Re: OOo:eo Localization page

[Dean . Webber]

> How many localization pages need to be translated? How many pages are 'not 
> maintained'?

>the default set has ~40 pages. But I haven't counted the total amount of words 
>or sentences.

Link to the default set please, in english, are we talking 
https://www.openoffice.org

Perhaps, I can try to do the OOo:eo and see what happens?

Then for the rest, are we talking https://www.openoffice.org/xyz/ ?

Will this be done via Pootle, https://translate.apache.org/projects/aoo40/ or 
just through the localization mailing list.

Thanks,
Dean

From: Marcus 
Sent: Tuesday, 11 May 2021 11:07 AM
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org 
Subject: Re: OOo:eo Localization page

Am 11.05.21 um 00:18 schrieb Dean.Webber:
> How many localization pages need to be translated? How many pages are 'not 
> maintained'?

the default set has ~40 pages. But I haven't counted the total amount of
words or sentences.

> Depending on the extend of the pages, we can adopt a translate service (which 
> will have some cost attached). For example to translate 100 pages of similar 
> character length using the yandex translate api will cost $5.00/month 
> (assuming USD).

Hm, costs are always not a good argument. OpenOffice is made by
volunteers. The same should apply to the creation and maintenance of
webpages or documentation in general.

I don't know the quality of translated languages of Yandex or others.
But I know Google Translate and its quality is ... improvable. ;-)

> Otherwise perhaps a list of these pages can be left for those that are new 
> recruits, or looking for something to do. So, if they chose too, they can 
> spend some time working on localizations or translations. They can then use a 
> translate service (for free) to convert from the sources to the localization 
> language.
>
> This may result in poor quality translation, but enough for people to get the 
> general idea, and a good starting point for native language speakers to 
> modify pages.

As written previously the pages are unmaintained for years. There are no
volunteers that would take care of it. So, translating a part of it and
then others can do the remaining stuff will not come true.

Very seldom we get a mail that someone has seen a message like you can
see here in the red box [1]. We give them a few hints and how and where
to start with translation and then ... noting more. Thats all.

> But honestly, I have no idea of the scale of the localization pages.

The problem is that there is nobody who can take care of these pages.
The effort for a few or even one person is enormous. I mean the project
people. Volunteers of course would takeover only one language.

I don't want to be seen as carrier of bad news. However, the value-add
is very low as the very most pages are for languages that aren't really
widespread by its nature.

[1] 
https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openoffice.org%2Fast%2F&data=04%7C01%7C2018001901%40student.sit.ac.nz%7Cf44721a3d4fd46774bbf08d914086d03%7Cc46ab213d1794a719ff7b9d9fe3f3b48%7C0%7C0%7C637562848714527198%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=fT8dm2ekGZAYKjrWjN69%2FA37IL1MuFpkvbcR2umIeOw%3D&reserved=0

Marcus



> 
> From: Marcus 
> Sent: Tuesday, 11 May 2021 6:16 AM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org 
> Subject: Re: OOo:eo Localization page
>
> Am 10.05.21 um 05:46 schrieb Dean.Webber:
>> Can not these pages then be converted to language using translate service?
>>
>> [...]
>
> the effort would be much too high.
> It' not only Esperanto. We then have to do this for every language that
> is a bit unmaintained which would be 2 dozends. And there are still
> languages we don't offer yet at least as an entry website. Another 3
> dozens more I would guess.
>
> So, who should do this work? ;-)
>
> Esperanto is still there:
> https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openoffice.org%2Feo%2F&data=04%7C01%7C2018001901%40student.sit.ac.nz%7Cf44721a3d4fd46774bbf08d914086d03%7Cc46ab213d1794a719ff7b9d9fe3f3b48%7C0%7C0%7C637562848714532187%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=mrxOb%2F4gLidto3O3aLkxUVzQGfai43tJ4BXMTheHm5c%3D&reserved=0
>
> If you want to help, feel free to give us a hint.
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
>> 
>> From: Marcus 
>> Sent: Saturday, 8 May 2021 10:16 AM
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org ; François Coulmeau 
>> 
>> Cc: Emmanuelle Richard 
>> Subject: Re: OOo:eo Localization page
>>
>> Am 07.05.21 um 22:39 schrieb François Coulmeau:
>>> As I could see in 
>>> "https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openoffice.org%2Fprojects%2Fnative-lang.html&data=04%7C01%7C2018001901%40student.sit.ac.nz%7Cf44721a3d4fd46774bbf08d914086d03%7Cc46ab213d1794a719ff7b9d9fe3f3b48%7C0%7C0%7C637562848714532187%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC

Re: OOo:eo Localization page

[Marcus]

Am 11.05.21 um 00:18 schrieb Dean.Webber:

How many localization pages need to be translated? How many pages are 'not 
maintained'?


the default set has ~40 pages. But I haven't counted the total amount of 
words or sentences.



Depending on the extend of the pages, we can adopt a translate service (which 
will have some cost attached). For example to translate 100 pages of similar 
character length using the yandex translate api will cost $5.00/month (assuming 
USD).


Hm, costs are always not a good argument. OpenOffice is made by 
volunteers. The same should apply to the creation and maintenance of 
webpages or documentation in general.


I don't know the quality of translated languages of Yandex or others. 
But I know Google Translate and its quality is ... improvable. ;-)



Otherwise perhaps a list of these pages can be left for those that are new 
recruits, or looking for something to do. So, if they chose too, they can spend 
some time working on localizations or translations. They can then use a 
translate service (for free) to convert from the sources to the localization 
language.

This may result in poor quality translation, but enough for people to get the 
general idea, and a good starting point for native language speakers to modify 
pages.


As written previously the pages are unmaintained for years. There are no 
volunteers that would take care of it. So, translating a part of it and 
then others can do the remaining stuff will not come true.


Very seldom we get a mail that someone has seen a message like you can 
see here in the red box [1]. We give them a few hints and how and where 
to start with translation and then ... noting more. Thats all.



But honestly, I have no idea of the scale of the localization pages.


The problem is that there is nobody who can take care of these pages. 
The effort for a few or even one person is enormous. I mean the project 
people. Volunteers of course would takeover only one language.


I don't want to be seen as carrier of bad news. However, the value-add 
is very low as the very most pages are for languages that aren't really 
widespread by its nature.


[1] https://www.openoffice.org/ast/

Marcus





From: Marcus 
Sent: Tuesday, 11 May 2021 6:16 AM
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org 
Subject: Re: OOo:eo Localization page

Am 10.05.21 um 05:46 schrieb Dean.Webber:

Can not these pages then be converted to language using translate service?

[...]


the effort would be much too high.
It' not only Esperanto. We then have to do this for every language that
is a bit unmaintained which would be 2 dozends. And there are still
languages we don't offer yet at least as an entry website. Another 3
dozens more I would guess.

So, who should do this work? ;-)

Esperanto is still there:
https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openoffice.org%2Feo%2F&data=04%7C01%7C2018001901%40student.sit.ac.nz%7C19720c7995254940a5e208d913dfc285%7Cc46ab213d1794a719ff7b9d9fe3f3b48%7C0%7C0%7C637562674049152421%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=BhLPGbJot2CX%2BDOviz3TkeReTr3UgxDocVGTjsMvR0Q%3D&reserved=0

If you want to help, feel free to give us a hint.

Marcus





From: Marcus 
Sent: Saturday, 8 May 2021 10:16 AM
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org ; François Coulmeau 

Cc: Emmanuelle Richard 
Subject: Re: OOo:eo Localization page

Am 07.05.21 um 22:39 schrieb François Coulmeau:

As I could see in 
"https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openoffice.org%2Fprojects%2Fnative-lang.html&data=04%7C01%7C2018001901%40student.sit.ac.nz%7C19720c7995254940a5e208d913dfc285%7Cc46ab213d1794a719ff7b9d9fe3f3b48%7C0%7C0%7C637562674049152421%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=pJ%2Fzi6fJivtnkFPBPYrtdlNtfSivxyr0M6KQ8Tg4YKo%3D&reserved=0";

 that help is
wanted for Esperanto Website and that Esperanto OpenOffice availability
is outdated, I went to page 
"https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openoffice.org%2Feo%2F&data=04%7C01%7C2018001901%40student.sit.ac.nz%7C19720c7995254940a5e208d913dfc285%7Cc46ab213d1794a719ff7b9d9fe3f3b48%7C0%7C0%7C637562674049157414%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Le2W6lmXOMPcbVFm4PyTCdFCHKoB6lUlACKgxdNY%2B%2FM%3D&reserved=0";.
 But ...

1 - I was supposed to find a link somewhere on the left ("vidu la
ligil

Re: OOo:eo Localization page

[Dean . Webber]

How many localization pages need to be translated? How many pages are 'not 
maintained'?

Depending on the extend of the pages, we can adopt a translate service (which 
will have some cost attached). For example to translate 100 pages of similar 
character length using the yandex translate api will cost $5.00/month (assuming 
USD).

Otherwise perhaps a list of these pages can be left for those that are new 
recruits, or looking for something to do. So, if they chose too, they can spend 
some time working on localizations or translations. They can then use a 
translate service (for free) to convert from the sources to the localization 
language.

This may result in poor quality translation, but enough for people to get the 
general idea, and a good starting point for native language speakers to modify 
pages.

But honestly, I have no idea of the scale of the localization pages.

Else;

Some of you out there with big brains can have a look into the available 
machine learning programs for language translation...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_machine_translation_applications
Some of which... are very powerful 🙂

From: Marcus 
Sent: Tuesday, 11 May 2021 6:16 AM
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org 
Subject: Re: OOo:eo Localization page

Am 10.05.21 um 05:46 schrieb Dean.Webber:
> Can not these pages then be converted to language using translate service?
>
> [...]

the effort would be much too high.
It' not only Esperanto. We then have to do this for every language that
is a bit unmaintained which would be 2 dozends. And there are still
languages we don't offer yet at least as an entry website. Another 3
dozens more I would guess.

So, who should do this work? ;-)

Esperanto is still there:
https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openoffice.org%2Feo%2F&data=04%7C01%7C2018001901%40student.sit.ac.nz%7C19720c7995254940a5e208d913dfc285%7Cc46ab213d1794a719ff7b9d9fe3f3b48%7C0%7C0%7C637562674049152421%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=BhLPGbJot2CX%2BDOviz3TkeReTr3UgxDocVGTjsMvR0Q%3D&reserved=0

If you want to help, feel free to give us a hint.

Marcus



> 
> From: Marcus 
> Sent: Saturday, 8 May 2021 10:16 AM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org ; François Coulmeau 
> 
> Cc: Emmanuelle Richard 
> Subject: Re: OOo:eo Localization page
>
> Am 07.05.21 um 22:39 schrieb François Coulmeau:
>> As I could see in 
>> "https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openoffice.org%2Fprojects%2Fnative-lang.html&data=04%7C01%7C2018001901%40student.sit.ac.nz%7C19720c7995254940a5e208d913dfc285%7Cc46ab213d1794a719ff7b9d9fe3f3b48%7C0%7C0%7C637562674049152421%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=pJ%2Fzi6fJivtnkFPBPYrtdlNtfSivxyr0M6KQ8Tg4YKo%3D&reserved=0";
>> 
>>  that help is
>> wanted for Esperanto Website and that Esperanto OpenOffice availability
>> is outdated, I went to page 
>> "https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openoffice.org%2Feo%2F&data=04%7C01%7C2018001901%40student.sit.ac.nz%7C19720c7995254940a5e208d913dfc285%7Cc46ab213d1794a719ff7b9d9fe3f3b48%7C0%7C0%7C637562674049157414%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Le2W6lmXOMPcbVFm4PyTCdFCHKoB6lUlACKgxdNY%2B%2FM%3D&reserved=0";.
>>  But ...
>>
>> 1 - I was supposed to find a link somewhere on the left ("vidu la
>> ligilojn maldekstre") that I cannot see (Would you like a screenshot?).
>> The section « *Navigado:* en la kadro maldekstre troviĝas ligoj al paĝoj
>> de la projekto esperantlingva » states a frame should be found on the
>> left, but the text is full width;
>>
>> 2 - I tried the link "vidu la projekton Komputeko
>> ",
>>  that is broken ;
>>
>> 3 - I sent a message (via the last line: "Skribu al La Esperantiga Skipo
>> "), that was returned (see the message below).
>>
>> Can we find someone at Apache to update the page? Or, better to
>> "localize" (or "unlocalize", a

Re: Start working on AOO 4.1.11? (was: Re: Hyperlink Warning Message)

[Marcus]

Am 06.05.21 um 15:50 schrieb Matthias Seidel:

Am 06.05.21 um 15:08 schrieb Jim Jagielski:

Once we tag HEAD of AOO41X to AOO4110


Can't wait! ;-)

I have dozens of commits to be backported to AOO41X...


@Jim:
Can you please create the release tag from the 41X branch? Then we can 
close the relase schedule for 4.1.10.


Thanksa

Marcus




On May 6, 2021, at 8:28 AM, Matthias Seidel  wrote:

Hi all,

Just a pragmatic question:

When do we want to start working on AOO 4.1.11?

The sooner we branch it, the sooner we can do Test builds and let people
see if their problem is fixed...

Matthias

Am 05.05.21 um 23:31 schrieb Peter Kovacs:

On 05.05.21 22:11, Arrigo Marchiori wrote:

Hello Peter, all,

On Wed, May 05, 2021 at 05:44:17PM +, Peter Kovacs wrote:


On 05.05.21 14:37, Arrigo Marchiori wrote:

Hello,

On Wed, May 05, 2021 at 07:08:11AM +, Peter Kovacs wrote:


The best approach I believe is to add a whitelist feature as for
macro
files.

Users can add then the links they wish to approve.

Do you mean file-based whitelists instead of target-based?

I will try to explain myself better: the current filter on AOO 4.1.10
is target-based, because it is the target of the link that triggers
the warning. Are you suggesting to add a whitelist based on files, for
example "allow any links in documents from this directory"?

If so, would you use the same whitelist as for macros, or would you
introduce another one?

I do not think that it makes sense to allow
https://my.payload.crime/AOO_diskscrambler.ods to be seen as save
target for
opening and macro execution at the same time.

Better is to have both separated. And the simple practicable
solution is to
just add an own list which allows targets to be listed.

I see.  But please let us distinguish targets and sources.

Well, yea this is a nice abstraction I did not make. Good one.

The macros' whitelist contains _directories_ (I don't really like
calling them folders, I hope you don't mind) whose files are trusted,
with respect to macro execution.

sure. Names are sound and smoke ;) - sorry can not resist this german
IT idiom.

In your reply above you seem to discuss a whitelist of _link targets_?
Not documents, containing links that shall always be followed?

Yes, I thought on the target of the link. For me was this the
important trait.

However if I think in which document I grant the security level. Hmm,
I think this makes the whole concept a lot easier.

Plus we would then one list. So we extend an existing feature.


If we would want to have a vision, where we should develop to, this
would be
mine:

We have One list and 2 properties. 1 property for hyperlink
whitelisting,
the other one for (macro) execution. I like our 4 security stages.

The four security levels currently available for macros, if I
understand correctly, are based on a combination of:

   - digital signatures of the macros (signed or not),
   - trust of certain digital signatures (certificate trusted or not),
   - position of the document (directory whitelisted or not).

This is... quite complex IMHO.

That why I have written it is maybe a vision. And maybe it is to much.

Did you refer exactly to this model?

yes kind of. I thought that a hyperlink has some sort of certiicate
and an macro can have some certification and that is kind of the same
thing...

Or
shall we rather adopt a simpler one for links, for example only
considering the directories whitelist?

Now that I think on your approach I think we should only look at the
directory that the document has been opened from. But still I would
still rather configure it per directory, then in a general and work
with exclusions.

However this is maybe not so smart to implement now, since our profile
is not robust enough. It will break eventually, and then all nice
settings are lost. And that is not something I would like to have.


And to understand better: does AOO allow to sign individual macros? Or
just the document containing them? I don't think that it allows to
sign individual links within a document.

No it would not sign individual links on the document.- But don't we
have document signing?

For links we could check if the document is signed.


So summing up:

# Instead of checking where the hyperlink is refering to, only check
where the document has been stored. (Treat hyperlinks as macros so to
say.)

# As an enhancement we could add a model that checks for the nearest
applicable path to the document, and applies that rule.


Example for a customized setup on a POSIX filesystem (security level
3 =
very high and 0 = low; first value is hyperlink, second value is macro
execution of this origin):

/tmp  (3,3) => Everything in the temp folder does not open links or
execute
macros

~/ (2,2) => something that is within the home path, but not a folder
listed
below, may execute signed macros or open targets that have a trusted
certificate

~/Downloads (2,3) => Downloads may open Links with a trusted
certificate but
not allow to exe

Re: OOo:eo Localization page

[Marcus]

Am 10.05.21 um 05:46 schrieb Dean.Webber:

Can not these pages then be converted to language using translate service?

[...]


the effort would be much too high.
It' not only Esperanto. We then have to do this for every language that 
is a bit unmaintained which would be 2 dozends. And there are still 
languages we don't offer yet at least as an entry website. Another 3 
dozens more I would guess.


So, who should do this work? ;-)

Esperanto is still there:
https://www.openoffice.org/eo/

If you want to help, feel free to give us a hint.

Marcus





From: Marcus 
Sent: Saturday, 8 May 2021 10:16 AM
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org ; François Coulmeau 

Cc: Emmanuelle Richard 
Subject: Re: OOo:eo Localization page

Am 07.05.21 um 22:39 schrieb François Coulmeau:

As I could see in 
"https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openoffice.org%2Fprojects%2Fnative-lang.html&data=04%7C01%7C2018001901%40student.sit.ac.nz%7C23f90fb51b234c5c426708d911a5d2fe%7Cc46ab213d1794a719ff7b9d9fe3f3b48%7C0%7C0%7C637560226193122594%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=ughYqFvGH9rQpi3x6r%2FtukrU8fFM1Nn9%2B3iSaEcJ%2BNI%3D&reserved=0";

 that help is
wanted for Esperanto Website and that Esperanto OpenOffice availability
is outdated, I went to page 
"https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.openoffice.org%2Feo%2F&data=04%7C01%7C2018001901%40student.sit.ac.nz%7C23f90fb51b234c5c426708d911a5d2fe%7Cc46ab213d1794a719ff7b9d9fe3f3b48%7C0%7C0%7C637560226193122594%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=rvESlCUQMn2gj32F8YPZ2ntrJeCfzLF0cO%2FgQioMWJw%3D&reserved=0";.
 But ...

1 - I was supposed to find a link somewhere on the left ("vidu la
ligilojn maldekstre") that I cannot see (Would you like a screenshot?).
The section « *Navigado:* en la kadro maldekstre troviĝas ligoj al paĝoj
de la projekto esperantlingva » states a frame should be found on the
left, but the text is full width;

2 - I tried the link "vidu la projekton Komputeko
",
 that is broken ;

3 - I sent a message (via the last line: "Skribu al La Esperantiga Skipo
"), that was returned (see the message below).

Can we find someone at Apache to update the page? Or, better to
"localize" (or "unlocalize", as Esperanto is used worldwide!) OpenOffice?

Aren't esperantists to help updating the page and/or OOo:eo (they would
need data from Apache)?


at the moment we are looking into webpages that are unmaintained and
therefore don't show an added value. These should be deleted. Esperanto
is one of them as it is lonely since years. So, I wanted to delete this
in the next days.

However, when you have real interest to get this up-to-date again, then
just give us a hint. We can help you with updating the information - but
not with translating the text.



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