Friend) into [Under development ones](http://wiki.netbeans.org/API_Stability#Devel). Before you do the above change: - [snapshot current APIs](http://wiki.netbeans.org/SignatureTest) of 9.0 release - make sure the build fails on an accidental change in such APIs That's my 2 Kč suggestion. -jt - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: Apache NetBeans Apress Book
I've just briefly touched base with Apress on the idea and the editor I spoke to sounds very interested. He says that they can divide the book up amongst any number of authors, and also do bylines for each of the chapters so that the respective authors will be noted. Typically in this situation there is one person who acts as the lead on the project. That way the editors and project coordinators at Apress can work with the lead, rather than all of the separate authors. Anyone interested in taking lead on the book? If so then I can get you in touch with the editor and we can get the details of each author/chapter, etc. worked out. Thanks Josh Juneau juneau...@gmail.com http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866 > On Jul 17, 2018, at 3:40 AM, Delfi Ramirez wrote: > > +1 Huang Kai 😉 > > A wonder of myself to the community. Is there exist any intention or interest > to include JSF in the topics -- chapters, subchapters -- of the book? > > Cheers > > Delfi Ramirez > > Segonquart Studio > > https://segonquart.net > > From: huang kai > Sent: 17 July 2018 10:30 > To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > Subject: Re: Apache NetBeans Apress Book > > Hi, all > > I live in china and have been using netbeans for swing and java ee dev > for about 10 years. I think I can help translate the book to chinese, > let's make this great platform speading more faster. > > cheers. > > Kain Huang > > >> On 7/16/2018 7:53 PM, Delfi Ramirez wrote: >> Hi All: >> >> Agreed there is the need of a chapter-by-chapter community written book. >> >> Count me in. Even if there is the need for the book, once written, of a >> single translator for the whole community content. >> >> Even everyone of us has English as a mother tongue or second tongue, we may >> able to reach and target new markets and new loyal fellows in this world >> wide world we live in >> >> Cheers >> >> >> Delfi Ramirez >> >> Segonquart Studio >> >> https://segonquart.net >> >> From: Oliver Rettig >> Sent: 16 July 2018 13:47 >> To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org >> Subject: Re: Apache NetBeans Apress Book >> >> Hi all, >> >> I like the idea of a community-written book very much. This can encourage >> people to join >> our great community and it show that netbeans is now a apache project ... >> For me the >> community is one of the most important facts to work with netbeans and >> rarely with eclipse. >> >> I have some experience with writing a book for Tomcat 5: >> >> https://www.rheinwerk-verlag.de/tomcat-5_700/ >> >> and the most important thing I have learned from this book project is: >> better not to write >> such books alone. >> >> It would be a pleasure for me to write a chapter for a community-written >> Netbeans book, or >> may be to translate from english to german some parts, if we want to have a >> german >> version. >> >> But I have less experience in organzing such things. In scientific >> communities typically you >> have an editor or a small team of editors. Their job is often really a lot >> of work: to defines the >> chapters/articles, to find people who can write the articles and to push the >> authors to deliver >> in the timeline. >> >> An other question is where and how to publish the book. My experience with >> the Tomcat >> book was that the publisher was a really great help in formatting and >> proofreading. And a >> publisher can be a very big help in invertising for apache netbeans. >> >> But it should be also possible to write the book without a publisher at our >> own. In this case >> we can have an open-pdf-Version of the book. Maye we can have this too with >> a publisher? >> >> best regards >> Oliver >> >> >>> I've been approached by Apress regarding interest in a book on Apache >>> NetBeans. I personally do not have enough time to devote to another book >>> right now, so I wanted to send a note to the Apache NetBeans developer >>> group to see if there are any developers interested in authoring a book >>> (perhaps a collaborative effort). >>> >>> I know things are very busy right now, and I've already told Apress that >>> the main focus is the release of Apache NetBeans 9 right now, but maybe a >>> book project could start this fall. There are no timelines right >>> now...just interest in a book on the new open Apache NetBeans IDE. >>> >>> If anyone is interested then reply to this message and I can get a list of >>> names together to send along to Apress. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Josh Juneau >>> juneau...@gmail.com >>> http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com >>> https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866 >> >> >> > >
Re: Apache NetBeans IDE 9.0 Community Acceptance Survey
Hi again, this is just a kind reminder about Community Acceptance survey for Apache NetBeans IDE 9.0 release. If you have not participated yet, please share with us your opinion on quality of the 9.0 Vote Candidate 3 build. There is still some time but don't wait long as the survey closes in 5 days on July 22nd! Thanks a lot, -Jirka Dne 9.7.2018 v 17:35 Jiří Kovalský napsal(a): Hello NetBeans community, Apache NetBeans IDE 9.0 Vote Candidate (VC) 3 [1] build has been published [1] and so the time for the final Community Acceptance survey [2] has come too. The essential purpose of this survey is to find out if NetBeans community accepts the latest VC build as ready for GA or not. Please note that this poll is not about Apache NetBeans IDE 9.0 sources but about its functionality and behavior. [1] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__dist.apache.org_repos_dist_dev_incubator_netbeans_incubating-2Dnetbeans-2Djava_incubating-2D9.0-2Dvc3_&d=DwIDBA&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=8_Pz0x0SKeT5e3IehhQKCbQ2xl3tz40jnCU133NrdP4&m=urvPbe5P5r1WAGaek7eHIdTXlaIAIuT20nz4RJXPchI&s=4lhMdQk2p0q6vhsbt4cpQX0p8i5b_KX0UeeeRe2at2Y&e= [2] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__goo.gl_forms_AaxLnkFeRwCTgj182&d=DwIDBA&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=8_Pz0x0SKeT5e3IehhQKCbQ2xl3tz40jnCU133NrdP4&m=urvPbe5P5r1WAGaek7eHIdTXlaIAIuT20nz4RJXPchI&s=Zo7DFMLLXGLeg4XULL9I3ax0i9P7JQ6Ec2pml2pi65k&e= This is a very important milestone of the release cycle so we turn to you - NetBeans users - with request for help. Please download this Vote Candidate, edit your Java sources, debug the code, try refactoring features, simply test your typical use cases and once you gain a solid opinion about the VC build please take this short survey. It will stay open until Sunday - July 22nd midnight last timezone. In spite of that please complete the survey as soon as you can. Thanks for your cooperation and feedback! -- Best regards, Jiří Kovalský https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__netbeans.apache.org&d=DwIDBA&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=8_Pz0x0SKeT5e3IehhQKCbQ2xl3tz40jnCU133NrdP4&m=urvPbe5P5r1WAGaek7eHIdTXlaIAIuT20nz4RJXPchI&s=Mb3dYXJ5EhWCxNA2u5LGN6YczNkC7mTqOGgDKpAhSjY&e= - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__cwiki.apache.org_confluence_display_NETBEANS_Mailing-2Blists&d=DwIDBA&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=8_Pz0x0SKeT5e3IehhQKCbQ2xl3tz40jnCU133NrdP4&m=urvPbe5P5r1WAGaek7eHIdTXlaIAIuT20nz4RJXPchI&s=3qnXmA5ZCHiJhcmP91LTHFt2X1pvoCoYWThCexxV0uQ&e= - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: Apache NetBeans Apress Book
Can someone link the current book to netbeans.apache.org? Would've good to reference it in the documentation page and when /if the new book comes the link can be updated. On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:40 Delfi Ramirez, wrote: > +1 Huang Kai 😉 > > A wonder of myself to the community. Is there exist any intention or > interest to include JSF in the topics -- chapters, subchapters -- of the > book? > > Cheers > > Delfi Ramirez > > Segonquart Studio > > https://segonquart.net > > From: huang kai > Sent: 17 July 2018 10:30 > To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > Subject: Re: Apache NetBeans Apress Book > > Hi, all > > I live in china and have been using netbeans for swing and java ee dev > for about 10 years. I think I can help translate the book to chinese, > let's make this great platform speading more faster. > > cheers. > > Kain Huang > > > On 7/16/2018 7:53 PM, Delfi Ramirez wrote: > > Hi All: > > > > Agreed there is the need of a chapter-by-chapter community written book. > > > > Count me in. Even if there is the need for the book, once written, of a > single translator for the whole community content. > > > > Even everyone of us has English as a mother tongue or second tongue, we > may able to reach and target new markets and new loyal fellows in this > world wide world we live in > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Delfi Ramirez > > > > Segonquart Studio > > > > https://segonquart.net > > > > From: Oliver Rettig > > Sent: 16 July 2018 13:47 > > To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > > Subject: Re: Apache NetBeans Apress Book > > > > Hi all, > > > > I like the idea of a community-written book very much. This can > encourage people to join > > our great community and it show that netbeans is now a apache project > ... For me the > > community is one of the most important facts to work with netbeans and > rarely with eclipse. > > > > I have some experience with writing a book for Tomcat 5: > > > > https://www.rheinwerk-verlag.de/tomcat-5_700/ > > > > and the most important thing I have learned from this book project is: > better not to write > > such books alone. > > > > It would be a pleasure for me to write a chapter for a community-written > Netbeans book, or > > may be to translate from english to german some parts, if we want to > have a german > > version. > > > > But I have less experience in organzing such things. In scientific > communities typically you > > have an editor or a small team of editors. Their job is often really a > lot of work: to defines the > > chapters/articles, to find people who can write the articles and to push > the authors to deliver > > in the timeline. > > > > An other question is where and how to publish the book. My experience > with the Tomcat > > book was that the publisher was a really great help in formatting and > proofreading. And a > > publisher can be a very big help in invertising for apache netbeans. > > > > But it should be also possible to write the book without a publisher at > our own. In this case > > we can have an open-pdf-Version of the book. Maye we can have this too > with a publisher? > > > > best regards > > Oliver > > > > > >> I've been approached by Apress regarding interest in a book on Apache > >> NetBeans. I personally do not have enough time to devote to another > book > >> right now, so I wanted to send a note to the Apache NetBeans developer > >> group to see if there are any developers interested in authoring a book > >> (perhaps a collaborative effort). > >> > >> I know things are very busy right now, and I've already told Apress that > >> the main focus is the release of Apache NetBeans 9 right now, but maybe > a > >> book project could start this fall. There are no timelines right > >> now...just interest in a book on the new open Apache NetBeans IDE. > >> > >> If anyone is interested then reply to this message and I can get a list > of > >> names together to send along to Apress. > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> Josh Juneau > >> juneau...@gmail.com > >> http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com > >> https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866 > > > > > > > > >
RE: Apache NetBeans Apress Book
+1 Huang Kai 😉 A wonder of myself to the community. Is there exist any intention or interest to include JSF in the topics -- chapters, subchapters -- of the book? Cheers Delfi Ramirez Segonquart Studio https://segonquart.net From: huang kai Sent: 17 July 2018 10:30 To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Apache NetBeans Apress Book Hi, all I live in china and have been using netbeans for swing and java ee dev for about 10 years. I think I can help translate the book to chinese, let's make this great platform speading more faster. cheers. Kain Huang On 7/16/2018 7:53 PM, Delfi Ramirez wrote: > Hi All: > > Agreed there is the need of a chapter-by-chapter community written book. > > Count me in. Even if there is the need for the book, once written, of a > single translator for the whole community content. > > Even everyone of us has English as a mother tongue or second tongue, we may > able to reach and target new markets and new loyal fellows in this world wide > world we live in > > Cheers > > > Delfi Ramirez > > Segonquart Studio > > https://segonquart.net > > From: Oliver Rettig > Sent: 16 July 2018 13:47 > To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > Subject: Re: Apache NetBeans Apress Book > > Hi all, > > I like the idea of a community-written book very much. This can encourage > people to join > our great community and it show that netbeans is now a apache project ... For > me the > community is one of the most important facts to work with netbeans and rarely > with eclipse. > > I have some experience with writing a book for Tomcat 5: > > https://www.rheinwerk-verlag.de/tomcat-5_700/ > > and the most important thing I have learned from this book project is: better > not to write > such books alone. > > It would be a pleasure for me to write a chapter for a community-written > Netbeans book, or > may be to translate from english to german some parts, if we want to have a > german > version. > > But I have less experience in organzing such things. In scientific > communities typically you > have an editor or a small team of editors. Their job is often really a lot of > work: to defines the > chapters/articles, to find people who can write the articles and to push the > authors to deliver > in the timeline. > > An other question is where and how to publish the book. My experience with > the Tomcat > book was that the publisher was a really great help in formatting and > proofreading. And a > publisher can be a very big help in invertising for apache netbeans. > > But it should be also possible to write the book without a publisher at our > own. In this case > we can have an open-pdf-Version of the book. Maye we can have this too with a > publisher? > > best regards > Oliver > > >> I've been approached by Apress regarding interest in a book on Apache >> NetBeans. I personally do not have enough time to devote to another book >> right now, so I wanted to send a note to the Apache NetBeans developer >> group to see if there are any developers interested in authoring a book >> (perhaps a collaborative effort). >> >> I know things are very busy right now, and I've already told Apress that >> the main focus is the release of Apache NetBeans 9 right now, but maybe a >> book project could start this fall. There are no timelines right >> now...just interest in a book on the new open Apache NetBeans IDE. >> >> If anyone is interested then reply to this message and I can get a list of >> names together to send along to Apress. >> >> Thanks >> >> Josh Juneau >> juneau...@gmail.com >> http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com >> https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866 > > >
Re: Apache NetBeans Apress Book
Hi, all I live in china and have been using netbeans for swing and java ee dev for about 10 years. I think I can help translate the book to chinese, let's make this great platform speading more faster. cheers. Kain Huang On 7/16/2018 7:53 PM, Delfi Ramirez wrote: > Hi All: > > Agreed there is the need of a chapter-by-chapter community written book. > > Count me in. Even if there is the need for the book, once written, of a > single translator for the whole community content. > > Even everyone of us has English as a mother tongue or second tongue, we may > able to reach and target new markets and new loyal fellows in this world wide > world we live in > > Cheers > > > Delfi Ramirez > > Segonquart Studio > > https://segonquart.net > > From: Oliver Rettig > Sent: 16 July 2018 13:47 > To: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > Subject: Re: Apache NetBeans Apress Book > > Hi all, > > I like the idea of a community-written book very much. This can encourage > people to join > our great community and it show that netbeans is now a apache project ... For > me the > community is one of the most important facts to work with netbeans and rarely > with eclipse. > > I have some experience with writing a book for Tomcat 5: > > https://www.rheinwerk-verlag.de/tomcat-5_700/ > > and the most important thing I have learned from this book project is: better > not to write > such books alone. > > It would be a pleasure for me to write a chapter for a community-written > Netbeans book, or > may be to translate from english to german some parts, if we want to have a > german > version. > > But I have less experience in organzing such things. In scientific > communities typically you > have an editor or a small team of editors. Their job is often really a lot of > work: to defines the > chapters/articles, to find people who can write the articles and to push the > authors to deliver > in the timeline. > > An other question is where and how to publish the book. My experience with > the Tomcat > book was that the publisher was a really great help in formatting and > proofreading. And a > publisher can be a very big help in invertising for apache netbeans. > > But it should be also possible to write the book without a publisher at our > own. In this case > we can have an open-pdf-Version of the book. Maye we can have this too with a > publisher? > > best regards > Oliver > > >> I've been approached by Apress regarding interest in a book on Apache >> NetBeans. I personally do not have enough time to devote to another book >> right now, so I wanted to send a note to the Apache NetBeans developer >> group to see if there are any developers interested in authoring a book >> (perhaps a collaborative effort). >> >> I know things are very busy right now, and I've already told Apress that >> the main focus is the release of Apache NetBeans 9 right now, but maybe a >> book project could start this fall. There are no timelines right >> now...just interest in a book on the new open Apache NetBeans IDE. >> >> If anyone is interested then reply to this message and I can get a list of >> names together to send along to Apress. >> >> Thanks >> >> Josh Juneau >> juneau...@gmail.com >> http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com >> https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866 > > >
AW: Public vs. Friend API?
In my opinion, we Need more and more public apis, to extend everything in NetBeans. Here are some more examples: It is not possible to extend all other Editors, except from Java. The most usable public API is for the Java Editor. You can extend add hints for example, but only for the Java Editor. You can’t add hints for PHP, C/C++, HTML, XML, JS, CSS, LESS, SCSS, etc. We can’t create Plugins for mixing languages together like embedding languages of using SQL inside any language, where it is needed etc. Because we can’t get Access to the Tokens of any other languages except from Java. No SQLTokens, no JSTokens, no HTMLTokens, etc. So public apis and stable/unstable flags are a must have, to extend the DIE with 3rd-party-plugins IMHO. Cheers Chris Von: Tim Boudreau Gesendet: Samstag, 14. Juli 2018 23:16 An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org Betreff: Re: Public vs. Friend API? On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 6:23 AM Neil C Smith wrote: > On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 at 05:41, Tim Boudreau wrote: > > I was there when friend APIs were being invented. The *entire* purpose > was > > for a developer to evolve an API, > > Well, fair enough, can't argue with that (although I'd argue there are > uses now that aren't for that purpose). Still seems the wrong way > around to me in comparison to other things I've worked with. > > > IMO, there *is no such thing as a "true friend" API.* If you don't want > to > > publish an API, put all of your code in one module - the compatibility > > contract is between that module and itself. If module X depends on > module > > Y, and nothing else may depend on Y, and X cannot function without Y, > then > > you have *a single logical module.* You might think it looks nicer > carved > > up into two pieces, but at that point you're doing code feng shui, not > > engineering. > > There are other reasons for using more than one module where you > *never* intend to create a public API, but need other aspects of the > module system - optionally loaded parts, OS-specific parts, etc. So I > *am* thinking of a small number of things that are logically a unit. > True that things like OS-specific pieces are a special case. Optional seems iffy (unless it's huge, just bundle it but don't load it if you don't need it). But I think there's also a bit of social nudging any infrastructure around this inevitably does - and a solution where creating a public, maintained API with a commitment to backward compatibility is the path of least resistance is going to have far more benefits for the project as a whole than one where creating permanent friend APIs is the path of least resistance, and that's what the existing way of doing things has gotten us. > > If you have "non-stable dependencies", eventually that is all that will > > exist. Nobody would prefer to keep compatibility if they don't have to. > > Well, that's a pessimistic viewpoint! ;-) 19 years working on or involved in a project will do that :-) But seriously, if you have a shifting team of developers over a period of years, the best guarantee that the things you want to happen on an ongoing basis are remembered is if there is automation and infrastructure that makes them a natural part of doing work. Otherwise you're relying on institutional knowledge and someone having the time and concern to do it. I've seen "please make my module a friend of X" bugs languish for 6-9 months simply because it wasn't someone's priority, and they were working for someone who didn't see it as a priority either. If it's "hey we better stabilize this or we've got to live with it as-is", that makes it a priority, like it or not. > But I agree with you that > time-limiting instability is probably a good idea. And if optionally > installed modules can only be installed against a single release > (major/minor not point) of the IDE (and perhaps show a big warning > dialog to that fact) I think you'd see things pushed to become stable. > > > You can. If you're writing an IDE module, your users can't. They just > > upgrade the IDE and find something doesn't work anymore, say "this sucks" > > and go download Eclipse. > > I'd argue that the friend system has made that problem worse not > better. Assuming in-development API's don't change via automatic > updates as opposed to manual upgrade, then I don't see the issue here. > With the friend API you either don't have the module in the first > place, or a module that's had to hack its way into working in such a > way that it's more prone to breakage?! > Agree that it doesn't help much - heck, just recently I was playing with Rust and found someone's Rust plugin on Github, which uses a ton of friend and implementation dependencies that are broken, and rather than dig into it I gave up. A process that time-limits "unstable" APIs would fix that. -Tim
