Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
On 24.11.19 09:44, Jörg Schmidt wrote: >>> Thank you for this (imho) very important info. Not good >> that the community was not informed about it, but this info >> was apparently only known internally. >> >> It was informed and the discussion was started on September >> 1, 2016. [1] >> >> I am proud of the community’s progress since then. > Maybe there are some things to be proud of, only the years go by and AOO is > only a shadow compared to the previous OOo. > > We haven't managed to become so attractive that more programmers, more > volunteers overall, find their way into the project. I'm afraid that's also a > consequence of bad project management. > A self-critical analysis and discussion could improve that, not the kind of > talk I unfortunately just read from Michael. I am open on any suggestion to improve recruitment. My main problem is that people showing up want a quick easy access and clear understamble tasks what to do. I have no open PMC actions that would help me to improve current situation. I am listening to your suggestions! I have not seen any so far, but it is never to late to start. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
> -Original Message- > From: Dave Fisher [mailto:w...@apache.org] > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 7:42 PM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back > in our PMC and developer circle) > > > > > On Nov 21, 2019, at 4:11 AM, Jörg Schmidt > wrote: > > Thank you for this (imho) very important info. Not good > that the community was not informed about it, but this info > was apparently only known internally. > > It was informed and the discussion was started on September > 1, 2016. [1] > > I am proud of the community’s progress since then. Maybe there are some things to be proud of, only the years go by and AOO is only a shadow compared to the previous OOo. We haven't managed to become so attractive that more programmers, more volunteers overall, find their way into the project. I'm afraid that's also a consequence of bad project management. A self-critical analysis and discussion could improve that, not the kind of talk I unfortunately just read from Michael. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
> On Nov 21, 2019, at 1:41 PM, Dave Fisher wrote: > > I am proud of the community’s progress since then. > FWIW, so am I. I think it was Good that we (the entire AOO community) took time to really decide what we wanted, and expected, from the project and out of the project and made sure that those decisions and expectations matched with reality.
RE: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
Hello, > -Original Message- > From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:pe...@apache.org] > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 8:32 AM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back > in our PMC and developer circle) > > hi everyone, > [...] I did not complain about the dominance of a company! I don't want to say anything more about the rest because I consider it pointless. I feel that an open discussion is not desired, I have to take note of that. These statements do not concern you Peter, but others. You, Peter, have tried to help me several times, my thanks for that. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
> -Original Message- > From: Dave Fisher [mailto:w...@apache.org] > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 4:51 PM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back > in our PMC and developer circle) > At the Foundation we expect that everyone working on a > project are doing so as individuals and any merit attained is > as an individual. [1] In the initial formation of a project > at The ASF the original PMC and Committers is often > determined in part by those entities who are bringing the > donation to the Foundation. Incubation is about helping > project communities to work in the “Apache Way”. [2] > OpenOffice.org’s proposal was unique in that the Initial > Committer list was made open for all those who were > interested. I signed up as interested as did some other > members of the Apache POI PMC (we were interested in MSFT > document compatibility). I took it upon myself to help with > Infrastructure like the websites, confluence wikis, and domain names. Absolutely clear for me and absolutely no problem for me! I had already made explicit reference to the ASF rules, and of course the usual procedures also belong to them for me. > > For me, and this may be my personal opinion, one must not > put good agreement above success - you have to find a balance > between both things. > > > >> The influence of enterprises were drastic in the > >> moment they stopped supporting us. > > > > Exactly, and why are no consequences drawn? The problem was > not that the company stopped its support, but that one > company was doing it at absolutely the wrong time and under > the wrong circumstances. > > When IBM withdrew support it did not mean that PMC Members > who were employed by IBM stopped contributing. They stopped > as individuals slowly over time. > > We had one PMC Chair who seriously started a discussion about > shutting down the project. Thank you for this (imho) very important info. Not good that the community was not informed about it, but this info was apparently only known internally. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
hi everyone, Since I joined the Project I have the feeling that people who still feel that they belong to the openoffice.org community do not understand how the ASF operates. I have the feeling Jörgs issues belongs to the same category. We do not have the Issue of a company that dominates OpenOffice. And I say every company has a hard time to do so, because of the people on the project. Lets take a minute, to take a look on the case. In my opinion a dominating company dominates by development power. They can push through development decision on the dev list using their developers. The PMC in the sense of Project domination is not that important. The PMC decides: 1) trademark enforcement of the market name OpenOffice. 2) decides how our funds are spend. (we have less then you think ;) and these funds are a special case left overs from Oracle ) 3) organize funds from the foundation if we need money for a topic. (like the trademark is paid from the funds. 4) It decides who can become a committer and who is invited to the PMC. (this is the most obvious power to lock down a project, and the most obvious.) 5) media / press communication 6) company / privat person inquery / complain address. I think except for 4) all point are not meaning full from a domination perspective. Now the Foundation as such is aware that companies can dominate. So the Foundation has some mechanism to control and act. 1) the board. Once a quarter the report is filed and reviewed by the board. 2) the mentors. When a project becomes a podling in the incubator mentors are supervising the project and help teaching the ASF way. After the incubator ends, the mentors remain in the projects. Our mentors are very silent because of the very experienced people we have. 3) ASF Members. Every ASF Member has full access to the private List. I hope this helps and my view is complete. So Jörg, you are fine with the ASF is our Steward and nothing more as the Steward? We had this issue with the paid resources, where the ASF will not pay for developers because they only Steward the projects. So we still have this topic on building our own community organization which can fills such a role. But this is OT. If we want to discuss this topic, please make a seperate topic. Also for companies or recruiting. Just discuss it in an own topic. All the Best Peter On 20.11.19 12:12, Jörg Schmidt wrote: > > >> -Original Message- >> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 10:14 AM >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org >> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back >> in our PMC and developer circle) >> >> Hello, >> >> Am 20.11.19 um 09:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: >>> Hello Peter, >>> -Original Message- From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:pe...@apache.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:50 AM To: dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle) Hello Jörg, It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you elaborate on this point maybe? >>> First let me say: I don't think it is necessary to find out >> in real time who is active at the moment, it would probably >> be enough to publish it once a month. >>> Why do I want to know who is active? >>> For decisions of the PMC the majority principle applies >> (imho). The majority, however, depends on the votes >> (respectively the opinions) of the people who are currently active. >>> >>> And in the long run: Has no one really thought about the >> principle that no one can be excluded from the PMC and that >> third parties can install majorities there? >>> for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I >> think there is a certain difference between the activity of >> people who only work in the project because they are paid for >> it by companies and people who work in the project out of >> their own interest. >> I do not remember any case, in which a permanent inactive PMC member >> "jumps out of the box" to influence a voting. > I have not mentioned any names (elsewhere) because I do not want to turn > against people, because I don't hold them responsible for what companies have > done. > On the other hand, why is it merit for people if they have only done their > paid job... > > For me, and this may be my personal opinion, one must not put good agreement > above success - you have to find a balance between both things. > >> The influence of enterprises were drastic in the >> moment they stopped supporting us. > Exactly, and why are no consequences drawn? The problem was not that the > company stopped its support, but that one company was doing it at absolutely > the wrong time and under the wrong circumstances. > > Where was the PMC in this situation? Where was the attempt to influence? > Where was the will to discuss things openly
Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
> On Nov 20, 2019, at 3:12 AM, Jörg Schmidt wrote: > > > >> -Original Message- >> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 10:14 AM >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org >> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back >> in our PMC and developer circle) >> >> Hello, >> >> Am 20.11.19 um 09:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: >>> Hello Peter, >>> -Original Message- From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:pe...@apache.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:50 AM To: dev@openoffice.apache.org Subject: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle) Hello Jörg, It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you elaborate on this point maybe? >>> >>> First let me say: I don't think it is necessary to find out >> in real time who is active at the moment, it would probably >> be enough to publish it once a month. >>> >>> Why do I want to know who is active? >>> For decisions of the PMC the majority principle applies >> (imho). The majority, however, depends on the votes >> (respectively the opinions) of the people who are currently active. >>> >>> >>> And in the long run: Has no one really thought about the >> principle that no one can be excluded from the PMC and that >> third parties can install majorities there? >>> >>> for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I >> think there is a certain difference between the activity of >> people who only work in the project because they are paid for >> it by companies and people who work in the project out of >> their own interest. >>> > >> I do not remember any case, in which a permanent inactive PMC member >> "jumps out of the box" to influence a voting. > > I have not mentioned any names (elsewhere) because I do not want to turn > against people, because I don't hold them responsible for what companies have > done. > On the other hand, why is it merit for people if they have only done their > paid job... At the Foundation we expect that everyone working on a project are doing so as individuals and any merit attained is as an individual. [1] In the initial formation of a project at The ASF the original PMC and Committers is often determined in part by those entities who are bringing the donation to the Foundation. Incubation is about helping project communities to work in the “Apache Way”. [2] OpenOffice.org’s proposal was unique in that the Initial Committer list was made open for all those who were interested. I signed up as interested as did some other members of the Apache POI PMC (we were interested in MSFT document compatibility). I took it upon myself to help with Infrastructure like the websites, confluence wikis, and domain names. > > For me, and this may be my personal opinion, one must not put good agreement > above success - you have to find a balance between both things. > >> The influence of enterprises were drastic in the >> moment they stopped supporting us. > > Exactly, and why are no consequences drawn? The problem was not that the > company stopped its support, but that one company was doing it at absolutely > the wrong time and under the wrong circumstances. When IBM withdrew support it did not mean that PMC Members who were employed by IBM stopped contributing. They stopped as individuals slowly over time. We had one PMC Chair who seriously started a discussion about shutting down the project. Yet, we still continue. All as volunteers - as far as we know. > > Where was the PMC in this situation? Where was the attempt to influence? > Where was the will to discuss things openly with the community? Personally I was very busy elsewhere. IMO there was a lot of shock and it took some time for the project to recover and continue producing releases. > > > > > Enough for today, because I feel that any attempt at critical discussion here > is only perceived as disturbing. Not necessarily. It would be a little easier if you started a separate thread ;-) Regards, Dave [1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#hats [2] https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html [3] https://community.apache.org/projectIndependence.html#apache-projects-are-managed-independently > > > > greetings, > Jörg > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
> -Original Message- > From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anw...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de] > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 10:14 AM > To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back > in our PMC and developer circle) > > Hello, > > Am 20.11.19 um 09:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: > > Hello Peter, > > > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:pe...@apache.org] > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:50 AM > >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org > >> Subject: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in > >> our PMC and developer circle) > >> > >> Hello Jörg, > >> > >> > >> It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you > >> elaborate on > >> this point maybe? > > > > First let me say: I don't think it is necessary to find out > in real time who is active at the moment, it would probably > be enough to publish it once a month. > > > > Why do I want to know who is active? > > For decisions of the PMC the majority principle applies > (imho). The majority, however, depends on the votes > (respectively the opinions) of the people who are currently active. > > > > > > And in the long run: Has no one really thought about the > principle that no one can be excluded from the PMC and that > third parties can install majorities there? > > > > for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I > think there is a certain difference between the activity of > people who only work in the project because they are paid for > it by companies and people who work in the project out of > their own interest. > > > I do not remember any case, in which a permanent inactive PMC member > "jumps out of the box" to influence a voting. I have not mentioned any names (elsewhere) because I do not want to turn against people, because I don't hold them responsible for what companies have done. On the other hand, why is it merit for people if they have only done their paid job... For me, and this may be my personal opinion, one must not put good agreement above success - you have to find a balance between both things. > The influence of enterprises were drastic in the > moment they stopped supporting us. Exactly, and why are no consequences drawn? The problem was not that the company stopped its support, but that one company was doing it at absolutely the wrong time and under the wrong circumstances. Where was the PMC in this situation? Where was the attempt to influence? Where was the will to discuss things openly with the community? Enough for today, because I feel that any attempt at critical discussion here is only perceived as disturbing. greetings, Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
Hello, Am 20.11.19 um 09:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt: > Hello Peter, > >> -Original Message- >> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:pe...@apache.org] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:50 AM >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org >> Subject: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in >> our PMC and developer circle) >> >> Hello Jörg, >> >> >> It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you >> elaborate on >> this point maybe? > > First let me say: I don't think it is necessary to find out in real time who > is active at the moment, it would probably be enough to publish it once a > month. > > Why do I want to know who is active? > For decisions of the PMC the majority principle applies (imho). The majority, > however, depends on the votes (respectively the opinions) of the people who > are currently active. > > > And in the long run: Has no one really thought about the principle that no > one can be excluded from the PMC and that third parties can install > majorities there? > > for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I think there is a > certain difference between the activity of people who only work in the > project because they are paid for it by companies and people who work in the > project out of their own interest. > IMO the best way to improve a system is to solve its practical problems. I do not remember any case, in which a permanent inactive PMC member "jumps out of the box" to influence a voting. I do not see any PMC member, which tries to undercut AOO in collaboration with others. IMO the influence of third parties, esp. enterprises is in AOO more negligible than it is in other Apache projects. The influence of enterprises were drastic in the moment they stopped supporting us. And unfortunately I do not know any enterprise, who is willing to support us substantially in future. That is one of our actual problems. So IMO we should focus our energy and resources to solve the practical problems we really have. As an example: Let us reflect, how we can transact the proposals of Patricia to recruit new developers. And another one: Let us reflect, how we get the infrastructure we need to work well. Kind regards Michael signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)
Hello Jörg, It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you elaborate on this point maybe? Cheers, Peter On 19.11.19 21:52, Jörg Schmidt wrote: > > >> -Original Message- >> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:w...@apache.org] >> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 8:24 PM >> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org >> Subject: Re: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle >> >> >> >>> On Nov 19, 2019, at 11:08 AM, Jörg Schmidt >> wrote: >>> Can you please explain to me what "back in our PMC" means? >> Better wording would be “has reengaged in OpenOffice development. > Thank you. That's very interesting. > > Is it at all clear to the PMC members that this was the background to my > proposal, which was strongly rejected some time ago? > > > Your answer today makes one thing clear: > there are PMC members who are currently actively involved in OpenOffice > development and those who are not. > And my whole concern was: Where can I see who is currently active? > > Maybe now it's easier to understand that it wasn't my intention to remove > non-active people from the PMC, but only to clearly mark who is currently > active. > > > And please: it is not enough to look up who is committing code, because we > also have committers who work elsewhere. > > > greetings, > Jörg > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
