Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Jo]

I find it strange to see many people arguing that there should be a

> similarity between street signs and the colour used on the map. Germany,
>> for example, uses blue motorway signs exclusively,
>>
>
> I'm not sure if I read this right, but the Netherlands, Belgium and France
> also use blue signs to indicate motorways.
>
> Belgium uses green signs for motorways. On maps I always saw orange/yellow
with two red bands. I guess I only look at Michelin's maps before...

 I had gotten used to the odd 'UK' colour scheme. I guess we'll get used to
this new colour scheme as well, eventually.

Polyglot
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Re: [josm-dev] Translation discussions

[Holger Mappt]

It's more the admin that wants to set up a new system :) My impression 
is that most translators are not JOSM developers. That might be one 
reason why there is nearly no feedback. You need a copy of the source 
code tree to find the SVN revision a string was committed in. In the 
commit message is the link to the ticked where the feedback should go to 
(at least in my opinion). That's just too complicated for a typical 
translator.


For me any system with more support for communication between 
translators and an option to set a "needs review" flag for the original 
English string will do. Launchpad (and probably other major platforms) 
have an active community that will translate just any string. This will 
not happen if we move to something private/exotic. Good point Simon.


It's a pity that Launchpad needs forever to fix obvious bugs or 
implement helpful features. An other feature that is missing in 
Launchpad is fuzzy search for suggestions. Any tiny change in the source 
string invalidates all translations. That's why I would like to have 
that "source needs review" flag. A string marked with that flag is 
subject to change, it should not be translated until the issue is resolved.


Regards,
Holger


On 2015-11-01 at 09:16 +0100 Simon Poole wrote:


If  the JOSM devs really want to move away from launchpad, surely the
choice should be between an existing service (transifex and others) or
running (and potentially improving if there are missing features) an
existing system (for example Pootle) and not wasting effort on yet
another ..

Simon

Am 31.10.2015 um 17:02 schrieb Vincent Privat:

This is something clearly missing. It is a 10-year old Launchpad bug:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/25

2015-10-20 11:21 GMT+02:00 Dirk Stöcker :


On Sun, 18 Oct 2015, Holger Mappt wrote:

would be good, I think Transifex supports that. Dirk, do you still work on

a Trac based system? Will it support translation discussions? To be able to
discuss the source string would be good too.


A little. It's still my goal. I hope I have some time for this in the
holidays end of the year.

same issue? Should we change more source strings to improve the

translation process? Or is it good as it is?


Clearly a YES, as currently nearly no feedback goes into the source
strings :-)

Ciao




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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Simon Poole]

Am 02.11.2015 um 10:03 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
>
> +1, especially tertiary roads now tend to merge into blobs, e.g. here: 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/41.85901/12.49464
>
>
-1 given that you can always find specific situations in which a one
size fits all rendering fails, in the previous style there are tons of
while blobs made out of residential class roads, didn't stop anybody
from using the map.



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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-11-02 10:33 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole :

> Which
> interesting enough however doesn't use every imaginable colour for their
> road network either
>
> https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/osmaps/#53.00818632749056,-1.4402046835289466
> and essentially only differentiates between three road types.
>



and creates misleading / very hard to read situations like this (confusion
motorway/rivers):
[image: Inline-Bild 1]

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Maarten Deen]

On 2015-11-01 18:09, Amaroussi (OpenStreetMap) wrote:

Hi all,

I have been gathering thoughts from the talk-gb list and my main
concern now is how the tertiary roads are shown, especially in
countries where people map roads according to quality and hierarchy
(and there are more than one). In Greece, tertiary roads connect all
villages while in Thailand, tertiary roads have an important use in
referring to roads with four digit numbers.

While I believe that the new rendering has potential, I am suggesting
that in order to resolve concerns about the portrayal of tertiary
roads, the motorways on the mainstream style should be blue, purple or
violet instead of the current shade of rose. This would free up rose
for trunk roads, red for primary roads and so on until yellow for
tertiary.


I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad choice. 
It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also in 
lots of other countries in europe.
But that is not really the issue. It is not that a colorscheme should 
follow the colorscheme of a particular country per se. The current color 
scheme just makes it hard to distinguish roads. Teritary roads, being 
white, are all but unrecognizable. Looking at motorways, trunk roads or 
primary roads, I can not tell one from the other, except when I see two 
next to eachother.
Furthermore, on high zooms, roads have gotten too fat. It makes the map 
look bulky.


The colorscheme for roads is defintely a step back from the previous.

Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 11/02/2015 09:40 AM, Maarten Deen wrote:
> I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad choice. 
> It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also in 
> lots of other countries in europe.

I find it strange to see many people arguing that there should be a
similarity between street signs and the colour used on the map. Germany,
for example, uses blue motorway signs exclusively, but the first thing
that went out of the window when the German OSM style
(http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html) was created in 2011 was the
blue motorways ("nobody apart from the Brits likes that") ;)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Maarten Deen]

On 2015-11-02 10:30, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 11/02/2015 09:40 AM, Maarten Deen wrote:
I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad 
choice.
It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also 
in

lots of other countries in europe.


I find it strange to see many people arguing that there should be a
similarity between street signs and the colour used on the map. 
Germany,

for example, uses blue motorway signs exclusively,


I'm not sure if I read this right, but the Netherlands, Belgium and 
France also use blue signs to indicate motorways.


But I also say "It is not that a colorscheme should follow the 
colorscheme of a particular country per se", so IMHO it should not be a 
consideration. I was merely pointing out that it was not limited to the 
UK alone.


Regards,
Maarten


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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 02.11.2015 um 09:40 schrieb Maarten Deen :
> 
> Teritary roads, being white, are all but unrecognizable. Looking at 
> motorways, trunk roads or primary roads, I can not tell one from the other, 
> except when I see two next to eachother.
> Furthermore, on high zooms, roads have gotten too fat. It makes the map look 
> bulky.


+1, especially tertiary roads now tend to merge into blobs, e.g. here: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/41.85901/12.49464

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Simon Poole]

Am 02.11.2015 um 09:40 schrieb Maarten Deen:
>
> I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad
> choice. It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in
> blue also in lots of other countries in europe.
And in lots of countries in Europe they are signposted in green. I'm not
quite sure why we are being held ransom to a questionable decision which
was made (not so long ago) by an unrelated third party. Which
interesting enough however doesn't use every imaginable colour for their
road network either
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/osmaps/#53.00818632749056,-1.4402046835289466
and essentially only differentiates between three road types.
> But that is not really the issue. It is not that a colorscheme should
> follow the colorscheme of a particular country per se. The current
> color scheme just makes it hard to distinguish roads. Teritary roads,
> being white, are all but unrecognizable. Looking at motorways, trunk
> roads or primary roads, I can not tell one from the other, except when
> I see two next to eachother.
> Furthermore, on high zooms, roads have gotten too fat. It makes the
> map look bulky.
>
> The colorscheme for roads is defintely a step back from the previous.
I think you'll find that most find that it is a big step forward. if you
go back and look at the material provided during the (very very public)
development and discussion of the changes, or just compare with the
French style (which uses the previous colour scheme), it is very obvious
that the road network is rendered substantially better now. Your straw
man: "I have to be able to recognize each single road type in isolation"
is simply not realistic for a map that is supposed to include everything
else too.

Simon



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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-11-02 10:51 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole :

> -1 given that you can always find specific situations in which a one
> size fits all rendering fails, in the previous style there are tons of
> while blobs made out of residential class roads, didn't stop anybody
> from using the map.
>



examples? IMHO, a residential road has to have some minimum width, a 2
metres wide alley (total width, no pavement) in a historic town center
should be tagged as an alley, for instance. Similarly, a highway=pedestrian
should be a road that is pedestrianized, not a small footway/alley inside a
"pedestrian" zone.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Amaroussi (OpenStreetMap)]

Hi,

The only immediate main problem I have is the Tertiary roads due to many 
countries using it as well, but other than that I still offer to mediate any 
potential dispute over the road colours, and for that I have suggested that the 
British/Heritage/Legacy/whatever you like to call it layer be added as soon as 
a tile server for that goes live.

No, I’m not throwing a temper tantrum over the change in the layer, but I was 
thinking how I could manage the change for UK users.

— Amaroussi

> On 2 Nov 2015, at 09:30, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On 11/02/2015 09:40 AM, Maarten Deen wrote:
>> I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad choice. 
>> It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also in 
>> lots of other countries in europe.
> 
> I find it strange to see many people arguing that there should be a
> similarity between street signs and the colour used on the map. Germany,
> for example, uses blue motorway signs exclusively, but the first thing
> that went out of the window when the German OSM style
> (http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html) was created in 2011 was the
> blue motorways ("nobody apart from the Brits likes that") ;)
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
> 
> -- 
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
> 
> ___
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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Andy Robinson]

+1

Cheers
Andy

-Original Message-
From: Maarten Deen [mailto:md...@xs4all.nl] 
Sent: 02 November 2015 08:40
To: dev@openstreetmap.org; talk...@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

On 2015-11-01 18:09, Amaroussi (OpenStreetMap) wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I have been gathering thoughts from the talk-gb list and my main 
> concern now is how the tertiary roads are shown, especially in 
> countries where people map roads according to quality and hierarchy 
> (and there are more than one). In Greece, tertiary roads connect all 
> villages while in Thailand, tertiary roads have an important use in 
> referring to roads with four digit numbers.
> 
> While I believe that the new rendering has potential, I am suggesting 
> that in order to resolve concerns about the portrayal of tertiary 
> roads, the motorways on the mainstream style should be blue, purple or 
> violet instead of the current shade of rose. This would free up rose 
> for trunk roads, red for primary roads and so on until yellow for 
> tertiary.

I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad choice. 
It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also in lots of 
other countries in europe.
But that is not really the issue. It is not that a colorscheme should follow 
the colorscheme of a particular country per se. The current color scheme just 
makes it hard to distinguish roads. Teritary roads, being white, are all but 
unrecognizable. Looking at motorways, trunk roads or primary roads, I can not 
tell one from the other, except when I see two next to eachother.
Furthermore, on high zooms, roads have gotten too fat. It makes the map look 
bulky.

The colorscheme for roads is defintely a step back from the previous.

Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-dev] Osmosis data corruption on Debian Jessie/Testing

[Brett Henderson]

I've added the check.  Processing will abort if unicode support is broken,
and the error message suggests including a newer version of Xerces.

On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 at 17:30 Brett Henderson  wrote:

> Ah, great I'll take a look this evening and see if I can add a runtime
> check.
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015, 5:15 PM Jochen Topf  wrote:
>
>> As I mentioned below:
>> > > > > You can test whether this bug is on your system, too: Download
>> the XML
>> > > > > for this node: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3382756758.
>> Then run
>> > > > > it through osmosis:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > osmosis --rx 3382756758.osm --wx out.osm
>> > > > > Compare the two files, you'll see the musical notation character
>> > > doubling
>>
>> On Mo, Nov 02, 2015 at 05:34:14 +, Brett Henderson wrote:
>> > Sorry, I'm terrible at checking this list.  6 months isn't ideal.  Does
>> > anybody have an XML snippet that I could use for such a test?
>> >
>> > On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 at 23:50 Jochen Topf  wrote:
>> >
>> > > I think the bug is important and subtle enough that we should make
>> sure it
>> > > doesn't resurface again. Either by detecting the runtime or by the
>> check
>> > > you describe. At least we should put the check into a unit test, so
>> that
>> > > people who run the tests on their platform after building can be safe.
>> > >
>> > > Jochen
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 05:25:12PM +1100, Brett Henderson wrote:
>> > > > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 17:25:12 +1100
>> > > > From: Brett Henderson 
>> > > > To: Jochen Topf 
>> > > > Cc: OSM-Dev Openstreetmap 
>> > > > Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] Osmosis data corruption on Debian
>> Jessie/Testing
>> > > >
>> > > > I suspect that attempting to detect the underlying XML runtime
>> would be
>> > > > brittle.  Another option might be to embed that bit of data in
>> Osmosis
>> > > > itself and do a self test before attempting to execute any XML
>> tasks.
>> > > >
>> > > > I'm surprised that this is still an issue in standard Java.  I tried
>> > > > raising tickets against Sun Java before it moved under Oracle but
>> never
>> > > got
>> > > > a response.  I gave up, embedded Xerces in the main Osmosis
>> distribution,
>> > > > and then forgot about it.
>> > > >
>> > > > On 5 March 2015 at 10:16, Jochen Topf  wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Hi!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Just spent a few hours debugging this problem: The way Osmosis is
>> > > packaged
>> > > > > on Debian Jessie seems to be wrong. It doesn't use the Xerces XML
>> > > parser
>> > > > > but seems to fall back to Java default XML parser which mangles
>> Unicode
>> > > > > characters.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > This can lead to data corruption (and has for me today) when using
>> > > Osmosis
>> > > > > for planet updates etc.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > You can test whether this bug is on your system, too: Download
>> the XML
>> > > > > for this node: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3382756758.
>> Then run
>> > > > > it through osmosis:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > osmosis --rx 3382756758.osm --wx out.osm
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Compare the two files, you'll see the musical notation character
>> > > doubling
>> > > > > in the second case when your Osmosis is broken. The fix is
>> simple: Add
>> > > > > a line "load /usr/share/java/xercesImpl.jar" to
>> > > /etc/osmosis/plexus.conf.
>> > > > > As I understand this, it tells Java to load Xerces replacing the
>> > > built-in
>> > > > > XML parser.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I have opened a bug with Debian.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Arguably Osmosis should somehow detect when Xerces isn't found and
>> > > return
>> > > > > an
>> > > > > error instead of using a different implemenation. But I don't know
>> > > enough
>> > > > > about
>> > > > > Java to say whether thats possible.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Jochen
>> > > > > --
>> > > > > Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  http://www.jochentopf.com/
>> > > > > +49-173-7019282
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ___
>> > > > > dev mailing list
>> > > > > dev@openstreetmap.org
>> > > > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
>> > > > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  http://www.jochentopf.com/
>> > > +49-173-7019282
>> > >
>>
>> --
>> Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  http://www.jochentopf.com/
>> +49-351-31778688
>>
>
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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Richard Fairhurst]

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> other UK cartographers used green for non-primary roads

(I meant "primary A roads", of course, or in OSM parlance "trunk")

Richard



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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Richard Fairhurst]

SimonPoole wrote:
> And in lots of countries in Europe they are signposted in green. I'm 
> not quite sure why we are being held ransom to a questionable 
> decision which was made (not so long ago) by an unrelated third 
> party. Which interesting enough however doesn't use every 
> imaginable colour for their road network either
> https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/osmaps/#53.00818632749056,-1.4402046835289466

For the eighty gazillionth time:

The old OSM style did not use blue, green and red because these were
"Ordnance Survey" colours. The old OSM style used blue, green and red
because they were the standard British map colours. In particular, other UK
cartographers used green for non-primary roads long before OS did (I think
OS only switched in the late '90s).

If you want to find a commercial prototype for OSM then the AA maps are a
little closer, but actually the colours were directly taken from a map I did
for the Cotswold Canals Trust, slightly desaturated:
https://twitter.com/richardf/status/632185970037657600

I'm not saying that because I have a particular animus towards the new style
(I agree that a change was long overdue, and greatly respect the work that
the osm-carto team have put into it); I simply want to squash this erroneous
idea that the old colours were OS-derived.

Incidentally, the old shields (which should have been taken out back and
shot a long time ago, and I'm glad they're gone) were not remotely OS
either, as some people have excitedly claimed, but were an unintentional
echo of British Railways totem signs from the 1950s:
http://website.lineone.net/~alan.c.edwards/railsign.html

Richard




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