[OSM-dev] What is OSM and what isn't?
The discussion on using Cloudmade routing on the OSM website points to a deeper question: What is the OpenStreetMap project and how do we want to present it on openstreetmap.org? When giving talks or generally talking to people about OpenStreetMap one of the questions I hear the most is: Is OpenStreetMap planning to do X? X beeing a routing service or a website where people can upload their hiking trails, photos, whatever or many other things people think can be done with the maps. And I try to explain people that OSM is providing the data and the maps and that its not the goal of OSM to provide every conceivable map or mapping web site or service. Thats the mindset people have gotten into: We wait for Google or Yahoo or Microsoft to come up with the service and thats it. I think we should encourage people to build their own, to build a whole eco-system of different websites and services, not try to get too many things inside the core OSM project. We should make clear what the OSM part in this eco-system is: providing the data. I think we should come up with an idea what the core of the OSM project ist and those things should be on the openstreetmap.org website and maintained by the community in an open fashion. Everything else can be done on different web sites and be linked to. Thats the power of the web. Once we start bringing in other services, where do we stop? There are already hundreds of web sites with OSM based maps, routing services etc. All of them could argue that they want to be on openstreetmap.org. Surely the ski lift map is useful when entering data for ski areas. So I think we should distinguish between the core, the open community project, on the one side and other projects (commercial or non-commercial) which build upon OSM. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site.
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Dermot McNally wrote: Clearly every potential user of OSM is different, but for me, a key benefit when I discovered the project what hey, vector data, that can be used for routing!. If we think that others discovering the project would thing likewise then a prominent path from project home page to a routing engine (and I really couldn't care less whose) would be a Good Thing. As long as it works acceptably well, of course... But isn't this angle one where the open/closed distinction gains weight again? Currently, you can (and I've done this a number of times) tell potential OSM users: Everything on openstreetmap.org is free software and free data - you can build the exact same site for yourself with all its functionality from our database and our svn *). With non-free routing or geocoding services that would stop. If we want OSM to grow and become more successful than it is then we have to get over the idea that the only people who matter are software developers. There are around 12 - 17 million software developers in the world. How many of those developers know how to use SVN? Maybe 1%. How many are FLOSS developers? How many care enough about OSM to learn how to use it? If 1% of software developers care about OSM, which is very optimistic estimate, then we have a total pool of people who could do as you suggest of around 170,000 people. Not very many. How do people discover OSM? Their friend tells them or they find it through a Google search. They take a look at the front page of the site and within 2-5 seconds they make their minds up about it. I don't have the numbers, but I'd guess that we have between a less than 1% conversion rate from unique visitors to OSM to people who sign-up for an account. Imagine if we could increase that rate by 5x. 5x more people sign up for an account, 5x more people mapping, 5x more people submitting patches to JOSM and Potlatch. 5x more people at SOTM, 5x more Foundation members. We really need to think about what is more important to OSM. The most important thing in my view is creating the best free map of the world. To do that we need to encourage more people to join OSM - people who do not know or care what SVN is or why a routing algorithm does its thing. Surely the biggest victory for any open source project is to squash its competitors and completely change the game? Few open source projects have achieved this. In 5 years time, the entire concept of proprietary maps created by guys in vans could be a thing of the past. OpenStreetMap and our way of doing things will have completely wiped the floor with our competitors. We can only get to this point if we stop thinking of ourselves as a small, specialist community and start to think of ourselves as a mainstream movement that caters for the needs of everyone - not just the free software world. Bye Frederik *) And add in fine print if you're willing to devote a few man-months to get to grips with the finer details of Ruby, PHP, Python, PostGIS, Mapnik and others -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 -- -- Nick Black twitter.com/nick_b ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site.
On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 09:03 +0100, Nick Black wrote: Surely the biggest victory for any open source project is to squash its competitors and completely change the game? Few open source projects have achieved this. In 5 years time, the entire concept of proprietary maps created by guys in vans could be a thing of the past. OpenStreetMap and our way of doing things will have completely wiped the floor with our competitors. We can only get to this point if we stop thinking of ourselves as a small, specialist community and start to think of ourselves as a mainstream movement that caters for the needs of everyone - not just the free software world. But still, If you want an *open source* project to squash its competitors and completely change the game Then in my opinion you need to do that with *open source*. So while I do agree with routing being a good showcase and attraction to the project, I think this project is only succeeding in it's goals because of the open source nature, and we need to protect that. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] What is OSM and what isn't?
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:28:44AM +0200, Chris-Hein Lunkhusen wrote: I also have some suggestions for the homepage: It's annoying that the Search-Box is outside of the browser window so you have to scroll (at least on my 1280x800 screen). I would propose the following order of boxes: - Logo (for sure on top) - Search Box - Links (Wiki, News, ...) - Current stuff (like the advertisment for the SOTM) - Info about the project - Information about hosting Maybe the Boxes can be a little bit smaller (smaller text for the links, wider text), so at least the first lines about the Infos about the project can be seen on normal screens. And I try to explain people that OSM is providing the data and the maps and that its not the goal of OSM to provide every conceivable map or mapping web site or service. So I think at least some kind of Link to a routing app would be usefull on the start page, so that beginners can see the full potential behind OSM Yes, that's a good idea. People hear the term OpenStreetMap (for sure there's a lot in the news), they go to the homepage - and what do they see? A simple map (nothing wrong with it) ... how should they know what other application there are available? I just tried to find other applications from the Homepage: - Help Wiki - Show me the map (that's where I'm coming from) - Beginners' Guide (I don't want to create data, I want to use it) - Map Making (I told you) - Development (Hey! I can use a Webbrowser) - FAQs (Now we are getting somewhere - but still it's about Where it comes from, Editing, *yawn*) - Press (Still there? wow) - Image of the Week (This is _really_ helpful) - News Blog - Discount for Where 2.0, Call for SOTM, API 0.6 ... nothing interesting for someone who just heard about OSM - Shop ... no applications - Map Key ... not helping So ... where are the feature-rich applications like routing, opencyclemap, ...? No wonder people don't discover the potential ... In my opionion we should produce a page with featured applications, with a link from the mainpage (before Help Wiki i would propose). A good example might be the OpenID-page: - One page like[1], with links to featured applications. - One application where People can enter their applications themselves with screenshots, descriptions and the possibility of others to vote (to promote applications) and leave comments. [1] http://openid.net/get/ [2] http://openiddirectory.com/ greetings, Stephan PS: It was high time for my rant about the homepage ;) -- Seid unbequem, seid Sand, nicht Öl im Getriebe der Welt! - Günther Eich ,-. | Stephan Plepelits, | | Technische Universität Wien -Studium Informatik Raumplanung | | openstreetbrowser.org couchsurfing.com tubasis.at bl.mud.at | | sk...@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at - My Blog: http://plepe.at | `-' ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] What is OSM and what isn't?
Stephan Plepelits wrote: In my opionion we should produce a page with featured applications, with a link from the mainpage (before Help Wiki i would propose). Last year I registered openstreetmapdirectory.org with the intention of doing exactly that - a site cataloguing sites and companies that work with OSM data. I haven't had chance to do anything on it but would be delighted to work with others who would find such an idea interesting. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/What-is-OSM-and-what-isn%27t--tp23311490p23313558.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] What is OSM and what isn't?
On 30 Apr 2009, at 10:53, Stephan Plepelits wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:28:44AM +0200, Chris-Hein Lunkhusen wrote: I also have some suggestions for the homepage: It's annoying that the Search-Box is outside of the browser window so you have to scroll (at least on my 1280x800 screen). The reason why the search is not more prominent is because it can just fall over when there are a few queries at the same time. This is one of the topics for the London Hack Weekend in a months time: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/London_Hack_Weekend Shaun ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site.
Nick Black wrote: Sent: 30 April 2009 9:04 AM To: Frederik Ramm Cc: dev@openstreetmap.org; Chris-Hein Lunkhusen; Tom Hughes Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site. On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Dermot McNally wrote: Clearly every potential user of OSM is different, but for me, a key benefit when I discovered the project what hey, vector data, that can be used for routing!. If we think that others discovering the project would thing likewise then a prominent path from project home page to a routing engine (and I really couldn't care less whose) would be a Good Thing. As long as it works acceptably well, of course... But isn't this angle one where the open/closed distinction gains weight again? Currently, you can (and I've done this a number of times) tell potential OSM users: Everything on openstreetmap.org is free software and free data - you can build the exact same site for yourself with all its functionality from our database and our svn *). With non-free routing or geocoding services that would stop. If we want OSM to grow and become more successful than it is then we have to get over the idea that the only people who matter are software developers. There are around 12 - 17 million software developers in the world. How many of those developers know how to use SVN? Maybe 1%. How many are FLOSS developers? How many care enough about OSM to learn how to use it? If 1% of software developers care about OSM, which is very optimistic estimate, then we have a total pool of people who could do as you suggest of around 170,000 people. Not very many. How do people discover OSM? Their friend tells them or they find it through a Google search. They take a look at the front page of the site and within 2-5 seconds they make their minds up about it. I don't have the numbers, but I'd guess that we have between a less than 1% conversion rate from unique visitors to OSM to people who sign-up for an account. Imagine if we could increase that rate by 5x. 5x more people sign up for an account, 5x more people mapping, 5x more people submitting patches to JOSM and Potlatch. 5x more people at SOTM, 5x more Foundation members. We really need to think about what is more important to OSM. The most important thing in my view is creating the best free map of the world. To do that we need to encourage more people to join OSM - people who do not know or care what SVN is or why a routing algorithm does its thing. Surely the biggest victory for any open source project is to squash its competitors and completely change the game? Few open source projects have achieved this. In 5 years time, the entire concept of proprietary maps created by guys in vans could be a thing of the past. OpenStreetMap and our way of doing things will have completely wiped the floor with our competitors. We can only get to this point if we stop thinking of ourselves as a small, specialist community and start to think of ourselves as a mainstream movement that caters for the needs of everyone - not just the free software world. I feel this somewhat misses the point. Openstreetmap is about the data and nothing else. No data, no interest in OSM, huge data, huge interest in OSM. That interest will come automatically if we have the best data set bar none. From that point of view it doesnt matter at all what software is used to make use of the data, but as an open source project we should at least encourage and promote any open source software that is found to be useful and relevant. On the other side of the equation I dont see it as OSM's place to go promoting commercial products, even if they are good. We can list them on the wiki etc, but surely it is for those commercial companies to do their own promotion of OSM related products, not OSM. As for thinking we are a small specialised community I stopped thinking that way many months ago. We are THE big player here, but is in data, not software. OSM is not a software development project. Too many eggs in the basket if we were. Lets stick to what we know, which is collecting and maintaining a great dataset. Cheers Andy Bye Frederik *) And add in fine print if you're willing to devote a few man- months to get to grips with the finer details of Ruby, PHP, Python, PostGIS, Mapnik and others -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 -- -- Nick Black twitter.com/nick_b ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] What is OSM and what isn't?
Hi Jochen, And I try to explain people that OSM is providing the data and the maps and that its not the goal of OSM to provide every conceivable map or mapping web site or service. When I discovered OSM and I found no Routing capabilities on osm.org, I thought: Oh what bad they have no routing. I was very surprised when I discovered openrouteservice some weeks later... ;-) So I think at least some kind of Link to a routing app would be usefull on the start page, so that beginners can see the full potential behind OSM Chris ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site.
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Sander Hoentjen san...@hoentjen.euwrote: On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 09:03 +0100, Nick Black wrote: Surely the biggest victory for any open source project is to squash its competitors and completely change the game? Few open source projects have achieved this. In 5 years time, the entire concept of proprietary maps created by guys in vans could be a thing of the past. OpenStreetMap and our way of doing things will have completely wiped the floor with our competitors. We can only get to this point if we stop thinking of ourselves as a small, specialist community and start to think of ourselves as a mainstream movement that caters for the needs of everyone - not just the free software world. But still, If you want an *open source* project to squash its competitors and completely change the game Then in my opinion you need to do that with *open source*. You have to see that there's a dividing line though. On one side of the line - we use Yahoo! imagery that is powered by proprietary software. And we also use handheld GPS units that are powered by proprietary software. It would be insane to turn away Yahoo or ban contributions from Garmin units because the firmware is not open source. On the other side of the line there is the server software that gets better because its open source - if it was not open source, people might not contribute to the code. We have to be pragmatic when we assert opinions and ideals and ask ourselves if what we are considering will help or hinder OSM in the long run. Do we really think that having routing from a non-open source will hurt OSM more than it will benefit OSM? So while I do agree with routing being a good showcase and attraction to the project, I think this project is only succeeding in it's goals because of the open source nature, and we need to protect that. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev -- -- Nick Black twitter.com/nick_b ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site.
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com wrote: Nick Black wrote: Sent: 30 April 2009 9:04 AM To: Frederik Ramm Cc: dev@openstreetmap.org; Chris-Hein Lunkhusen; Tom Hughes Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site. On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Dermot McNally wrote: Clearly every potential user of OSM is different, but for me, a key benefit when I discovered the project what hey, vector data, that can be used for routing!. If we think that others discovering the project would thing likewise then a prominent path from project home page to a routing engine (and I really couldn't care less whose) would be a Good Thing. As long as it works acceptably well, of course... But isn't this angle one where the open/closed distinction gains weight again? Currently, you can (and I've done this a number of times) tell potential OSM users: Everything on openstreetmap.org is free software and free data - you can build the exact same site for yourself with all its functionality from our database and our svn *). With non-free routing or geocoding services that would stop. If we want OSM to grow and become more successful than it is then we have to get over the idea that the only people who matter are software developers. There are around 12 - 17 million software developers in the world. How many of those developers know how to use SVN? Maybe 1%. How many are FLOSS developers? How many care enough about OSM to learn how to use it? If 1% of software developers care about OSM, which is very optimistic estimate, then we have a total pool of people who could do as you suggest of around 170,000 people. Not very many. How do people discover OSM? Their friend tells them or they find it through a Google search. They take a look at the front page of the site and within 2-5 seconds they make their minds up about it. I don't have the numbers, but I'd guess that we have between a less than 1% conversion rate from unique visitors to OSM to people who sign-up for an account. Imagine if we could increase that rate by 5x. 5x more people sign up for an account, 5x more people mapping, 5x more people submitting patches to JOSM and Potlatch. 5x more people at SOTM, 5x more Foundation members. We really need to think about what is more important to OSM. The most important thing in my view is creating the best free map of the world. To do that we need to encourage more people to join OSM - people who do not know or care what SVN is or why a routing algorithm does its thing. Surely the biggest victory for any open source project is to squash its competitors and completely change the game? Few open source projects have achieved this. In 5 years time, the entire concept of proprietary maps created by guys in vans could be a thing of the past. OpenStreetMap and our way of doing things will have completely wiped the floor with our competitors. We can only get to this point if we stop thinking of ourselves as a small, specialist community and start to think of ourselves as a mainstream movement that caters for the needs of everyone - not just the free software world. I feel this somewhat misses the point. Openstreetmap is about the data and nothing else. No data, no interest in OSM, huge data, huge interest in OSM. That interest will come automatically if we have the best data set bar none. OK, but there's a massive chicken and a bigger egg here. The point is very much that OSM should be doing everything we can to encourage a broad range of people to contribute to the map and be part of the community. What really worries me is an attitude that the only people who deserve the more advanced map editing tools that sit in OSM's SVN are people who have the technical ability to use them. I don't think any of us want to create a project that is only accessible by the technical elite. From that point of view it doesn’t matter at all what software is used to make use of the data, but as an open source project we should at least encourage and promote any open source software that is found to be useful and relevant. On the other side of the equation I don’t see it as OSM's place to go promoting commercial products, even if they are good. We can list them on the wiki etc, but surely it is for those commercial companies to do their own promotion of OSM related products, not OSM. As for thinking we are a small specialised community I stopped thinking that way many months ago. We are THE big player here, but is in data, not software. OSM is not a software development project. Too many eggs in the basket if we were. Lets stick to what we know, which is collecting and maintaining a great
Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site.
Nick Black [mailto:nickbla...@gmail.com] wrote: Sent: 30 April 2009 1:48 PM To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) Cc: Frederik Ramm; dev@openstreetmap.org; Chris-Hein Lunkhusen; Tom Hughes Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site. On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com wrote: Nick Black wrote: Sent: 30 April 2009 9:04 AM To: Frederik Ramm Cc: dev@openstreetmap.org; Chris-Hein Lunkhusen; Tom Hughes Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site. On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Dermot McNally wrote: Clearly every potential user of OSM is different, but for me, a key benefit when I discovered the project what hey, vector data, that can be used for routing!. If we think that others discovering the project would thing likewise then a prominent path from project home page to a routing engine (and I really couldn't care less whose) would be a Good Thing. As long as it works acceptably well, of course... But isn't this angle one where the open/closed distinction gains weight again? Currently, you can (and I've done this a number of times) tell potential OSM users: Everything on openstreetmap.org is free software and free data - you can build the exact same site for yourself with all its functionality from our database and our svn *). With non-free routing or geocoding services that would stop. If we want OSM to grow and become more successful than it is then we have to get over the idea that the only people who matter are software developers. There are around 12 - 17 million software developers in the world. How many of those developers know how to use SVN? Maybe 1%. How many are FLOSS developers? How many care enough about OSM to learn how to use it? If 1% of software developers care about OSM, which is very optimistic estimate, then we have a total pool of people who could do as you suggest of around 170,000 people. Not very many. How do people discover OSM? Their friend tells them or they find it through a Google search. They take a look at the front page of the site and within 2-5 seconds they make their minds up about it. I don't have the numbers, but I'd guess that we have between a less than 1% conversion rate from unique visitors to OSM to people who sign-up for an account. Imagine if we could increase that rate by 5x. 5x more people sign up for an account, 5x more people mapping, 5x more people submitting patches to JOSM and Potlatch. 5x more people at SOTM, 5x more Foundation members. We really need to think about what is more important to OSM. The most important thing in my view is creating the best free map of the world. To do that we need to encourage more people to join OSM - people who do not know or care what SVN is or why a routing algorithm does its thing. Surely the biggest victory for any open source project is to squash its competitors and completely change the game? Few open source projects have achieved this. In 5 years time, the entire concept of proprietary maps created by guys in vans could be a thing of the past. OpenStreetMap and our way of doing things will have completely wiped the floor with our competitors. We can only get to this point if we stop thinking of ourselves as a small, specialist community and start to think of ourselves as a mainstream movement that caters for the needs of everyone - not just the free software world. I feel this somewhat misses the point. Openstreetmap is about the data and nothing else. No data, no interest in OSM, huge data, huge interest in OSM. That interest will come automatically if we have the best data set bar none. OK, but there's a massive chicken and a bigger egg here. The point is very much that OSM should be doing everything we can to encourage a broad range of people to contribute to the map and be part of the community. What really worries me is an attitude that the only people who deserve the more advanced map editing tools that sit in OSM's SVN are people who have the technical ability to use them. I don't think any of us want to create a project that is only accessible by the technical elite. Yes, and I'll jump with joy if someone creates a very straightforward editor that just enables a person to
Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site.
Nick Black wrote: Do we really think that having routing from a non-open source will hurt OSM more than it will benefit OSM? ...since there is an open source initiative build from the community, then it will hurt that alternative by going closed. Stefan ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
[OSM-dev] User preference for editor
[moved from private mail, but more relevant to the list than to me personally] Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: I was wondering whether you are still planning to add JOSM to the EDIT-Menu in Potlatch (remember? We wrote about it some time ago on the list). I (and certainly some other people) would really appreciate it. For those who (like me) needed to remember what this is about: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2009-March/014533.html Doing this shouldn't be done in Potlatch. Potlatch is simply the Flash editing application that appears within the confines of the map window. The Edit tab itself, for example, isn't actually in Potlatch. :) Instead, it should be a setting in your user preferences: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/your_id/account using the existing preferences object in Rails. The setting could be a URL which, if set, would be invoked when you clicked 'Edit'. (If not set or blank, Potlatch would be invoked as per usual.) There would be characters that would be replaced with lat, long and zoom. Something like: http://myfunkyeditor.com/?lat=$latlon=$lonzoom=$zoom It's not something that needs to be, or indeed should be, done within Potlatch the application. So you needn't be asking me to do it - if nothing else I don't really have the time nor the knowledge of the user preferences object. Rather, it should be done within the main Rails port site and any number of people can do that - or, of course, you can do it yourself. Failing that, submit a trac ticket. cheers Richard ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] User preference for editor
2009/4/30 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: [moved from private mail, but more relevant to the list than to me personally] Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: I was wondering whether you are still planning to add JOSM to the EDIT-Menu in Potlatch (remember? We wrote about it some time ago on the list). I (and certainly some other people) would really appreciate it. For those who (like me) needed to remember what this is about: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2009-March/014533.html Instead, it should be a setting in your user preferences: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/your_id/account IMHO it would be much nicer to choose everytime you click Edit for 2 reasons: - users tend to use both editors because some features are unique (like undelete in potlatch) - this might depend on from which machine you are clicking it (if you're in an internetcafe you usually won't be able to use JOSM) It's not something that needs to be, or indeed should be, done within Potlatch the application. So you needn't be asking me to do it - if nothing else I don't really have the time nor the knowledge of the user preferences object. well, I know its not a Potlatch-Issue but I actually was referring to a private message (as follow-up to the cited thread) you sent me on March 30: looking again at the sequence (on the page after edit) and your post, I got this idea: could you put another grey box under start practise help (I have them in German, they might be slightly different in English) called JOSM, Text: Open this area in JOSM (requires JOSM with remote plugin to be installed and running). you: That's a really good idea. There's sometimes another button in there (if you've clicked 'edit' next to a GPX track), called 'Track', which converts the track into a way - so I'm not sure whether there'll be enough space for it. If there is I'll add it soon; if not, I'll add it in Potlatch 2.0 which will have a different screen layout anyway. number of people can do that - or, of course, you can do it yourself. Failing that, submit a trac ticket. done cheers, Martin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] User preference for editor
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: IMHO it would be much nicer to choose everytime you click Edit for 2 reasons: - users tend to use both editors because some features are unique (like undelete in potlatch) - this might depend on from which machine you are clicking it (if you're in an internetcafe you usually won't be able to use JOSM) Interesting point. you: That's a really good idea. There's sometimes another button in there (if you've clicked 'edit' next to a GPX track), called 'Track', which converts the track into a way - so I'm not sure whether there'll be enough space for it. If there is I'll add it soon; if not, I'll add it in Potlatch 2.0 which will have a different screen layout anyway. Heh. I do have a lousy memory, don't I? :) Will look at it. cheers Richard ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] User preference for editor
Richard Fairhurst wrote: Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: IMHO it would be much nicer to choose everytime you click Edit for 2 reasons: - users tend to use both editors because some features are unique (like undelete in potlatch) - this might depend on from which machine you are clicking it (if you're in an internetcafe you usually won't be able to use JOSM) Interesting point. But insane for the majority of users - that argument is basically saying that because a handful of users might want to choose on a case by case basis everybody should be forced to click through some menu each time. Adding the ability to set an alternate default editor is certainly reasonable, though at the moment the target audience for that is likely to be pretty small as the only real alternative at the moment is JOSM with the remote control plugin which will present a pretty ugly user interface that will fail in a rather messy way if you don't have JOSM running with the remote control plugin enabled. Beyond that making one of the possible options ask me each time is not unreasonable, though the main reason for needing it is precisely because of the ugliness of the JOSM remote control solution. Obviously if there were multiple competing web embedded editors then it would be a whole different story. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] User preference for editor
Tom Hughes wrote: Richard Fairhurst wrote: Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: IMHO it would be much nicer to choose everytime you click Edit for 2 reasons: - users tend to use both editors because some features are unique (like undelete in potlatch) - this might depend on from which machine you are clicking it (if you're in an internetcafe you usually won't be able to use JOSM) Interesting point. But insane for the majority of users - that argument is basically saying that because a handful of users might want to choose on a case by case basis everybody should be forced to click through some menu each time. Oh, absolutely. How I can see it working is that Potlatch could have a user pref saying Offer alternate editor? with a URL as previously described, and if you set that pref, then Potlatch would have a button when you started offering the ability to launch that. But yes, adding a Please first choose your editor dialogue would be nuts, UI-wise. cheers Richard ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] User preference for editor
Adding the ability to set an alternate default editor is certainly reasonable, though at the moment the target audience for that is likely to be pretty small as the only real alternative at the moment is JOSM with the remote control plugin which will present a pretty ugly user interface that will fail in a rather messy way if you don't have JOSM running with the remote control plugin enabled. What about a custom mime type for a file containing pertinent info (i.e. the bbox, I guess)? or a custom protocol (osm://)? Just thinking aloud... - Chris - ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] User preference for editor
2009/4/30 Chris Browet c...@semperpax.com: Adding the ability to set an alternate default editor is certainly reasonable, though at the moment the target audience for that is likely to be pretty small as the only real alternative at the moment is JOSM with the remote control plugin which will present a pretty ugly user interface that will fail in a rather messy way if you don't have JOSM running with the remote control plugin enabled. What about a custom mime type for a file containing pertinent info (i.e. the bbox, I guess)? or a custom protocol (osm://)? Just thinking aloud... - Chris - Others have stated before that the mime type option is really the only sane one for this sort of thing, rather than the awful localhost URIs the the JOSM remote control uses presently. The other option of a custom protocol will soon become a pain when using/configuring it with multiple browsers. -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site.
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com wrote: Nick Black [mailto:nickbla...@gmail.com] wrote: Sent: 30 April 2009 1:48 PM To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) Cc: Frederik Ramm; dev@openstreetmap.org; Chris-Hein Lunkhusen; Tom Hughes Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site. On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com wrote: Nick Black wrote: Sent: 30 April 2009 9:04 AM To: Frederik Ramm Cc: dev@openstreetmap.org; Chris-Hein Lunkhusen; Tom Hughes Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site. On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Dermot McNally wrote: Clearly every potential user of OSM is different, but for me, a key benefit when I discovered the project what hey, vector data, that can be used for routing!. If we think that others discovering the project would thing likewise then a prominent path from project home page to a routing engine (and I really couldn't care less whose) would be a Good Thing. As long as it works acceptably well, of course... But isn't this angle one where the open/closed distinction gains weight again? Currently, you can (and I've done this a number of times) tell potential OSM users: Everything on openstreetmap.org is free software and free data - you can build the exact same site for yourself with all its functionality from our database and our svn *). With non-free routing or geocoding services that would stop. If we want OSM to grow and become more successful than it is then we have to get over the idea that the only people who matter are software developers. There are around 12 - 17 million software developers in the world. How many of those developers know how to use SVN? Maybe 1%. How many are FLOSS developers? How many care enough about OSM to learn how to use it? If 1% of software developers care about OSM, which is very optimistic estimate, then we have a total pool of people who could do as you suggest of around 170,000 people. Not very many. How do people discover OSM? Their friend tells them or they find it through a Google search. They take a look at the front page of the site and within 2-5 seconds they make their minds up about it. I don't have the numbers, but I'd guess that we have between a less than 1% conversion rate from unique visitors to OSM to people who sign-up for an account. Imagine if we could increase that rate by 5x. 5x more people sign up for an account, 5x more people mapping, 5x more people submitting patches to JOSM and Potlatch. 5x more people at SOTM, 5x more Foundation members. We really need to think about what is more important to OSM. The most important thing in my view is creating the best free map of the world. To do that we need to encourage more people to join OSM - people who do not know or care what SVN is or why a routing algorithm does its thing. Surely the biggest victory for any open source project is to squash its competitors and completely change the game? Few open source projects have achieved this. In 5 years time, the entire concept of proprietary maps created by guys in vans could be a thing of the past. OpenStreetMap and our way of doing things will have completely wiped the floor with our competitors. We can only get to this point if we stop thinking of ourselves as a small, specialist community and start to think of ourselves as a mainstream movement that caters for the needs of everyone - not just the free software world. I feel this somewhat misses the point. Openstreetmap is about the data and nothing else. No data, no interest in OSM, huge data, huge interest in OSM. That interest will come automatically if we have the best data set bar none. OK, but there's a massive chicken and a bigger egg here. The point is very much that OSM should be doing everything we can to encourage a broad range of people to contribute to the map and be part of the community. What really worries me is an attitude that the only people who deserve the more advanced map editing tools that sit in OSM's SVN are
Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site.
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Stefan de Konink ste...@konink.de wrote: Nick Black wrote: Do we really think that having routing from a non-open source will hurt OSM more than it will benefit OSM? ...since there is an open source initiative build from the community, then it will hurt that alternative by going closed. I doubt it. I reckon the different open source efforts would focus on specialist routing - like making great bicycle routes that take into account elevation for example, which CloudMade's routing is not specialized at. Stefan -- -- Nick Black twitter.com/nick_b ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] User preference for editor
Hi, Tom Hughes wrote: as the only real alternative at the moment is JOSM with the remote control plugin which will present a pretty ugly user interface that will fail in a rather messy way if you don't have JOSM running with the remote control plugin enabled. It is easy to dismiss as ugly, but for many this messy remote control thing is a huge step forward compared to open download dialog and paste an openstreetmap.org URL there that was the norm in pre-remote-control times. The JOSM team will happily listen to suggestions for alternative solutions. We won't even require that you code them yourself although if you have code contributions that's of course even better. JOSM is designed to be able to run as an applet but this has never been widely pursued for reasons unknown to me; maybe the reason was that the API did not have a good user preference mechanism back then and with no write access to the local disk it was difficult to make JOSM usable. With more granular preferences API, maybe that avenue can be tried out again? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] User preference for editor
Frederik Ramm wrote: with no write access to the local disk it was difficult to make JOSM usable I think your problems are more fundamental than that. runs away very fast cheers Richard ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Cloudmade routing for OSM rails_port site.
Hi, i expanded the wikipage [1] for route services a bit to give everyone a better overview of the different advantages of the routing services. It is still not complete, so please help and add information and services. With this matrix it is easier to discuss which routing service would be the best for the osm.org website. Personally i think a good routeservice is important, because it shows the visitor the possibilitys of our data. I would prefer a open-source solution. Jonas [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Routing/OnlineRouters ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] What is OSM and what isn't?
2009/4/30 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: Stephan Plepelits wrote: In my opionion we should produce a page with featured applications, with a link from the mainpage (before Help Wiki i would propose). Last year I registered openstreetmapdirectory.org with the intention of doing exactly that - a site cataloguing sites and companies that work with OSM data. I haven't had chance to do anything on it but would be delighted to work with others who would find such an idea interesting. In the meantime, http://openstreetmapdirectory.org could link to these sites: http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/?page=mainlang=en http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM_based_Services Cheers Colin ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Slippy Map Elevation Overlay
It's computationally a bit more expensive on the server, but you can have a tile server that makes the white areas of regular maps transparent and overlays them on top of relief maps (i.e. opposite order to what you tried). It's trivial PHP/GD code, and uses less CPU on the client-side than having semitransparent overlays (which can be *very* slow), but only works when the road map doesn't contain antialiased edges. update: I found an example implementation, but it seems to be overlaying something with antialiased roads :( http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~ojw/relief/ On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Graham Jones (Physics) grahamjo...@physics.org wrote: I have had a quick go at http://maps.webhop.net/srtm.html. It sort of works - the high ground stands out, and you can see the shape of the ground, and you can switch the overlay off and on. It does not work that well as an overlay though because it is not really transparent enough. I find that sometimes the transparency works quite well and you can see the map underneath, and others it is practically opaque. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
[OSM-dev] uploading GPX via the API
Dear All, Has the GPX upload method in the API been disabled in 0.6? Shame if it has, as personally I found it convenient to upload GPX files in JOSM at the touch of a button using the DirectUpload plugin. Having looked at the specs for 0.5 and 0.6 versions of the API, it seems the POST method for a GPX file has been disabled, but I can't find anything to suggest why. Possibly because it was rather too easy to upload duplicate copies of the same GPX file, but could this not be controlled in another way? Any ideas? Steve ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] uploading GPX via the API
You can still POST the GPX traces to the API. The problem is that the JOSM GPX upload plugin hasn't been updated to use 0.6 for the version in the URL. It would be much better if it automatically got the API version number. Shaun On 30 Apr 2009, at 23:11, S Knox wrote: Dear All, Has the GPX upload method in the API been disabled in 0.6? Shame if it has, as personally I found it convenient to upload GPX files in JOSM at the touch of a button using the DirectUpload plugin. Having looked at the specs for 0.5 and 0.6 versions of the API, it seems the POST method for a GPX file has been disabled, but I can't find anything to suggest why. Possibly because it was rather too easy to upload duplicate copies of the same GPX file, but could this not be controlled in another way? Any ideas? Steve ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] uploading GPX via the API
Frederik, Yes I thought that when I looked at the code, but when I couldn't see it in the API reference I assumed it had been removed. Anyway it works fine now. Thanks Steve From: Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org To: S Knox roxyk...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: dev@openstreetmap.org Sent: Thursday, 30 April, 2009 23:33:43 Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] uploading GPX via the API Hi, Has the GPX upload method in the API been disabled in 0.6? Shame if it has There is nothing in the code to suggest that it has. Having looked at the specs for 0.5 and 0.6 versions of the API, it seems the POST method for a GPX file has been disabled That must be an omission on the part of the writer(s) of the Wiki documentation then. I have a hunch that the following line of code in the DirectUpload source... private static final String API_VERSION = 0.5; ... might have been responsible for the malfunction ;-) fixed and rebuilt; try and update your plugins from within JOSM (might take a few minutes until the plugin list catches the new version number) and report whether it works now! Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] User preference for editor
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 05:06:39PM +0100, Thomas Wood wrote: 2009/4/30 Chris Browet c...@semperpax.com: What about a custom mime type for a file containing pertinent info (i.e. the bbox, I guess)? Others have stated before that the mime type option is really the only sane one for this sort of thing, rather than the awful localhost URIs the the JOSM remote control uses presently. The other option of a custom protocol will soon become a pain when using/configuring it with multiple browsers. I tested putting a file containing OSM data on a web server and serving with MIME type ‘application/x-openstreetmap+xml’. My browser (Iceweasel, in this case) predictably didn’t know how to handle it and asked me whether to open it (and what with) or download it. I already have a single executable wrapper for JOSM, so it was a simple case of selecting that and the file was downloaded and opened in JOSM. This isn’t quite the same as giving JOSM a bounding box to download, but it works, and doesn’t really make a difference. JOSM can take filenames, URIs and bounding boxes on the command‐line. With the above method, the remotecontrol plugin is not even needed. Granted, I’m not your average user, it required some prior setup, but that’s more because of the way JOSM is packaged and distributed, and any nice packages that create all the nice shiny wrapper scripts, shortcuts, file type handlers, etc are vastly outdated. Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] uploading GPX via the API
Hi, S Knox wrote: Yes I thought that when I looked at the code, but when I couldn't see it in the API reference I assumed it had been removed. Anyway it works fine now. Good. The authority on what is in the API and what is not is not the reference documentation, but the routes.rb file of the Rails implementation: http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/sites/rails_port/config/routes.rb Anything you don't see in there does not work. Anything you do see in there should work. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
[OSM-dev] xapi status?
Hello all - I'm trying to ping the xapi.openstreetmap.org service for: http://xapi.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/*[amenity=hotel][bbox=-71.089,42.359,-71.087,42.361] or perhaps less ambitious: http://xapi.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/*[building=yes][bbox=-71.089,42.359,-71.087,42.361] I'm not getting a response - rather, i'm getting a blank page. Am I making a grievous error or is the xapi server not running pending the 0.6 upgrade? Platform status says Currently serving data as at 0.5 cut-off. 0.6 service will start shortly. Thanks in advance - Jeff ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] What is OSM and what isn't?
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 08:22:42PM +0200, Colin Marquardt wrote: 2009/4/30 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: Stephan Plepelits wrote: In my opionion we should produce a page with featured applications, with a link from the mainpage (before Help Wiki i would propose). Last year I registered openstreetmapdirectory.org with the intention of doing exactly that - a site cataloguing sites and companies that work with OSM data. I haven't had chance to do anything on it but would be delighted to work with others who would find such an idea interesting. In the meantime, http://openstreetmapdirectory.org could link to these sites: http://osmtools.de/osmlinks/?page=mainlang=en http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM_based_Services Wow, I didn't know them (and I'm active for quite some time). Why not link from the mainpage to one of these sites (with a link called Applications or Funky Stuff or See how OSM rocks! or something like this)? I prefer the second link for some reasons: - Everybody can edit the Wiki - There's a short description of the service - It's hosted by OSM, which is dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free geospatial data (OSM Foundation) greetings, Stephan -- Seid unbequem, seid Sand, nicht Öl im Getriebe der Welt! - Günther Eich ,-. | Stephan Plepelits, | | Technische Universität Wien -Studium Informatik Raumplanung | | openstreetbrowser.org couchsurfing.com tubasis.at bl.mud.at | | sk...@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at - My Blog: http://plepe.at | `-' ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [josm-dev] Combine and Merge
Greg Troxel writes: I don't actually care which node controls the resulting location, but it seems obvious the first one added to the selection should be it. Yup. The nodes seem to get sorted numerically by id. That's correct for display purposes, but not for the purpose of choosing the code to hold the location. I'll take a look at it. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Cloudmade supports http://openstreetmap.org/ 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] [OSM-dev] uploading GPX via the API
You can still POST the GPX traces to the API. The problem is that the JOSM GPX upload plugin hasn't been updated to use 0.6 for the version in the URL. It would be much better if it automatically got the API version number. Shaun On 30 Apr 2009, at 23:11, S Knox wrote: Dear All, Has the GPX upload method in the API been disabled in 0.6? Shame if it has, as personally I found it convenient to upload GPX files in JOSM at the touch of a button using the DirectUpload plugin. Having looked at the specs for 0.5 and 0.6 versions of the API, it seems the POST method for a GPX file has been disabled, but I can't find anything to suggest why. Possibly because it was rather too easy to upload duplicate copies of the same GPX file, but could this not be controlled in another way? Any ideas? Steve ___ dev mailing list d...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
