Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[joost schouppe]

I agree that knowing which roads are toll and which aren't is super
interesting. However, there's plenty of trunk roads that are toll in South
America and there are quite a few motorways in France that aren't toll.

Really, I think we need a road-focused mapstyle that shows paved/unpaved
and toll/no toll information first. I don't think trying to convey all of
this in OSM-carto is ever going to work.
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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Paul Fox]

i'm mostly a read-only participant on this list, but i do have a
question:  i'm currently seeing several places where the map
style changes based on my zoom level.  i assume this is a caching
problem, likely in my browser (google chrome).  should i be
surprised at this?  it's a little disconcerting when the style
of a road changes while zooming in or out, or at a single zoom
level at a tile boundary, as in this screenshot:
http://www.foxharp.boston.ma.us/tmp/sr48-screen.png
(at other than zoom 16, the SR48 is amber, not red.)

paul
=--
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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Jo]

I find it strange to see many people arguing that there should be a

> similarity between street signs and the colour used on the map. Germany,
>> for example, uses blue motorway signs exclusively,
>>
>
> I'm not sure if I read this right, but the Netherlands, Belgium and France
> also use blue signs to indicate motorways.
>
> Belgium uses green signs for motorways. On maps I always saw orange/yellow
with two red bands. I guess I only look at Michelin's maps before...

 I had gotten used to the odd 'UK' colour scheme. I guess we'll get used to
this new colour scheme as well, eventually.

Polyglot
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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Simon Poole]

Am 02.11.2015 um 10:03 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
>
> +1, especially tertiary roads now tend to merge into blobs, e.g. here: 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/41.85901/12.49464
>
>
-1 given that you can always find specific situations in which a one
size fits all rendering fails, in the previous style there are tons of
while blobs made out of residential class roads, didn't stop anybody
from using the map.



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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-11-02 10:33 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole :

> Which
> interesting enough however doesn't use every imaginable colour for their
> road network either
>
> https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/osmaps/#53.00818632749056,-1.4402046835289466
> and essentially only differentiates between three road types.
>



and creates misleading / very hard to read situations like this (confusion
motorway/rivers):
[image: Inline-Bild 1]

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Maarten Deen]

On 2015-11-01 18:09, Amaroussi (OpenStreetMap) wrote:

Hi all,

I have been gathering thoughts from the talk-gb list and my main
concern now is how the tertiary roads are shown, especially in
countries where people map roads according to quality and hierarchy
(and there are more than one). In Greece, tertiary roads connect all
villages while in Thailand, tertiary roads have an important use in
referring to roads with four digit numbers.

While I believe that the new rendering has potential, I am suggesting
that in order to resolve concerns about the portrayal of tertiary
roads, the motorways on the mainstream style should be blue, purple or
violet instead of the current shade of rose. This would free up rose
for trunk roads, red for primary roads and so on until yellow for
tertiary.


I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad choice. 
It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also in 
lots of other countries in europe.
But that is not really the issue. It is not that a colorscheme should 
follow the colorscheme of a particular country per se. The current color 
scheme just makes it hard to distinguish roads. Teritary roads, being 
white, are all but unrecognizable. Looking at motorways, trunk roads or 
primary roads, I can not tell one from the other, except when I see two 
next to eachother.
Furthermore, on high zooms, roads have gotten too fat. It makes the map 
look bulky.


The colorscheme for roads is defintely a step back from the previous.

Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 11/02/2015 09:40 AM, Maarten Deen wrote:
> I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad choice. 
> It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also in 
> lots of other countries in europe.

I find it strange to see many people arguing that there should be a
similarity between street signs and the colour used on the map. Germany,
for example, uses blue motorway signs exclusively, but the first thing
that went out of the window when the German OSM style
(http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html) was created in 2011 was the
blue motorways ("nobody apart from the Brits likes that") ;)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Maarten Deen]

On 2015-11-02 10:30, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 11/02/2015 09:40 AM, Maarten Deen wrote:
I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad 
choice.
It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also 
in

lots of other countries in europe.


I find it strange to see many people arguing that there should be a
similarity between street signs and the colour used on the map. 
Germany,

for example, uses blue motorway signs exclusively,


I'm not sure if I read this right, but the Netherlands, Belgium and 
France also use blue signs to indicate motorways.


But I also say "It is not that a colorscheme should follow the 
colorscheme of a particular country per se", so IMHO it should not be a 
consideration. I was merely pointing out that it was not limited to the 
UK alone.


Regards,
Maarten


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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 02.11.2015 um 09:40 schrieb Maarten Deen :
> 
> Teritary roads, being white, are all but unrecognizable. Looking at 
> motorways, trunk roads or primary roads, I can not tell one from the other, 
> except when I see two next to eachother.
> Furthermore, on high zooms, roads have gotten too fat. It makes the map look 
> bulky.


+1, especially tertiary roads now tend to merge into blobs, e.g. here: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/41.85901/12.49464

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Simon Poole]

Am 02.11.2015 um 09:40 schrieb Maarten Deen:
>
> I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad
> choice. It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in
> blue also in lots of other countries in europe.
And in lots of countries in Europe they are signposted in green. I'm not
quite sure why we are being held ransom to a questionable decision which
was made (not so long ago) by an unrelated third party. Which
interesting enough however doesn't use every imaginable colour for their
road network either
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/osmaps/#53.00818632749056,-1.4402046835289466
and essentially only differentiates between three road types.
> But that is not really the issue. It is not that a colorscheme should
> follow the colorscheme of a particular country per se. The current
> color scheme just makes it hard to distinguish roads. Teritary roads,
> being white, are all but unrecognizable. Looking at motorways, trunk
> roads or primary roads, I can not tell one from the other, except when
> I see two next to eachother.
> Furthermore, on high zooms, roads have gotten too fat. It makes the
> map look bulky.
>
> The colorscheme for roads is defintely a step back from the previous.
I think you'll find that most find that it is a big step forward. if you
go back and look at the material provided during the (very very public)
development and discussion of the changes, or just compare with the
French style (which uses the previous colour scheme), it is very obvious
that the road network is rendered substantially better now. Your straw
man: "I have to be able to recognize each single road type in isolation"
is simply not realistic for a map that is supposed to include everything
else too.

Simon



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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-11-02 10:51 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole :

> -1 given that you can always find specific situations in which a one
> size fits all rendering fails, in the previous style there are tons of
> while blobs made out of residential class roads, didn't stop anybody
> from using the map.
>



examples? IMHO, a residential road has to have some minimum width, a 2
metres wide alley (total width, no pavement) in a historic town center
should be tagged as an alley, for instance. Similarly, a highway=pedestrian
should be a road that is pedestrianized, not a small footway/alley inside a
"pedestrian" zone.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Amaroussi (OpenStreetMap)]

Hi,

The only immediate main problem I have is the Tertiary roads due to many 
countries using it as well, but other than that I still offer to mediate any 
potential dispute over the road colours, and for that I have suggested that the 
British/Heritage/Legacy/whatever you like to call it layer be added as soon as 
a tile server for that goes live.

No, I’m not throwing a temper tantrum over the change in the layer, but I was 
thinking how I could manage the change for UK users.

— Amaroussi

> On 2 Nov 2015, at 09:30, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On 11/02/2015 09:40 AM, Maarten Deen wrote:
>> I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad choice. 
>> It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also in 
>> lots of other countries in europe.
> 
> I find it strange to see many people arguing that there should be a
> similarity between street signs and the colour used on the map. Germany,
> for example, uses blue motorway signs exclusively, but the first thing
> that went out of the window when the German OSM style
> (http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html) was created in 2011 was the
> blue motorways ("nobody apart from the Brits likes that") ;)
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
> 
> -- 
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
> 
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev


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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Andy Robinson]

+1

Cheers
Andy

-Original Message-
From: Maarten Deen [mailto:md...@xs4all.nl] 
Sent: 02 November 2015 08:40
To: dev@openstreetmap.org; talk...@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

On 2015-11-01 18:09, Amaroussi (OpenStreetMap) wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I have been gathering thoughts from the talk-gb list and my main 
> concern now is how the tertiary roads are shown, especially in 
> countries where people map roads according to quality and hierarchy 
> (and there are more than one). In Greece, tertiary roads connect all 
> villages while in Thailand, tertiary roads have an important use in 
> referring to roads with four digit numbers.
> 
> While I believe that the new rendering has potential, I am suggesting 
> that in order to resolve concerns about the portrayal of tertiary 
> roads, the motorways on the mainstream style should be blue, purple or 
> violet instead of the current shade of rose. This would free up rose 
> for trunk roads, red for primary roads and so on until yellow for 
> tertiary.

I agree that the abandonging of the blue for motorways is a bad choice. 
It is not only a british color, motorways are signalled in blue also in lots of 
other countries in europe.
But that is not really the issue. It is not that a colorscheme should follow 
the colorscheme of a particular country per se. The current color scheme just 
makes it hard to distinguish roads. Teritary roads, being white, are all but 
unrecognizable. Looking at motorways, trunk roads or primary roads, I can not 
tell one from the other, except when I see two next to eachother.
Furthermore, on high zooms, roads have gotten too fat. It makes the map look 
bulky.

The colorscheme for roads is defintely a step back from the previous.

Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Richard Fairhurst]

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> other UK cartographers used green for non-primary roads

(I meant "primary A roads", of course, or in OSM parlance "trunk")

Richard



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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Richard Fairhurst]

SimonPoole wrote:
> And in lots of countries in Europe they are signposted in green. I'm 
> not quite sure why we are being held ransom to a questionable 
> decision which was made (not so long ago) by an unrelated third 
> party. Which interesting enough however doesn't use every 
> imaginable colour for their road network either
> https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/osmaps/#53.00818632749056,-1.4402046835289466

For the eighty gazillionth time:

The old OSM style did not use blue, green and red because these were
"Ordnance Survey" colours. The old OSM style used blue, green and red
because they were the standard British map colours. In particular, other UK
cartographers used green for non-primary roads long before OS did (I think
OS only switched in the late '90s).

If you want to find a commercial prototype for OSM then the AA maps are a
little closer, but actually the colours were directly taken from a map I did
for the Cotswold Canals Trust, slightly desaturated:
https://twitter.com/richardf/status/632185970037657600

I'm not saying that because I have a particular animus towards the new style
(I agree that a change was long overdue, and greatly respect the work that
the osm-carto team have put into it); I simply want to squash this erroneous
idea that the old colours were OS-derived.

Incidentally, the old shields (which should have been taken out back and
shot a long time ago, and I'm glad they're gone) were not remotely OS
either, as some people have excitedly claimed, but were an unintentional
echo of British Railways totem signs from the 1950s:
http://website.lineone.net/~alan.c.edwards/railsign.html

Richard




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[OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Amaroussi (OpenStreetMap)]

Hi all,

I have been gathering thoughts from the talk-gb list and my main concern now is 
how the tertiary roads are shown, especially in countries where people map 
roads according to quality and hierarchy (and there are more than one). In 
Greece, tertiary roads connect all villages while in Thailand, tertiary roads 
have an important use in referring to roads with four digit numbers.

While I believe that the new rendering has potential, I am suggesting that in 
order to resolve concerns about the portrayal of tertiary roads, the motorways 
on the mainstream style should be blue, purple or violet instead of the current 
shade of rose. This would free up rose for trunk roads, red for primary roads 
and so on until yellow for tertiary.

The ability for OSM to render the “British” colours alongside the new style 
colours would depend on what resources they have, but I will support adding an 
alternative layer to the main site that uses the “British” colours, as soon as 
the alternative tile server goes live: it is clear that there is no clear 
standard for how roads are coloured. I will suggest however that the “British” 
stylesheet be based from the main openstreetmap-carto style, in order to ease 
maintenance.

Best,

— Amaroussi
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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Tom Hughes]

On 01/11/15 17:09, Amaroussi (OpenStreetMap) wrote:


The ability for OSM to render the “British” colours alongside the new style 
colours would depend on what resources they have, but I will support adding an 
alternative layer to the main site that uses the “British” colours, as soon as 
the alternative tile server goes live: it is clear that there is no clear 
standard for how roads are coloured. I will suggest however that the “British” 
stylesheet be based from the main openstreetmap-carto style, in order to ease 
maintenance.


Why do you think a British style should get special treatment I wonder?

Should we have a French style and a US style and a Chinese style and...

I mean how exactly do you propose to decide which national styles should 
get special treatment?


Tom

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http://compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-dev] New Map Style feedback

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 01.11.2015 um 18:26 schrieb Tom Hughes :
> 
> Should we have a French style and a US style and a Chinese style and...
> 
> I mean how exactly do you propose to decide which national styles should get 
> special treatment?


ideally we should cater for all local/regional/national particularities (at 
least those that can be generally understood), e.g. in the US road shields are 
important, in cities with an underground/metro system, the specific logo would 
be nice to have, the japanese have crossings labeled in a typical way, 

Color schemes for roads seem less important to me, but apparently the British 
are quite attached to their scheme, so why not (other map providers do indeed 
use a particular scheme there)

cheers 
Martin 
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