Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
Even within your own time zone, IRC only allows you to communicate with people who are online right now, not someone who might log in an hour from now. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 15:29:24 Cc: Talk Openstreetmapt...@openstreetmap.org; dev listdev@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept Sam Vekemans wrote: Many have abandoned this talk@ list because IRC is more efficient. Only if you want to talk to people either in your own time zone or are night workers. Talk@ communicates ideas with all people all over the globe. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
One idea is to leverage IRC power, by having an international channel, where any language is permitted. And people can respond live translate, and people can get their answer. Having this IRC weblink directly on the feedback box will help a great deal. Many have abandoned this talk@ list because IRC is more efficient. (kind of like twitter, but the useful version) and it could be better with more languages permitted. Imo, Sam On 2/20/10, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On Feb 20, 2010, at 11:20 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, SteveC wrote: Wrong. Map bugs. Did you read my post Fred ? :-) So you meant to integrate uservoice.com instead of integrating openstreetbugs? But can their system tie notes to map locations? Well I'll go further. openstreetbugs is basically there but has a crappy UI. It needs to be 1) click 'feedback' or 'problem' 2) enter problem 3) click ok the extra step of clicking where the problem is should not happen, we should get that from the bbox or center point plus zoom. So with some changes I think we can integrate OSB and expose it front and center to help fix up the bugs. I think in an environment where every other map on the planet is trying to hide their bugs, we should expose ours and fix them quickly while showing everyone what they got wrong. As for your comments about people entering bugs and feature requests we can't handle... look. I understand it's a case of matching requests to people who can be bothered to do them. And I understand that people here today can't be bothered to fix most of the things that are wrong in OSM because we're all happy to work around them... but it's bonkers to be dismissive about 'granny' because it's all those grannies out there who are going to help us fix this map. If I think about all the people who can help today in OSM, I immediately think of my brothers and sister, my parents and so on... and the only way is if we go through a big complicated loop with walking papers. A bug system like the above should be where we're headed. It will make so many more people help us, and we will be able to fix so many more things. So as for features and software bugs... I think we should turn up the volume of the people who want things changed. One, we might learn something about what the users actually want (because trac is a poor, poor reflection) and two... look we should be the first people to welcome input on what people think we should do. We can't all hide in our basement and hack on Java any more. We have to help these people who are crying out for it. I'll add two more things 1) Using google insight (bing for it) and many other tools it's very very clear that the german community is by far and away huge. That's wonderful, but we don't have Germans all over Europe and the US - we need these tools out here Frederik to help us fix the map. 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_. Horrendous. A total PITA. We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. You have to take a step back here and realise what we're missing out on. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Blog: http://Acrosscanadatrails.blogspot.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans Skype: samvekemans OpenStreetMap IRC: http://irc.openstreetmap.org @Acrosscanadatrails ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
On 01/-10/-28163 08:59 PM, SteveC wrote: On Feb 20, 2010, at 11:20 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: ... openstreetbugs is basically there but has a crappy UI. It needs to be Fixing openstreetbugs crappy ui and integrating it into the main page seems like the better way to go in this case rather than replace it with a system that is not designed nor good at handling spacial suggestions. 1) click 'feedback' or 'problem' 2) enter problem 3) click ok the extra step of clicking where the problem is should not happen, we should get that from the bbox or center point plus zoom. So with some changes I think we can integrate OSB and expose it front and center to help fix up the bugs. Are you suggesting that it is a bad idea to specify a location of a map bug? Ok, so I will zoom into central london and tell you there is a turn restriction missing. How is anyone supposed to help fix this without the detailed location information? Even google with their report a problem link lets you place a marker to highlight where the problem actually is. And perhaps the UI of the bug reporting should say at the top something like Hey, you can report a map problem here, no problem, but even better would be if you click on the edit button and actually fix it your self. But if you feel uncomfortable to do that, just report it here and perhaps eventually someone else like you might come and fix it ... I'll add two more things 1) Using google insight (bing for it) and many other tools it's very very clear that the german community is by far and away huge. That's wonderful, but we don't have Germans all over Europe and the US - we need these tools out here Frederik to help us fix the map. 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_.Horrendous. A total PITA. Actually, I am not that clear on why it is all that _awful_. I kind of like the design (of the main page). Yes, it has its issues and there are a few things I would like to see to improve the usability, that are better in your design. (The more prominent search bar, now that we have the technical capabilities to support larger use of search and the inclusion of some Quality Assurance tools) But most of those could be added incrementally too. We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. Yes, a simple bug system can help. In particular in those regions that are already complete, are in maintanace mode and have sufficient established mappers that are actually looking for things to do. But in all other cases, which unfortunately at the moment are probably still the majority, just reporting problems won't actually get them fixed. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. I don't think this comment is fair, as Richard is doing a wonderful job, especially as a one man volunteer. But I will leave it at that. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. You have to take a step back here and realise what we're missing out on. I think what we are (partly) missing out on here is people technically capable on actually implementing any of those suggestions and also some people who are technically skilled enough to realize what is feasible for volunteers to achieve and what not and are willing to work closely with the implementers to get the UI user friendly. People just throwing ideas over the wall, can occasionally be useful, but I don't think that is our main problem. Although the general attitude of Open source programmers of Oh the code is that way, so go and fix it your self is not always helpful either. Kai Yoursc. Steve ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
Hi, Great mockup ! I think we absolutely need a get direction as an alternative to the search box. This is probably on of the first thing why people are using maps :), to see how to go from anywhere to anywhere else. Why to keep the ratio of the map ? rather than to link dynamicaly the bottom edge of the slippy map to the browser's borders like the left and right ones are. Great job anyway ! On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 12:48 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: I've posted a design concept with description and invitation for feedback here: http://opengeodata.org/new-design-concept-for-openstreetmaporg Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Steven Le Roux Jabber-ID : ste...@jabber.fr 0x39494CCB ste...@le-roux.info 2FF7 226B 552E 4709 03F0 6281 72D7 A010 3949 4CCB ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
On 22 February 2010 01:37, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Streetbugs encourages people to 'get others to do it' when OSM should be encouraging them to 'do it yourself' While it'd be nice if people would fix any problems themselves, I don't think OSM's website is at the point where some granny can just quickly/easily sign up and tweak a few things, there is simply too many alien concepts for most people to grasp quickly and easily. Find some random non-technical family member and try and explain it to them some time. In the mean time if they can quickly explain the problem people could explain to the person reporting it how to fix it. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 1:15 AM, Kai Krueger wrote: the extra step of clicking where the problem is should not happen, we should get that from the bbox or center point plus zoom. So with some changes I think we can integrate OSB and expose it front and center to help fix up the bugs. Are you suggesting that it is a bad idea to specify a location of a map bug? Ok, so I will zoom into central london and tell you there is a turn restriction missing. How is anyone supposed to help fix this without the detailed location information? Even google with their report a problem link lets you place a marker to highlight where the problem actually is. And perhaps the UI of the bug reporting should say at the top something like Hey, you can report a map problem here, no problem, but even better would be if you click on the edit button and actually fix it your self. But if you feel uncomfortable to do that, just report it here and perhaps eventually someone else like you might come and fix it I like the latter, reporting the *exact* location as a extra feature. I think you'll get more bugs if you allow people to type descriptively the location rather than force a click on the location. It seems simple to all of us, but it isn't to the vast majority of people. ... I'll add two more things 1) Using google insight (bing for it) and many other tools it's very very clear that the german community is by far and away huge. That's wonderful, but we don't have Germans all over Europe and the US - we need these tools out here Frederik to help us fix the map. 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_.Horrendous. A total PITA. Actually, I am not that clear on why it is all that _awful_. I kind of like the design (of the main page). Yes, it has its issues and there are a few things I would like to see to improve the usability, that are better in your design. (The more prominent search bar, now that we have the technical capabilities to support larger use of search and the inclusion of some Quality Assurance tools) But most of those could be added incrementally too. It's the number one complaint I hear when I fly all over the world talking to people about OSM. Bad design, hard to learn editor tools (just go and look at Google/Waze stuff for comparison) and then the dreaded when will you guys get your act together and change license... We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. Yes, a simple bug system can help. In particular in those regions that are already complete, are in maintanace mode and have sufficient established mappers that are actually looking for things to do. But in all other cases, which unfortunately at the moment are probably still the majority, just reporting problems won't actually get them fixed. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. I don't think this comment is fair, as Richard is doing a wonderful job, especially as a one man volunteer. But I will leave it at that. I'm sorry I disagree. I think it's great Richard volunteers of course, and puts all the effort in, but it has to be said that that effort would be 100x more useful in finishing potlatch 2 than more time on potlatch 1. I think what we are (partly) missing out on here is people technically capable on actually implementing any of those suggestions and also some people who are technically skilled enough to realize what is feasible for volunteers to achieve and what not and are willing to work closely with the implementers to get the UI user friendly. People just throwing ideas over the wall, can occasionally be useful, but I don't think that is our main problem. Although the general attitude of Open source programmers of Oh the code is that way, so go and fix it your self is not always helpful either. That's exactly it - and why I made that point on the OGD post. Some projects have a 'design dictator' because nobody can ever agree web design issues. That's a bit harsh but it's one way to do it. Yours c. Steve ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 8:03 AM, Dave F. wrote: How is zooming all the way in repeatedly panning around to centre up, quicker than one click to _accurately_ locate the problem? Hi, you've never done a UI review. http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/UX_and_Usability_Study Money quote: Every user in this study struggled to get a basic grasp of the editing interface. Despite users’ overall excitement about Wikipedia, their willingness to spend up to an hour on the site, and varying levels of computer expertise, they largely failed to make edits correctly without repeated attempts and efforts. It would be worse for OSM. Ir shouldn't be. 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_. Horrendous. A total PITA. We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. You have to take a step back here and realise what we're missing out on. You really are a grade A tosser. When most people here treat others with respect, why do you have to degenerate it into a juvenile, Youtube style slanging match? What do you think Granny's reaction will be when she reads this? Sorry, do you disagree with any specific point I made? Yours c. Steve ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
Sam Vekemans wrote: Many have abandoned this talk@ list because IRC is more efficient. Only if you want to talk to people either in your own time zone or are night workers. Talk@ communicates ideas with all people all over the globe. Cheers Dave F. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
Apollinaris Schoell wrote: ok and then? who will pick it up and fix it? look at openstreetbugs and most could be closed right away. the feedback from most people is useless. a comment footways are missing in this park doesn't help much if there is no experienced mapper willing to survey. And someone able to write a detailed and useful description will be able to Potlatch* in the same time +1 Streetbugs encourages people to 'get others to do it' when OSM should be encouraging them to 'do it yourself' Cheers Dave F. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
SteveC wrote: Well I'll go further. openstreetbugs is basically there but has a crappy UI. It needs to be 1) click 'feedback' or 'problem' 2) enter problem 3) click ok the extra step of clicking where the problem is should not happen, we should get that from the bbox or center point plus zoom. So with some changes I think we can integrate OSB and expose it front and center to help fix up the bugs. How is zooming all the way in repeatedly panning around to centre up, quicker than one click to _accurately_ locate the problem? 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_. Horrendous. A total PITA. We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. You have to take a step back here and realise what we're missing out on. You really are a grade A tosser. When most people here treat others with respect, why do you have to degenerate it into a juvenile, Youtube style slanging match? What do you think Granny's reaction will be when she reads this? Dave F. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
John Smith wrote: On 22 February 2010 01:37, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Streetbugs encourages people to 'get others to do it' when OSM should be encouraging them to 'do it yourself' While it'd be nice if people would fix any problems themselves, I don't think OSM's website is at the point where some granny can just quickly/easily sign up and tweak a few things, there is simply too many alien concepts for most people to grasp quickly and easily. Find some random non-technical family member and try and explain it to them some time. Yes, I fully understand the problems, but I think that, in principle, OSM should be encouraging community participation. Streetbugs, as it stands, doesn't do this. In the mean time if they can quickly explain the problem people could explain to the person reporting it how to fix it. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
SteveC wrote: On Feb 21, 2010, at 8:03 AM, Dave F. wrote: How is zooming all the way in repeatedly panning around to centre up, quicker than one click to _accurately_ locate the problem? Hi, you've never done a UI review. http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/UX_and_Usability_Study Money quote: Every user in this study struggled to get a basic grasp of the editing interface. Despite users’ overall excitement about Wikipedia, their willingness to spend up to an hour on the site, and varying levels of computer expertise, they largely failed to make edits correctly without repeated attempts and efforts. It would be worse for OSM. Ir shouldn't be. What proof do you have for that? You're comparing oranges with apples. With OSM being vector graphics icons, it's much easier to get to grips with than a scripting language. (As a side point, I think all references to XML format data should be banned from the wiki. It's too confusing not relevant for newbies.) Initial points after skimming your link: 15 is not a big enough set for accurate conclusions. Even worse it was vetted down, removing users who were willing editors. This gives a distorted view on how user friendly it is. And they were just from SF. Environment plays a big part in opinion surveys like this. Going on the photo' for the remote sessions it's results are hardly surprising - uncomfortable seats, broom cupboard room (I bet it got hot in there) poor posture positions. Most OSM users will learn at their own pace in the comfort of their own homes. I got to grips with OSM fairly quickly, yet I've still not worked out how to edit a wiki properly. 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_. Horrendous. A total PITA. We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. You have to take a step back here and realise what we're missing out on. You really are a grade A tosser. When most people here treat others with respect, why do you have to degenerate it into a juvenile, Youtube style slanging match? What do you think Granny's reaction will be when she reads this? Sorry, And so you should be. do you disagree with any specific point I made? I disagree with you general attitude. Regards Dave F. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Dave F. wrote: Hi, you've never done a UI review. http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/UX_and_Usability_Study Money quote: Every user in this study struggled to get a basic grasp of the editing interface. Despite users’ overall excitement about Wikipedia, their willingness to spend up to an hour on the site, and varying levels of computer expertise, they largely failed to make edits correctly without repeated attempts and efforts. It would be worse for OSM. Ir shouldn't be. What proof do you have for that? Oh, please. do you disagree with any specific point I made? I disagree with you general attitude. Yawn. Yours c. Steve ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
Instead of whining about the good and and and the ugly of osm.org and Potlatch and speculating some stats who is contributing to osm # Planet + daily diff from 2010-02-20 total users, with 0 objects in a planet file: 66949 total users, with 10 objects in a planet file: 42450 # North America extract from Nov 2009 total users, with 0 objects: 8043 total users, with 10 objects: 4723 # Germany from Geofabrik total users, with 0 objects: 24172 total users, with 10 objects: 16421 users with less than 10 objects are probably not active anymore and their contributions have been reworked or they haven't done anything useful at all. an even stricter user count quoted from recent talk 8173 as of the beginning of the month, I think. See http://www.flickr.com/photos/itoworld/4360166105 Don't have the total number of users but remember it was 130k long time back Now my speculations. 1/3 -1/2 of users with an account are present in planet 2/3 of active users contributed more than the Potlatch live mode error in their first and last edits the stricter definition of active users reduces these numbers to 1/8 +1/3 of active users in germany Except for germany I would say Osm contributions is still a project for geeks and this will not change anytime soon. OSB or other bug entry systems for non mappers are pointless until the experienced user base is big enough to be willing to work on bugs rather their own interests. OSB is really cool idea but definitely lacks 2 features - add pictures, now all smart-phones have gps and camera. a pic will tell more than any description. this is easy for anyone to take pics of turn restrictions, speed limits, all kinds of POI. I use Josm with geotagged pics and this is better than anything else and much faster than notebooks, walking papers … - no contact info. as a mapper it's not possible to verify and ask for more details. sure anonymous bugs should be allowed but many people are willing to share their contact email and will love the idea to get points for a certain number of bugs, or a voting system ala amazon reviews might attract non mappers. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
The problem with your analysis is pretty simple - maybe those people left because the site was crap, not because they inherently don't like adding more than 10 things. Maybe if we make it better, they will add a lot more. On Feb 21, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: Instead of whining about the good and and and the ugly of osm.org and Potlatch and speculating some stats who is contributing to osm # Planet + daily diff from 2010-02-20 total users, with 0 objects in a planet file: 66949 total users, with 10 objects in a planet file: 42450 # North America extract from Nov 2009 total users, with 0 objects: 8043 total users, with 10 objects: 4723 # Germany from Geofabrik total users, with 0 objects: 24172 total users, with 10 objects: 16421 users with less than 10 objects are probably not active anymore and their contributions have been reworked or they haven't done anything useful at all. an even stricter user count quoted from recent talk 8173 as of the beginning of the month, I think. See http://www.flickr.com/photos/itoworld/4360166105 Don't have the total number of users but remember it was 130k long time back Now my speculations. 1/3 -1/2 of users with an account are present in planet 2/3 of active users contributed more than the Potlatch live mode error in their first and last edits the stricter definition of active users reduces these numbers to 1/8 +1/3 of active users in germany Except for germany I would say Osm contributions is still a project for geeks and this will not change anytime soon. That's totally moronic. OSB or other bug entry systems for non mappers are pointless until the experienced user base is big enough to be willing to work on bugs rather their own interests. No, we need to keep innovating not living in 1991. OSB is really cool idea but definitely lacks 2 features - add pictures, now all smart-phones have gps and camera. a pic will tell more than any description. this is easy for anyone to take pics of turn restrictions, speed limits, all kinds of POI. I use Josm with geotagged pics and this is better than anything else and much faster than notebooks, walking papers … - no contact info. as a mapper it's not possible to verify and ask for more details. sure anonymous bugs should be allowed but many people are willing to share their contact email and will love the idea to get points for a certain number of bugs, or a voting system ala amazon reviews might attract non mappers. Yours c. Steve ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 00:09, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: The problem with your analysis is pretty simple - maybe those people left because the site was crap, not because they inherently don't like adding more than 10 things. Maybe if we make it better, they will add a lot more. OSM, the website, the tools, the interface has to be made easier to use, both for mapmakers and mapusers. I really welcome tools like the wonderful mapbox.com (for devs) and cloudmade poi collector (for mapusers). This is the way to go. And surely a simplification of UX for the main site is a good thing. And goes along with the others. -- -S ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-talk] OSM front page design concept
On 21 Feb 2010, at 15:09 , SteveC wrote: The problem with your analysis is pretty simple - maybe those people left because the site was crap, not because they inherently don't like adding more than 10 things. Maybe if we make it better, they will add a lot more. I can't agree or disagree here. It's just numbers. I am sure other opensource projects and especially wikipedia will have similar patterns. though their numbers might be completely different. until someone contacts a statistical sample of users and ask why this is pure speculation. some interesting questions - how many users have a GIS, Software background? - which tool, osm.org, wiki, lack of documentation, lack of support, … stopped them this could be done when we move to the new license and all active users have to be contacted anyway and might shed some light on the motivation just in case you forgot. Tom said it many times. fix it, send patches. I am sure Richard will say the same for Potlatch. ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
