Re: [OSM-dev] Rendering of long street names for short streets
On 18 Jul 2009, at 09:13, Michael Ritzert wrote: Hi, Florian Lohoff wrote: Putting explicit abbreviation onto all streets is a huge overkill. I'd rather vote for a simple abbreviation dictionary in the svn which is renderer agnostic. I am not shure on how to include the abbreviation then as the renderer would need to chose the name based on the space available. I had once (locally) tested a patch for t...@h to try and find shorter names for streets when there is little space. The patch itself was rather easy, but getting the location dependency in the process was harder. For my tests, I created an input file where each road had the is_in tag correctly set. With this information, I was able to distinguish between for example Spanish Calles which are abbreviated as C/ (and several other options) or left out completely and Italian Calles to be shortened to C.le. Do not use the freeform is_in tag, as it just bloats the data with unnecessary information. It is also very difficult to parse due to its freeform nature. Get a set of country polygons and test to see which one each street is inside of. Shaun ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Rendering of long street names for short streets
On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 10:29:25AM +0100, Shaun McDonald wrote: Do not use the freeform is_in tag, as it just bloats the data with unnecessary information. It is also very difficult to parse due to its freeform nature. Get a set of country polygons and test to see which one each street is inside of. The problem with those polyons are that they are not fast - To make this usable for renderers one needs to apply a lot of optimization and precomputing. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@rfc822.org Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither - Benjamin Franklin signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Rendering of long street names for short streets
Michael Ritzert wrote: For a more thorough solution, having a somewhat reliable way to find at least the country a road is in would be required. I think a lot of applications would find this extremely useful, from rendering different shapes for road number symbols and colours to recognizing postcode format if you know the street name. But it would have to be fast. David ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Rendering of long street names for short streets
On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 02:18, Florian Lohofff...@rfc822.org wrote: Putting explicit abbreviation onto all streets is a huge overkill. I'd rather vote for a simple abbreviation dictionary in the svn which is renderer agnostic. I am not shure on how to include the abbreviation then as the renderer would need to chose the name based on the space available. Having a standard set of abbreviations sounds good, but I think that a tag is also necessary. There are places where names can be abbreviated because of nearby streets with similar names, but where the abbreviation wouldn't make sense elsewhere. For instance, in my city, there is a short street called Anderson Square which you have to travel on in order to get from one segment of Anderson Lane to another. Putting And. Sq. on a map here would make sense, but I would disagree with the idea that Anderson = And. works in all situations. The street name above does exist in nearly every town in Germany so it makes sense to create the correct abbreviations once ... On the other hand, the streets named after Martin Luther King in the city where I live and the one where I went to university are abbreviated different ways by locals (one uses MLK, the other uses just King), and neither is what I'd use as the shortest standard abbreviation (M L King). -- David J. Lynch djly...@gmail.com ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Rendering of long street names for short streets
On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 11:10:53AM +0800, Arne Goetje wrote: Hi list, in Taiwan we have the situation, that street names may be too long to be rendered on the map. In addition, we'd like to keep the map bilingual (Chinese, Romanized/English), which makes the names rendered on the map even longer. How can we give the renderer some hints how to abbreviate the street names properly in different zoom levels? Would it be possible to specify multiple alternative entries in the 'name' tag and the renderer picks whatever fits onto the map? I guess a lot of countries have this requirement: For example Germany has names like Annette-von-Droste-Hülshoff-Straße which could be abbreviated down to A.-v.-D.-Hülshoff-Str. or even AvD-Hülshoff-Str. Putting explicit abbreviation onto all streets is a huge overkill. I'd rather vote for a simple abbreviation dictionary in the svn which is renderer agnostic. I am not shure on how to include the abbreviation then as the renderer would need to chose the name based on the space available. The street name above does exist in nearly every town in Germany so it makes sense to create the correct abbreviations once ... Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@rfc822.org Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither - Benjamin Franklin signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Rendering of long street names for short streets
On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Florian Lohofff...@rfc822.org wrote: Putting explicit abbreviation onto all streets is a huge overkill. I'd rather vote for a simple abbreviation dictionary in the svn Some dictionnary like this one on the wiki : http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_finder:Abbreviations This is a renderer issue. It is also the software to decide whether it has enough space to print the full name or require some abbreviations depending on the zoom level. About your question: For the rendering options: just put them all in the 'name' tag, separated by ';' ? I would say no because you tag for the renderer in this case. The tag 'name' is the local name. Then use another tag for the romanized/English name (name:en ?). Then if you want to see both on a map, you have to do it in the renderer itself. Pieren ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
[OSM-dev] Rendering of long street names for short streets
Hi list, in Taiwan we have the situation, that street names may be too long to be rendered on the map. In addition, we'd like to keep the map bilingual (Chinese, Romanized/English), which makes the names rendered on the map even longer. How can we give the renderer some hints how to abbreviate the street names properly in different zoom levels? Would it be possible to specify multiple alternative entries in the 'name' tag and the renderer picks whatever fits onto the map? For example: A very common naming scheme for small alleys is to number them according to their location on the main road. When a lane/alley is located between house numbers 8 and 12, it would carry the number 10. The naming scheme is: * Main Road (路/街/道) -- optionally with Section (段) * Chinese: 介壽路二段 * Full romanized/English name: Jieshou Road Section 2 (or: Section 2 Jieshou Road) * Abbr.: Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2 (or: Sec. 2 Jieshou Rd.) * Lane (巷) * Full Chinese name: 介壽路二段325巷 * Full romanized/English name: Lane 325, Jieshou Road Section 2 * Chinese abbr.: 325巷 (rendered next to the associated main road on Chinese maps) * Romanized/English abbr.: Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2 * Further abbrevation: Ln. 325 (rendered next to the associated main road) * Alley (弄) * Full Chinese name: 介壽路二段325巷1弄 * Full romanized/English name: Alley 1, Lane 325, Jieshou Road Section 2 * Chinese abbr.: 325巷1弄 (or: 1弄 rendered next to the associated lane) * Romanized/English abbr.: Aly. 1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2 * Further abbrevation.: Aly. 1, Ln. 325 (or: Aly. 1 rendered next to the associated lane) * Cross-Alley (衖) * Full Chinese name: 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 * Full romanized/English name: Alley 1-1, Lane 325, Jieshou Road Section 2 * Chinese abbr.: 325巷1弄1衖 (or: 1弄1衖, or: 1衖) * Romanized/English abbr.: Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2 * Further abbr.: Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325 (or: Aly. 1-1) Now: a user would search for either the full Chinese name, or the most complete romanized/English abbreviation, but not the full romanized/English name (nobody uses that one). So, the database and routing engine would need to know those entries: * Chinese: 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 （actually it would need the full address, which would include city and county, except for bigger cities, there the county is omitted) * Romanized/English: Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2 On the map however, the lanes and alleys are usually quite short. We do prefer to render the names bilingual, i.e. Chinese name (romanized/English name) - 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2), but fall back to Chinese only if the alleys are even too short for the abbreviations below (Sometimes alleys are just 20 Meters long). So, it would be nice if we could tag the roads with a list of alternatives for the renderer to pick from in order to render the street name according to the zoom level. e.g.: * 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2) * 325巷1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325) * 1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1) * 325巷1弄1衖 * 1弄1衖 * 1衖 For the rendering options: just put them all in the 'name' tag, separated by ';' ? For the rendering position, I was thinking: maybe this could be done with relations? E.g.: 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 is a member of 介壽路二段325巷1弄, which is a member of 介壽路二段325巷, which is a member of 介壽路二段, which is a member of 八德市 (city), which is a member of 桃園縣 (county). If we would build up relations like that and also include the house numbers, would we be able to find the house if we provide the full address in one string (e.g. 桃園縣八德市介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖39號)? Or would we need to tag each house with the full address individually? How about postal codes? Also use relations for that? (E.g. a relation for postal code 33444 would include all the roads, lanes, alleys and houses)? Would Mapnik/Osmarender be able to handle such constructs? Cheers Arne -- Arne Götje (高盛華) a...@linux.org.tw PGP/GnuPG key: 1024D/685D1E8C Fingerprint: 2056 F6B7 DEA8 B478 311F 1C34 6E9F D06E 685D 1E8C Key available at wwwkeys.pgp.net. Encrypted e-mail preferred. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] Rendering of long street names for short streets
I've actually been thinking of suggesting an :abbr suffix key to all name-accepting tags (name, name:en, name:fr, alt_name, int_name, etc.) and the values are a semicolon-separated list of abbreviations. This is backwards compatible since existing tools can still use the base name tags and ignore the :abbr tags. But for renderers and namefinder tools that need abbreviated names, then can then look into the :abbr tags and select the one which fits the space or matches a query. Example: name=Epifanio delos Santos Avenue name:abbr=Epifanio delos Santos Ave.;E. delos Santos Ave.;EDSA name=Asian Development Bank Headquarters name:abbr=ADB HQ;ADB Another advantage is that this frees the alt_name key for truly alternate names. Some people place the abbreviation/acronym into the alt_name which doesn't seem correct since the abbreviation is still the same name, just shortened, and not an alternate. Example: name=Sen. Gil J. Puyat Avenue name:abbr=Sen. Gil J. Puyat Ave.;Sen. Gil Puyat Ave.;Gil Puyat Ave.;Gil Puyat alt_name=Buendia Avenue alt_name:abbr=Buendia Ave.;Buendia old_name=Buendia Avenue old_name:abbr=Buendia Ave.;Buendia I haven't thought yet of how to handle standard abbreviations (like Avenue - Ave., Street - St., Road - Rd., North - N.) so that the abbr: tags need not specify these explicitly. On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Arne Goetje a...@linux.org.tw wrote: Hi list, in Taiwan we have the situation, that street names may be too long to be rendered on the map. In addition, we'd like to keep the map bilingual (Chinese, Romanized/English), which makes the names rendered on the map even longer. How can we give the renderer some hints how to abbreviate the street names properly in different zoom levels? Would it be possible to specify multiple alternative entries in the 'name' tag and the renderer picks whatever fits onto the map? For example: A very common naming scheme for small alleys is to number them according to their location on the main road. When a lane/alley is located between house numbers 8 and 12, it would carry the number 10. The naming scheme is: * Main Road (路/街/道) -- optionally with Section (段) * Chinese: 介壽路二段 * Full romanized/English name: Jieshou Road Section 2 (or: Section 2 Jieshou Road) * Abbr.: Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2 (or: Sec. 2 Jieshou Rd.) * Lane (巷) * Full Chinese name: 介壽路二段325巷 * Full romanized/English name: Lane 325, Jieshou Road Section 2 * Chinese abbr.: 325巷 (rendered next to the associated main road on Chinese maps) * Romanized/English abbr.: Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2 * Further abbrevation: Ln. 325 (rendered next to the associated main road) * Alley (弄) * Full Chinese name: 介壽路二段325巷1弄 * Full romanized/English name: Alley 1, Lane 325, Jieshou Road Section 2 * Chinese abbr.: 325巷1弄 (or: 1弄 rendered next to the associated lane) * Romanized/English abbr.: Aly. 1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2 * Further abbrevation.: Aly. 1, Ln. 325 (or: Aly. 1 rendered next to the associated lane) * Cross-Alley (衖) * Full Chinese name: 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 * Full romanized/English name: Alley 1-1, Lane 325, Jieshou Road Section 2 * Chinese abbr.: 325巷1弄1衖 (or: 1弄1衖, or: 1衖) * Romanized/English abbr.: Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2 * Further abbr.: Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325 (or: Aly. 1-1) Now: a user would search for either the full Chinese name, or the most complete romanized/English abbreviation, but not the full romanized/English name (nobody uses that one). So, the database and routing engine would need to know those entries: * Chinese: 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 （actually it would need the full address, which would include city and county, except for bigger cities, there the county is omitted) * Romanized/English: Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2 On the map however, the lanes and alleys are usually quite short. We do prefer to render the names bilingual, i.e. Chinese name (romanized/English name) - 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2), but fall back to Chinese only if the alleys are even too short for the abbreviations below (Sometimes alleys are just 20 Meters long). So, it would be nice if we could tag the roads with a list of alternatives for the renderer to pick from in order to render the street name according to the zoom level. e.g.: * 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325, Jieshou Rd. Sec. 2) * 325巷1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1, Ln. 325) * 1弄1衖 (Aly. 1-1) * 325巷1弄1衖 * 1弄1衖 * 1衖 For the rendering options: just put them all in the 'name' tag, separated by ';' ? For the rendering position, I was thinking: maybe this could be done with relations? E.g.: 介壽路二段325巷1弄1衖 is a member of 介壽路二段325巷1弄, which is a member of 介壽路二段325巷, which is a member of 介壽路二段, which is a member of 八德市 (city), which is a member of 桃園縣 (county). If we would build up relations like that and also include the house numbers, would we be able to find the house if we provide the full address in one string (e.g.
Re: [OSM-dev] Rendering of long street names for short streets
On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 5:33 AM, Eugene Alvin Villarsea...@gmail.com wrote: I've actually been thinking of suggesting an :abbr suffix key to all name-accepting tags (name, name:en, name:fr, alt_name, int_name, etc.) and the values are a semicolon-separated list of abbreviations. This is backwards compatible since existing tools can still use the base name tags and ignore the :abbr tags. But for renderers and namefinder tools that need abbreviated names, then can then look into the :abbr tags and select the one which fits the space or matches a query. That would be a lot of redundant data considering the standard-abbreviations. Also think about the fact the abbreviations are language-dependent. So there are different abbreviations based on what language-variant of the name you are using. Marcus ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
