Re: [OSM-dev] Simple app for "making contributions" (not to display maps)

[Simon Poole]

Am 29.06.2016 um 14:33 schrieb Rory McCann:
> Hi,
>
> One could claim that Maps.me is an attempt to make a simple to use
> smartphone app for non-technical people to contribute data to OSM. It
> doesn't require aerial imagery, nor always-on internet access.
>
It is weird that everybody is falling for the same trap of completely
forgetting (or is it just mail.ru marketing?) all the apps and programs
that have come and gone that have promised simple contributing ...
starting off with the Mapzen POI collector. Fact is none of them have
really delivered on the promise and essentially all have cut corners in
one way or the other.

If there is nothing mapped in an area having a (pre-cached) imagery
layer is a plus, not a minus.



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Re: [OSM-dev] Simple app for "making contributions" (not to display maps)

[Bjoern Hassler]

Hi Simon, Rory, Guillaume, Frederik, Martin, Mikael,

Thank you for your input - that's very helpful and appreciated. Let me try
a digest reply. Overall, I'm thinking of something much simpler than
displaying maps. Overall, there's (at least) two different areas:
(1) Traces
(2) Tags / resolving bugs

** On traces **

> On 29 June 2016 at 13:41, Simon Poole wrote: In general I'm not convinced
that raw GPS tracks are of a lot of use without additional information in
areas that might not have a well established road network, ...

It may not be without additional information - see next answer.

> Who is "we" in this context?

E.g. I'm working with teachers in Ghana, where mentors travel to
schools/colleges to give support. They do have tablets/smart phones with
GPS. GPS Logger probably comes closest to what we could use (
http://code.mendhak.com/gpslogger/), mainly because it offers to auto
upload a trace. So for us, that could work, because we have a set of known
users (and can receive traces via dropbox/email/etc). We tried OSMAnd
previously, but because GPX cannot be sent automatically, it was too
tricky. (Similarly for OSMTracker.) We're yet to try GPS Logger. But
suppose we were to work with users less well known to us:

*Scenario A ("friends of friends" contributions): *For other users, GPS
Logger can also upload to OSM. Suppose we'd ask friends in certain towns to
use the tool, as a "semi-anonymous" mapping campaign in that town, we'd
then have to find those traces on OSM (or at least be notified that a
relevant trace has come in). *How would you do this? It doesn't seem as if
you can search for traces in particular areas?*

*Scenario B (crowd contributions): *Something similar to OSM Logger, but
that could switch on automatically (e.g. when people are driving with GPS
enabled). "We're short of maps in this area? Do you want to help?" If the
users taps yes, then a trace is recorded and submitted (anonymously). This
could be stand alone, or (to provide an incentive to the user) be
integrated into OSMAnd/map.me etc.

Perhaps (if integrated into an app) the data would not be that useful
anyway (as Simon suggested), as you don't know what kind of track the user
is on. Stand-alone, you could ask the user some questions afterwards: Major
road yes/no, tarmac yes/no, etc.

On 29 June 2016 at 13:43, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> Your user's contributions would be immensely more

valuable if there was a way for them to at least record the information

whether they're currently on a path or travelling cross-terrain.
> (Sometimes this can be guessed from the speed of movement but not always.)
>

Agreed!

On 29 June 2016 at 13:34, Guillaume AMAT wrote:

> You're searching something I plan to implement in MapContrib (but I don't
> know when...), see https://github.com/MapContrib/MapContrib/issues/148.
> Is that issue the exact need of yours?
>

Yes, I think the issue above is similar to the way GPS Logger works. I'll
have a look at the app, and will comment if I have a suggestion. Also see
point about 'tags' below.

Rory, maps.me seems to be more aimed at using maps - certainly the site
doesn't foreground contributions. It's similar with OSMAnd - it can
display/add bugs/notes, and e.g. display the 'fixme' tag, but the main
purpose is to use maps.

** On tags * *

Apart from traces, it may also be helpful to fix tags / collect other
information. Here are some thoughts:

*(A) Location validation / resolving issues. *We've got a list of education
institutions, which we think is accurate on the whole. However, there are
also some errors. It would be great for us to have an app that could
validate locations (as a "friend sourcing" or "crowd sourcing" exercise).
You upload a set of locations into the app, and (over time, as a user
travels to a location) the app asks: "Are you now near XYZ school? Yes/no".
Over time, that would allow us to validate a large data set.

Similarly, extra information about map issues could be collected. E.g.
Vespucci also notifies you about nearby map issues, which is great.
However, on the whole the app has a different audience from what I have in
mind. So just the notification part of Vespucci, with the ability for the
user to respond.

*(B) Street names (and other POIs).* In some places there are roads, but
they don't have names (when the local roads do have street signs). Users
may be willing to contribute street names. Similarly, POIs could be added
in this way. E.g. the POI contribution in OSMAnd is useful, but ideally an
app would only have the "POI submission" feature.

Either the app shows the OSM tile or perhaps just a list of local POIs
(with geo-intent to visualise in other app). The user types name and POI
type, and data is submitted (with GPS accuracy). Optionally, the user might
answer some more questions, depending on the POI type (like opening hours,
etc). Also, perhaps the data is not added to OSM automatically, but perhaps
to a "crowd layer", where map editors then transfer the 

Re: [OSM-dev] Simple app for "making contributions" (not to display maps)

[Mikael Nordfeldth]

On 2016-06-29 14:04, Bjoern Hassler wrote:
> Is there interest in (or is anybody working on) creating an very
> simple-to-use app that allows "non-technical" users to contribute OSM
> information?

While I have to note that their web interface and processing backend is
proprietary (afaik), Mapillary is a great tool for contributing to OSM!
Especially to give "local knowledge" to remote mappers.

All the data available on their website (GPX tracks derived from app
recordings, the images themselves) are libre licensed and explicitly
there for using as a data source for the OSM database.

What their service does is, simplified:
   * users take photos along streets or highways
   * users upload photos to their service
   * photos are analyzed, connected and generates a 3d point cloud
   * connected photos can be "walked along" and used in JOSM, iD etc.

There is an app for Mapillary in iOS, Android and Windows mobile stores
(and a direct .apk download for Android on their website:
https://www.mapillary.com/ ) and it's extremely easy to get started
with. Register an account in-app and start taking pictures. When you're
at a wifi, choose to upload the images.

> E.g. a large red button for recording a trace with automatic
> upload (optimised for poorly internet connected environments, e.g. wait for
> wifi, upload in chunks etc; information submitted with GPS accuracy
> information).

Mapillary has upload resumption and things like image quality, photo
interval (timer or manual) can be set for smaller sized uploads.

Consequently you'll get street-level views along with a GPX trace.

Personally I combine it with OsmAnd or some other GPX recording program
so I track my whole bicycle ride and then bring out the camera to save
the "street view" when I am at a place with too many POIs/details to
remember.


Though as the zealot I am, I still feel somewhat uncomfortable using
their proprietary software but as mentioned, the resulting data is
available for OSM (or for replicating their service by downloading all
the images etc. if one were to write a libre software)

-- 
Mikael Nordfeldth
https://blog.mmn-o.se/
XMPP/mail: m...@hethane.se
OpenPGP Fingerprint: AE68 9813 0B7C FCE3 B2FA  727B C7CE 635B B52E 9B31



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Re: [OSM-dev] Simple app for "making contributions" (not to display maps)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 29 giu 2016, alle ore 14:04, Bjoern Hassler  
> ha scritto:
> 
> Is there interest in (or is anybody working on) creating an very 
> simple-to-use app that allows "non-technical" users to contribute OSM 
> information?


there are some simple apps available, e.g. Pushpin or maps.me (there are lots 
more of them, http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editors )
Generally editors that don't allow to change the geometry are simpler, but 
don't allow to perform certain corrections or additions.

While it is true that editing is never completely simple, a fair share of this 
is due to the complexity involved. There are some  people that can't read a 
map,  just because they have a smartphone now does not mean they can draw one.

I think a good way to make it simple is to reduce the scope. A dedicated app 
for (e.g.) petrol stations can ask the right questions and offer only those 
tags that are relevant. The more versatile the app gets, the more you will have 
to look for the gas station in the presets, and the more steps you'll have to 
go through.

Also every tag should be explained during insertion, e.g. that descriptions 
shouldn't go into name...

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-dev] Simple app for "making contributions" (not to display maps)

[Frederik Ramm]

Bjoern,

   not need to stress the inaccuracies of GPS - GPS traces is how this
whole OpenStreetMap started, long before we even had aerial imagery. To
this day some of the older hands in OSM consider using aerial imagery a
not quite sportsmanlike way of adding data a.k.a. "cheating" ;)

On 06/29/16 14:04, Bjoern Hassler wrote:
> (There are of course issues with GPS traces, so perhaps automated
> capture of GPS traces is not that useful.)

Automatically recorded tracks, even without any extra information, can
be useful but of course it always requires someone with local knowledge
to translate a raw GPS track into something that can be added into the
database proper. Your user's contributions would be immensely more
valuable if there was a way for them to at least record the information
whether they're currently on a path or travelling cross-terrain.
(Sometimes this can be guessed from the speed of movement but not always.)

When mapping on my own with GPS I always used the waypoint marker button
on the GPS to mark intersections; this makes it easier to work witht the
data later. However this information will not find its way into the
standard GPS trace background in editors; it is only available when you
work with the track directly.


Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-dev] Simple app for "making contributions" (not to display maps)

[Guillaume AMAT]

Hi Bjoern,

I'm the main developer MapContrib 
(https://github.com/MapContrib/MapContrib). One of the main purposes of 
the project is to be simple for users.


You're searching something I plan to implement in MapContrib (but I 
don't know when...), see 
https://github.com/MapContrib/MapContrib/issues/148.

Is that issue the exact need of yours?

Feel free to answer here and/or in the issue whenever you want.

Have a nice day,
Guillaume


Le 29/06/2016 14:04, Bjoern Hassler a écrit :

Hi all,

first post to the list - hope this is of interest.

The background to my question is working is areas where map coverage
is poor (e.g. parts of Africa). Sometimes only low-res satellite/bing
imagery is available, sometimes obscured by clouds. In some low
populated areas a GPS trace could be useful to map out roads
connecting settlements (despite inaccuracies of GPS).

There are many great OSM apps out there, including apps for recording
traces (e.g. OSM tracker, etc). However, unless I've missed it, I
would say that none of those apps is suitable for the "non-technical"
user. Indeed, we've tried using various such apps, and it's been
difficult in terms of usability.

Is there interest in (or is anybody working on) creating an very
simple-to-use app that allows "non-technical" users to contribute OSM
information? E.g. a large red button for recording a trace with
automatic upload (optimised for poorly internet connected
environments, e.g. wait for wifi, upload in chunks etc; information
submitted with GPS accuracy information).

(There are of course issues with GPS traces, so perhaps automated
capture of GPS traces is not that useful.)

Many thanks!
Bjoern


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Re: [OSM-dev] Simple app for "making contributions" (not to display maps)

[Rory McCann]

Hi,

One could claim that Maps.me is an attempt to make a simple to use
smartphone app for non-technical people to contribute data to OSM. It
doesn't require aerial imagery, nor always-on internet access.

Rory

On 29/06/16 14:04, Bjoern Hassler wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> first post to the list - hope this is of interest.
> 
> The background to my question is working is areas where map coverage is
> poor (e.g. parts of Africa). Sometimes only low-res satellite/bing
> imagery is available, sometimes obscured by clouds. In some low
> populated areas a GPS trace could be useful to map out roads connecting
> settlements (despite inaccuracies of GPS).
> 
> There are many great OSM apps out there, including apps for recording
> traces (e.g. OSM tracker, etc). However, unless I've missed it, I would
> say that none of those apps is suitable for the "non-technical" user.
> Indeed, we've tried using various such apps, and it's been difficult in
> terms of usability.
> 
> Is there interest in (or is anybody working on) creating an very
> simple-to-use app that allows "non-technical" users to contribute OSM
> information? E.g. a large red button for recording a trace with
> automatic upload (optimised for poorly internet connected environments,
> e.g. wait for wifi, upload in chunks etc; information submitted with GPS
> accuracy information).
> 
> (There are of course issues with GPS traces, so perhaps automated
> capture of GPS traces is not that useful.)
> 
> Many thanks!
> Bjoern
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[OSM-dev] Simple app for "making contributions" (not to display maps)

[Bjoern Hassler]

Hi all,

first post to the list - hope this is of interest.

The background to my question is working is areas where map coverage is
poor (e.g. parts of Africa). Sometimes only low-res satellite/bing imagery
is available, sometimes obscured by clouds. In some low populated areas a
GPS trace could be useful to map out roads connecting settlements (despite
inaccuracies of GPS).

There are many great OSM apps out there, including apps for recording
traces (e.g. OSM tracker, etc). However, unless I've missed it, I would say
that none of those apps is suitable for the "non-technical" user. Indeed,
we've tried using various such apps, and it's been difficult in terms of
usability.

Is there interest in (or is anybody working on) creating an very
simple-to-use app that allows "non-technical" users to contribute OSM
information? E.g. a large red button for recording a trace with automatic
upload (optimised for poorly internet connected environments, e.g. wait for
wifi, upload in chunks etc; information submitted with GPS accuracy
information).

(There are of course issues with GPS traces, so perhaps automated capture
of GPS traces is not that useful.)

Many thanks!
Bjoern
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