Re: [OSM-dev] Opening hours
I have spent some thought on a simple linked list like in this template:
tag:next_tag=expression
next_tag:third_tag=expression
third_tag:following_tag=expression
following_tag=[validity|AND|OR|XOR] *which may be followed by even more tags
validity={restriction enabled|disabled} *always last in chain
expression={from_hour-to_hour|from_day-to_day|from_month-to_month|...}
where day={0[1-30]|[1-7]|[last|first|numbered](day-representation)}
You cannot fill such attributes manually, but it seems to be capable to define
lots of, if not all, constellations.
I have travelled roads which are restricted in holiday times every day and on
all sundays between June and October, to be used upwards between 1:00-1:30,
2:00-2:30 ... and downwards between 1:30-2:00, 2:30-3:00 ...
Which means as much as one-way at a timed schedule.
Reason: narrow tunnels without light, steep cliffs and not enough space for
securing the way ...
Well, wilderness calls
;-)
Original-Nachricht
Datum: Fri, 7 May 2010 01:40:09 +1000
Von: John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com
An: Roland Olbricht roland.olbri...@gmx.de
CC: dev@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: Re: [OSM-dev] Opening hours
On 6 May 2010 23:55, Roland Olbricht roland.olbri...@gmx.de wrote:
On the other hand, a line like Mo-Fr 09:00-12:00; Tu 14:00-17:00 may
read
- on Tuesdays also in the afternoon or
- on Tuesdays only in the afternoon.
While the former is far more common, the latter is what the current
syntax
defines.
It's always easier to add hours of operation, rather than trying to
make things more complex by trying to subtract it which the current
documentation doesn't extent to.
eg Mo-Fr 09:00-12:00; Tu 09:00-12:00,14:00-17:00
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Re: [OSM-dev] Opening hours
Complicated, yes.
You cannot avoid complexity if you want to cover all cases.
You could instead invent a language to put in the value in whole.
Or you can decide to not be able to cover complex opening hours.
A linked list at least leaves the option to define simple opening hours in a
slim format instead of using the complicated scheme, without a syntactic effort
in the OSM db.
If it were only for an online service, the solution could be hidden from the
apps. But OSM isn't an online service.
pity (?)
Original-Nachricht
Datum: Fri, 7 May 2010 03:16:30 +1000
Von: John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com
An: OpenStreetMap Developers dev@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: Re: [OSM-dev] Opening hours
On 7 May 2010 03:00, Thomas Meller thomas.mel...@gmx.net wrote:
I have spent some thought on a simple linked list like in this template:
tag:next_tag=expression
next_tag:third_tag=expression
third_tag:following_tag=expression
following_tag=[validity|AND|OR|XOR] *which may be followed by even more
tags
Is there a good reason to make things increasingly complex?
Things are already complex enough at present, to the point people
don't often tag this kind of information...
validity={restriction enabled|disabled} *always last in chain
I've already applied this sort of thinking to school zones, during
certain times of the day the speed limit will be lowered.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:restriction%3Dschool_zone
However I can't think of any examples when the restriction happens the
majority of the time so I'm not sure what the advantage of making
things overly complicated in this case.
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Re: [OSM-dev] Open Social Routing Idea: Request for preliminary comments
@Ivan: I agree. The more people using my favourite route, the slower I will get forward, so why should I share? Answer: not at all if I know which informations my actions do supply to the service. But: tell the user to make a perfect route for her purpose if she supplies the service with detail information such as car type, personal driving style, comfort preference, urgency, and, of course, starting time and personally expected arrival time. And don't forget about the feedback next time she logs in again. (think carefully about the validity of the result) last.fm names this 'skobbling' and gives you recommendations, groups user types and creates correlations to form groups by similarity of preferences. The idea is not bad, but I don't expect it to grow successful, especially because the project's scope is short-term. You need a deep breath to get it all sexy and charming enough for average people to use. Without a wide userbase such a service won't get any value. Creating the toolset services like this could be based upon looks promising, though. Thomas Original-Nachricht Datum: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 11:37:02 +0200 Von: Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es An: dev@openstreetmap.org Betreff: Re: [OSM-dev] Open Social Routing Idea: Request for preliminary comments El 19/04/2010 16:56, Jonas Gabriel escribió: Every person creates personal routes based on his knowledge of his living area.[...] Then a service could produce routes by using members of this alternative routing graph forest connected by a traditional routing service [...] I would like to hear some of your comments.Does it make any sense? Yeah, it makes sense and would be doable by lowering the weights of the graph arcs in the routing algorithm for every uploaded route, or add a new arc for every uploaded route, with a lowered weight. However, besides from being a cool research project... what problem does it *solve*? Why would *I* be interested in uploading routes to such a service? Cheers, -- Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev -- http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=47.172lon=7.4395zoom=15layers=B000FTFTTmlat=47.16696mlon=7.43509 GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] OSM Data Update
If there is need for external references, I suggest to use a relation and add all nodes concerned in the order they appear in the way object. A node cannot be split and recombined, only deleted. Whether everybody will be happy with external references or not... Original-Nachricht Datum: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:29:57 +0100 Von: Jim Brown j...@cloudmade.com An: Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de, dev@openstreetmap.org dev@openstreetmap.org Betreff: Re: [OSM-dev] OSM Data Update Yep... -Original Message- From: dev-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:dev-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Peter Körner Sent: 31 March 2010 08:10 To: dev@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] OSM Data Update Jim Brown schrieb: Frederik wrote: You should never assume that OSM Way IDs (or indeed any IDs) remain unchanged. The data layer on www.openstreetmap.org is your friend if you want to find out the history of a particular stretch of motorway. If the ids change it makes diff processing a bit difficult... The id's don't change but elements can be deleted and re-created and thereby given a new id. Peter ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev -- http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=47.172lon=7.4395zoom=15layers=B000FTFTTmlat=47.16696mlon=7.43509 GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
[OSM-dev] Fwd: Re: Project Proposal - Waze Integration
Original-Nachricht Datum: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:05:53 +0100 Von: Thomas Meller thomas.mel...@gmx.net An: Nic Roets nro...@gmail.com Betreff: Re: [OSM-dev] Project Proposal - Waze Integration I am glad they build their own map. The project will get stuck. The social mechanics won't support complete map data in rural areas. It never will. The quality of IPhone GPS-traces is well known to be bad. The idea is sexy, but not at all compatible with OSM's goals. As long as users don't expect good routing outside of the US, the concept may work, though. As for the project proposal: you could use waze traffic data to make OSM routing better. A user-contributed traffic density plugin could feed other services as well, but there are licensing issues. See terms of use (http://world.waze.com/legal/tos/), item 2.7 and 3.1! Transmitting gpx traces in realtime to create realistic maxspeed metrics looks promising at first glance. The crucial thing is the post-processing platform. There will be need for pattern searches to get good estimates (ex: holidays, rush hours, fairs). Defining API interfaces to be filled with functionality someday could be a nice-to-have on the future student-projects page and a basis for further developing mature concepts, even if the project proposed by the student does not deliver data or code to be directly used in OSM. Experience is what counts. As a result, I think waze does not contribute to open source other than using open source efforts by others to get promoted as a data supplier. It might be possible to write plugins which deliver data to waze and other services at the same time. I think this would not break their copyright conditions. But to be sure, I would discuss this well on osm-legal. mixed feelings, Thomas Original-Nachricht Datum: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:17:59 +0200 Von: Nic Roets nro...@gmail.com An: Graham Jones grahamjones...@googlemail.com CC: OSM-Dev Openstreetmap dev@openstreetmap.org Betreff: Re: [OSM-dev] Project Proposal - Waze Integration Hello Graham, AFAIK Waze wants to build their own map of the world and sees OSM as competition. Waze has already imported TIGER, which is PD and I don't think Waze will be a viable concept without TIGER. SteveC reviewed their Iphone app on his blog. There is however scope for building our own Waze infrastructure: 1. Mobile apps for collecting tracklogs. Or libraries that app developers can use. 2. A repository for GPX data that does not have the privacy concerns our repository current have. 3. Algorithms for fixing TIGER data using GPX tracks and / or detecting delays in the road network. Regards, Nic On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Graham Jones grahamjones...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Folks, A student has contacted me about a potential Google Summer of Code proposal to provide integration between OSM and Waze (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GSoC_Project_Ideas_2010#Waze_Integration). I had never heard of Waze before, but it seems to be a combination of a user contributed map (like OSM), and traffic information, again user contributed. It sounds sensible to me to use OSM as the base map, and Waze to handle the traffic information. There are a couple of things that I do not understand though, and would appreciate some help so that I can guide the student appropriately: For some reason, Waze seem to be producing their own map rather than using OSM as the basis - does anyone know why? The student says he has contacted Waze and they said it was because of licensing issues - this is a surprise to me, because I think our license is pretty relaxed. Has anyone been in touch with them about it? (Please don't turn this into a 'OSM should be PD' dabate!!). Assuming that the license issue can be sorted, has anyone looked at what Waze are doing and how it could be used with OSM? If so, can you suggest some ideas for a closed-scope student project? Thanks for your help! Regards Graham. -- Dr. Graham Jones Hartlepool, UK email: grahamjones...@gmail.com ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev -- http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=47.172lon=7.4395zoom=15layers=B000FTFTTmlat=47.16696mlon=7.43509 GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 -- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] project idea
I have retexted the project description: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Tmeller#Student_Projects Please comment in this list. I will make corrections on that page myself to keep it clean. Thanks to Goran and Graham. I appreciate the substantial help. Thomas Original-Nachricht Datum: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:38:29 +0100 Von: Thomas Meller thomas.mel...@gmx.net An: dev@openstreetmap.org Betreff: Re: [OSM-dev] project idea Thank you for your suggestions. To explain what I think of, let me crosspost this: schnipp-- I climb rocks. There might be the need to find a climbing facility for the next weekend. I specify the difficulty level, the radius, the date and let software create a list of suggestions. Near where I live, there is a rock inside of a game reserve. That is, you are not allowed to leave the ways from octobre til june. Resulting in 'climbing forbidden' til july. Other example: Road, find boundaries: found : - Boundary_Europe - Boundary_Switzerland - Boundary_Kanton_Solothurn - Boundary_Communal_Grenchen - Boundary_city_limit - Boundary_landuse=residential Road is highway=primary Europe adds nothing Switzerland adds maxspeed=80 kph Solothurn adds nothing Grenchen adds nothing city_limit adds nothing (different in other countries) landuse adds nothing Road adds maxspeed=50 kph Result: maxspeed=50kph If the road wasn't tagged at all, the result would be maxspeed=80 kph. schnapp-- The decision how and on which application layer to implement such functions depends on how these should be used. You mentioned off-line use. That makes implementation client-bound and thus platform-dependent, but opens the opportunity for offline use. A question of taste and goal, if you ask me. (wow, I found two tasks instead of one! ;-) Whether these functions should form part of the OSM API or if they should be implemented as a stand-alone service relying on OSM data is a question I cannot answer. Every implementer should consider consulting the creators of the OSM API to add to usability instead of complexity. As I wrote: spending some thought on the platform which executes these functions could get vital when/if OSM becomes a widely accepted data collection. The calculations needed are not trivial and demand some computing power on the server's part. I could imagine a function to get 'effective' tags, specify a filter on what bounding object need to fulfill (ex: admin-level =3 .OR. landuse=*) and an output format out of a collection of several models, returned as an array. One could be 'tag|value|admin-level', another could be 'tag|value|tag-source', where tag-source can be (explicit|default|regional). But my ideas may not be mature. I am not capable to foresee every possible use of such functions. One thing I see ist that a way- or area-type of object can intersect with a boundary. The result may be a number of resulting sub-objects with their own individual set of effective tags. You could divide this task into another set of functions which return an array of sub-objects. This adds the need to handle such sub-objects (a really new set of things to do). The task can get really demanding and needs to be truncated somewhere. I'm going to write down a description on my account's discussion page before I post it on the Student_projetcs page. Corrections in every respect are highly welcome! Thomas Original-Nachricht Datum: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:27:27 +0100 Von: Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de An: dev@openstreetmap.org Betreff: Re: [OSM-dev] project idea Graham Jones schrieb: Thomas, I think this suggestion is essentially to provide a 'default' set of tags for ways depending on where the way is. If the tag is not explicitly included in the way, the API will return the default? I can not help with the technical aspects of this, but it sounds like a fair suggestion for a project working on extending the API - can someone that knows about the API code comment? Please don't put it in the API. The API and the Planet-Dumper and all server-side tools out there just should show what's in the database -- not more, not less. For me this sounds like a feature for a client library, that can be plugged in or out. This Plugin for this client lib could (!) use the rules from some server but could also use rules locally stored (eg. when in offline mode on some navigation device) Maybe some parts of the JOSM-Code could be used as a basis for this. Peter ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev -- http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=47.172lon=7.4395zoom=15layers=B000FTFTTmlat=47.16677mlon=7.43513 GMX DSL: Internet, Telefon und Entertainment für nur 19,99 EUR/mtl.! http
Re: [OSM-dev] project idea
Thank you for your suggestions. To explain what I think of, let me crosspost this: schnipp-- I climb rocks. There might be the need to find a climbing facility for the next weekend. I specify the difficulty level, the radius, the date and let software create a list of suggestions. Near where I live, there is a rock inside of a game reserve. That is, you are not allowed to leave the ways from octobre til june. Resulting in 'climbing forbidden' til july. Other example: Road, find boundaries: found : - Boundary_Europe - Boundary_Switzerland - Boundary_Kanton_Solothurn - Boundary_Communal_Grenchen - Boundary_city_limit - Boundary_landuse=residential Road is highway=primary Europe adds nothing Switzerland adds maxspeed=80 kph Solothurn adds nothing Grenchen adds nothing city_limit adds nothing (different in other countries) landuse adds nothing Road adds maxspeed=50 kph Result: maxspeed=50kph If the road wasn't tagged at all, the result would be maxspeed=80 kph. schnapp-- The decision how and on which application layer to implement such functions depends on how these should be used. You mentioned off-line use. That makes implementation client-bound and thus platform-dependent, but opens the opportunity for offline use. A question of taste and goal, if you ask me. (wow, I found two tasks instead of one! ;-) Whether these functions should form part of the OSM API or if they should be implemented as a stand-alone service relying on OSM data is a question I cannot answer. Every implementer should consider consulting the creators of the OSM API to add to usability instead of complexity. As I wrote: spending some thought on the platform which executes these functions could get vital when/if OSM becomes a widely accepted data collection. The calculations needed are not trivial and demand some computing power on the server's part. I could imagine a function to get 'effective' tags, specify a filter on what bounding object need to fulfill (ex: admin-level =3 .OR. landuse=*) and an output format out of a collection of several models, returned as an array. One could be 'tag|value|admin-level', another could be 'tag|value|tag-source', where tag-source can be (explicit|default|regional). But my ideas may not be mature. I am not capable to foresee every possible use of such functions. One thing I see ist that a way- or area-type of object can intersect with a boundary. The result may be a number of resulting sub-objects with their own individual set of effective tags. You could divide this task into another set of functions which return an array of sub-objects. This adds the need to handle such sub-objects (a really new set of things to do). The task can get really demanding and needs to be truncated somewhere. I'm going to write down a description on my account's discussion page before I post it on the Student_projetcs page. Corrections in every respect are highly welcome! Thomas Original-Nachricht Datum: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:27:27 +0100 Von: Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de An: dev@openstreetmap.org Betreff: Re: [OSM-dev] project idea Graham Jones schrieb: Thomas, I think this suggestion is essentially to provide a 'default' set of tags for ways depending on where the way is. If the tag is not explicitly included in the way, the API will return the default? I can not help with the technical aspects of this, but it sounds like a fair suggestion for a project working on extending the API - can someone that knows about the API code comment? Please don't put it in the API. The API and the Planet-Dumper and all server-side tools out there just should show what's in the database -- not more, not less. For me this sounds like a feature for a client library, that can be plugged in or out. This Plugin for this client lib could (!) use the rules from some server but could also use rules locally stored (eg. when in offline mode on some navigation device) Maybe some parts of the JOSM-Code could be used as a basis for this. Peter ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev -- http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=47.172lon=7.4395zoom=15layers=B000FTFTTmlat=47.16677mlon=7.43513 GMX DSL: Internet, Telefon und Entertainment für nur 19,99 EUR/mtl.! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 -- http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=47.172lon=7.4395zoom=15layers=B000FTFTTmlat=47.16677mlon=7.43513 GMX DSL: Internet, Telefon und Entertainment für nur 19,99 EUR/mtl.! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
